Twelve string steels.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 5 Jul 2010 4:01 pm

Is it time to make the Twelve string Pedal Steel the STANDARD? Many, many people say that 12 strings is the way to go because you can get 95% of E9th and C6th on one neck plus a lot of added stuff that you cannot get with 10 string steels. So, is it really worth carrying a double neck steel around for that little bit you might not get on a 12 stringer, considering that you get added stuff with 12 strings. Another thing to consider is positioning of the body...with a double neck you have to change position when you change necks..with a 12 stringer you can stay in one position, plus you can play with long sleeves and keep your wristwatch on. So, is it time to say bye, bye to the 10 stringer and make the 12 stringer standard..just like we made the 6 string guitar standard?

Larry Robertson · Post by **Larry Robertson** » 5 Jul 2010 5:55 pm

I've got 2 12 string uni guitars and I don't think I'll ever go back to D-10. I got the 2nd 12 string so I can keep one in the house. (I've got a second floor condo)Lots less weight, and everything is on one neck. I also carry the pedal bar & legs & rods in a fabric gun case I got at WalMart, so the guitar & case is really light. Sometimes I get some funny looks when I bring that gun case into the club!

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Jul 2010 6:34 pm

I've played 12 strings exclusively since the mid 70s but, as passionately as I believe it is the right configuration for me, there are a few hundred guys out there who play the major gigs and studios with only a very small handful who play anything other than 10 strings. All this, as usual, is JUST MY OPINION. I learned on 6-string and love having low guitar E (and then some) on pedal steel. 10 string E9 just doesn't have the low range I like to use.

That said, a 12-string is a great solution for some of us, but the numbers just aren't there to be a standard. For it to be a standard you'd have to have more 12 string players on hit records and playing for major acts. Yes, there are a few -- Eddie Long and a few others come to mind -- but there are many, many more who either play a S-10, S/D-10, or D-10 on the road or in the studios.

I guess it depends on your definition of standard, but by most measurements, we are in the distinct minority. Most of the 12 string players I know (me included) are in bands that perform locally or regionally rather than national acts, and even among the guys who gig locally/regionally, there are still many more 10-string players. Just my observation. Believe me, I'd like it to be so, it just ain't. $:\$

Try to find a S-12 all-pull Emmons or a Rains or Rittenberry or Jackson or several other notable brands. I talked Jeff Surratt into making me a U12 Show-Pro, but, last I heard, it was the only one. There are several brands that just don't make 12 strings. Not a standard . . . yet (I've only been saying that for 35 years).

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 6 Jul 2010 9:02 am

Brad Malone wrote:Is it time to make the Twelve string Pedal Steel the STANDARD? Many, many people say that 12 strings is the way to go because you can get 95% of E9th and C6th on one neck plus a lot of added stuff that you cannot get with 10 string steels.

I have two arguments against it.
1) Beginners are very intimidated by 12 strings.
Actually, beginners are intimidated by 10 strings too, but 12 is totally overwhelming.

2) I firmly believe that you can get 90% of the standard E9th and C6th vocabulary on an S-10*.
Is it worth adding two extra strings to wring out an additional 5%?

*I'm getting about 80% of E9th and C6th by "splitting the difference" on an S-8 tuned to D6th. If I added a high E for E9th "chromatic" licks and a low D for C6th "boo-wah", I'd be up to 90%.

Olli Haavisto · Post by **Olli Haavisto** » 6 Jul 2010 10:04 am

Why would it be good to standardize ? If you want to play a 14 stringer, great. If you want to use only 8-strings or maybe 6, great too.
D-10 is already more or less a standard and if you want to do something different you have a choice.

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 6 Jul 2010 1:05 pm

I started out with a U12 setup...dropped three pedals and have a 12 string (something). I did not add the D string so I can't call it an extended E9.
I mainly use my three lower strings 12,11,10 for bass runs and pad building.
If I didn't have my three Sierra 12's, I would definitely be a single neck 10 string player. Bob is correct...90% of basic to advance playing can be found on 10 strings.

Zane King · Post by **Zane King** » 6 Jul 2010 2:23 pm

Brad - great topic! You know my opinion on this already. However, I will say I'm okay with the options we currently have. What are those? As I see it, D10s, S10s, and S12. I do predict in coming years that S12s will be utilized more and more. Honestly, I will be one that will be attempting to reach every player I can to start on the S12. If a beginner just starts on the S12 it is no more complicated than anything else. If a guitar player starts playing steel they are likely to understand the "E" fretting better out of the gate.

I do like that word "standard". We are still a long ways from much of anything being standardized with the pedal steel guitar. I guess pedals are standard but how many? Knee levers are but how many? On and on. We will NOT have a standardized instrument until I can fly to every major U.S. city and rent a steel guitar! Just think about that. If I'm a concert pianist then I show up to the hall to perform I don't even have to play it in advance of the show. Wouldn't that be nice to show up at a gig and your guitar is there, tuned, and ready to play? Then the instrument would be standard! Oh and one more thing, most anyone would not have to ask "what is that person playing on the stage?".

We ARE going to get there and when we do we will play 12 strings. 12 notes! 12 keys, 12 strings. There were 12 apostles. I'm making a pretty good argument here. I almost have myself convinced.
ZK

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 6 Jul 2010 2:55 pm

(quote)(We ARE going to get there and when we do we will play 12 strings. 12 notes! 12 keys, 12 strings. There were 12 apostles. I'm making a pretty good argument here. I almost have myself convinced.)

Also, You knew this was coming..

Ps 33:2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.

I play 12 string Ext, E9, Don't remember how/why I started playing 12, sometime when I try to sit in on a 10. I have trouble finding the right strings.

Bill

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 6 Jul 2010 4:03 pm

If a beginner just starts on the S12 it is no more complicated than anything else<<

Zane you also play piano and that has 88 keys..I'm sure little kids are intimidated and overwhelmed when starting to learn to play the piano but after many years of study and practice they play it with their eyes closed. With the right teachers, the burning desire to learn, the willingness to put in practice time all things can be overcome. We are so lucky to have teachers like you who are willing to teach and share their knowledge. A lot of the pro's had to learn by copying licks and songs off of records..it is so much easier when you have a pro teach you..many years can be shaved off the learning curve. IMHO

Barry Hyman · Post by **Barry Hyman** » 6 Jul 2010 6:00 pm

I traded my D-10 for an S-12 in 1974 and have never looked back. I love those low strings and use them more and more all the time.

But bOb said something here a few months back to the effect that some notes are too low, and some strings are too thick -- that they sound cool when the psg player is home alone noodling, but they tend to muddy up the mix, or get lost in the mix, or interfere with the bass player, in a real band situation. So I like my guitar-style low E on my Extended E9th S-12, but I agree with bOb that overusing it, or using notes much lower than that, could get problematical. But back to a 10-string for me? Never!

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 6 Jul 2010 6:32 pm

I'll bet you anything the U12 tuning is getting less popular rather than more. I started with a U12. I sat down with Jimmy Crawford and went over the musical and sonic options of his D10 and my U12. There was no comparison. The D10 was better in every way for my non traditional approach to playing. I actually felt like I had fallen for a bunch of hype in buying into the U12 concept. On paper it looked fine. In practice not so much.
My opinion is based on my personal musical needs so if the U12 works for you that is fine. There are plenty of players way better than I will ever be that use a U12. I really don't think its catching on though.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 6 Jul 2010 6:37 pm

I started playing a Zum U-12 about 5 yrs ago and I simply love it. I'm able to play all my E-9th licks and phrasings and switch to the B-6th mode, without thinking too much. It's really like one big tuning with many capabilities. And yes, you can use the lower strings for rock or blues or just rhythmn backup. It's very "universal".
BTW- I used to play an S-11 with the octave low "E" note ( ala Tom Brumley ) That was also good for all those Memphis vamps and blues runs. It just didn't have all the 6th chords in the lower register that I like.

Larry Lorows · Post by **Larry Lorows** » 6 Jul 2010 11:02 pm

Except for my first guitar, which was a U14 I've always played U12. The two low strings on the 14 were just too low to be heard when I played so went to 12, and never looked back. As already stated, I can move my left foot either way without any problem. It's one big tuning. Larry

Eugene Cole · Post by **Eugene Cole** » 7 Jul 2010 2:21 am

Brad Malone wrote:Is it time to make the Twelve string Pedal Steel the STANDARD? Many, many people say that 12 strings is the way to go because.....
So, is it time to say bye, bye to the 10 stringer and make the 12 stringer standard..just like we made the 6 string guitar standard?

A 12-string Universal is just a normal 14-string which is missing acouple of strings. The advantage of the 12 is this: when playing with a territorial Bass player; you invade the Bass players territory less when you lack the 2 bottom strings. Good diplomacy does make for a happier Band after all.

Installing a coil-tapped pickup can make it a great deal easier to get the tone(s) that we desire for the varieties of music which we play. I wish that they were standard on more instruments.

I think that the whole D12, versus U12, versus S8, versus U14, versus D10 debate can be lots of fun to debate (and make jokes about). But it is akin to the automatic transmission versus manual transmission debate. Sure Manuals offer a lot of advantages (and some disadvantages); but some people just can not get proficient operating manual transmissions: for those challenged people the automatic allows them to operate a vehicle which they otherwise could not.

I still have a D10 and an S10; each of them has its merits. But my go-to Steel is still my U14.

Of course I still hope to someday learn to drive at least one of these Steels well!

Micky Byrne · Post by **Micky Byrne** » 7 Jul 2010 2:42 am

Firstly because of finances I could never afford a D-10 guitar. I started of with a S-10 and in 1977 I bought an extended E/9th Sho-Bud S-12. In 1981 I had a machinest here make up the extra pedals and knees to make it a universal. In 2003 I got a Carter universal, so I have both now. I just don't think of the tuning as 2 seperate tunings, but just 1 big tuning that incoporates most or more than a D-10. Even if I could afford a twin 10, I'd never go that route now after so many years. My poor back thanks me for staying with a single 12

Micky Byrne U.K.

www.micky-byrne.co.uk

Sherman Willden · Post by **Sherman Willden** » 7 Jul 2010 7:51 am

We are making too much of this thing. We are coming from the 10-string world that we learned and which causes confusion for us as a student. The new student comes to us with an uncluttered mind.

Any new pedal steel guitar student should start out on an s12. If required we can scratch the 6th thinking and just tell the student that the guitar is one big E9th. In the beginning we all learned pedal and knee lever movements. Allow a new student to learn the 9th string as just another knee lever movement then all will be well. The same goes for the strings 8, 4, 2 knee lever movement. Allow the student to learn to use the pedal that affects strings 5 and 6 with the knee lever that affects strings 8 and 4 for a min 7th and the student will just assume that is one of the correct ways to get that chord.

Today, the major drawback to a student starting out on a s12 is that the majority of training material is geared to the 10-string genre and the student needs an experienced individual to provide direction. The perfect world would have E9th training material based on the E9/B6 philosophy.

I’m sure some players have just made the 9th string a D and the 10th string a B. If we did that and scratched most of the 6th thinking and made the guitar a big E9th then the training material would apply and the student would be left to adapt strings 11 and 12 on their own.

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 8 Jul 2010 4:04 am

I wonder it this conversation occured when steels were going from 8-strings to 10.
Non-pedals to Pedals was a full out war..

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 8 Jul 2010 4:19 am

I found that it was made a lot for me when I started playing 12's about 5 or 6 years being an E9th & C6th player. Starting on a U-12 was simple since I'd been on C6th since 71'. Just a matter of getting use to the 9th string D being on a KL. To me, the B6th position is the 5 of the 1 chord, E with the KL engaged lowering E's. Once I figured that out and moved the bar up one fret everything was simple. I had to get used to playing "Hold It" in B instead of C on the U12's. I'm currently playing a S-12D Remington, Extended E9th, 3 & 5.

Whip Lashaway · Post by **Whip Lashaway** » 8 Jul 2010 7:08 pm

b0b wrote: I have two arguments against it.
1) Beginners are very intimidated by 12 strings.
Actually, beginners are intimidated by 10 strings too, but 12 is totally overwhelming.

2) I firmly believe that you can get 90% of the standard E9th and C6th vocabulary on an S-10*.
Is it worth adding two extra strings to wring out an additional 5%?

*I'm getting about 80% of E9th and C6th by "splitting the difference" on an S-8 tuned to D6th. If I added a high E for E9th "chromatic" licks and a low D for C6th "boo-wah", I'd be up to 90%.

Although I agree with you Bob, I think ease of application has to be considered. That's where the S12 gains ground in the arguement. IMHO As far as standard, it will never happen till all S12's are set up like mine. And there are who knows how many guys that would say the same thing!!

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 9 Jul 2010 8:32 am

I find, as I spend more and more time on my SU-12, that I'm ready to move even further away from "standard". I've just ordered an MSA Studio Pro, and am considering using some version of Reece Anderson's Bb6 Universal tuning. Reece is helping me with this, thankfully!

For my purposes, U-12 is the best concept, Bb6 U-12 is even better!

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 9 Jul 2010 9:11 am

Hey Chris W. I think the Bb6th is a great tuning for jazz and pop but for country, IMHO, the E9th is the way to go. With ZB's tuning you get the best mixture of country, pop and jazz all on one neck..all you have to do is listen to a couple of Zane Becks recordings and you'll be blown away.

Christopher Woitach · Post by **Christopher Woitach** » 9 Jul 2010 10:55 am

Brad - I hear you about the country, although I only need to be passable for country playing, and Reece seems to be able to play country very well using whatever tuning he's using at the time, including the Bb6. Any country I'm likely to do will be either Western Swing, or as part of a large (17+ pieces!) group, where a little will go a long way.

Zane's tuning is interesting to me, but I think the Bb6 will be even stronger for jazz, which is my main concern.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 9 Jul 2010 4:16 pm

I think the Bb6 will be even stronger for jazz, which is my main concern<<

Christopher, Bb6th has a great jazz voice, I 100% agree with you.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 9 Jul 2010 4:54 pm

12 string guitars will never be a standard. They are are a small minority and always will be. Stateing that on a Forum is not going to change that fact. Thats because the ratio of double necks to U12's in excistince is probably 20 to 1 or better. Also, having 2 necks/tunings forces you to think differently in your playing approach. As someone pointed out above the vast majority of teaching material is for 2 necks. I don't agree with the U12 concept. To each their own. I do admire players who can play them well.

Dave Ristrim · Post by **Dave Ristrim** » 9 Jul 2010 5:02 pm

My 2 cents,
I started on a U12 Universal. I later bought a D10 because it was blue and looked cool. Loved the two tunings on two different necks but hated the fact that the E9 only went as low as the B note. I was used to and happy with the lower notes the Uni got.
My point, I had only seen a pedal steel once before and didn't even know there was a "standard". I taught myself on a U12 tuning with no problem. I later got the Winnie Winston book and converted all the stuff to my tuning which, IMHO, actually helped me learn to play. To each his own, and Viva La Différence.
Oh yeah, I then bought a D12 and totally got into pedal steel!

The Steel Guitar Forum

Twelve string steels.

Twelve string steels.

Re: Twelve string steels.

Is it time to make the Twelve string Pedal Steel STANDARD?.

Re: Twelve string steels.

Re: Twelve string steels.

psg

Re: Twelve string steels.

Bb6th or E9th

Brad

Bb6th for jazz