How to setup a Archtop for Rhythm playing?

Joe Kaufman · Post by **Joe Kaufman** » 18 Dec 2009 10:52 am

I just recently bought a Harmony Archtop off of Craigslist (I wanted a guitar case and the add said Guitar and Case $40). The guitar turned out to be a 1957 Harmony Monterey h1456 http://harmony.demont.net/guitars/H1456/79.htm The guitar was mostly unplayable with broken old out of tune strings and extream buzzing in the first fret. There was also buzzing from a lifting inlay at the third fret. I bought it anyway, free guitar for the price of a case! Trussrod and a flat neck and no seperations or cracks in the body though.

Anyway, I've fixed a few of the problems and can play closed chords up the neck and I've got to say I finally understand how people get that 50's pre-drum country rhythm sound! Its completely different then my flatop.

I still need to have a new nut made or shim up the current one, as well as fix the fret marker inlay, but how else would you set up this guitar to be a pure rhythm guitar for playing country without a drummer? What strings and how high of actions? Heck I think a thicker pick than I am used to might be usefull too! Any advice would be helpfull including how much is too much to spend on fixing it up.
Thanks
-Joe

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 18 Dec 2009 11:14 am

Arch top rhythm playing is a lost art that is so cool sounding. Music of the 30s 40s and 50s has some of the greatest guitarists playing some incredible chords and great rhythm.

Set your guitar up with the highest action you can stand and use bronze acoustic guitar strings. Don't put a pickup on it. Nothing will sound like a mic on it. The archtop sound is a nice tight snap when you hit the chord. No low end boom like you get with a dreadnaught.
You learn to dampen the chord so that it will not ring into the next one. Practice just playing short backbeats that would match a hi hat. Also listen to some Freddie Green with the Basie Band for the swing feel.

If you are interested in country/western type playing listen to Riders in the Sky. Ranger Doug plays some of the best arch top!

I have a 1920s Gibson L5 that I use in the studio when someone wants that sound.

Joe Kaufman · Post by **Joe Kaufman** » 18 Dec 2009 12:35 pm

Bill thanks for the insight, I don't know anyone who plays this style to ask directly. I'm still enjoying noodling around with the knee lever lap you sold me! I'll be working on learning that lost art soon. It seems like its playing drums with chords.

Riders in the Sky are going to be here in May, I'm planning on taking my son for his birthday.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 18 Dec 2009 12:46 pm

Bill,you are right on, Doug Green [Ranger Doug] and Henry Haynes [Homer and Jethro] made an art of playing rhythm guitar. YOU BETCHA, DYK?BC.

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 18 Dec 2009 1:02 pm

Don Gibson played great rhythm on an arch-top.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 18 Dec 2009 1:34 pm

Charles Davidson wrote:Bill,you are right on, Doug Green [Ranger Doug] and Henry Haynes [Homer and Jethro] made an art of playing rhythm guitar. YOU BETCHA, DYK?BC.

PLEASE don't think ill of me for not remembering Henry Haynes. Chet Atkins said that he was the best rhythm guitarist he ever heard in his career and he heard all the good ones!

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 18 Dec 2009 2:53 pm

A great book for learning those Freddie Green style chords is the Ronnie Lee Jazz Guitar Method.

I have some Western Swing Rhythm Guitar lessons up on YouTube, walking bass line style rather than four to the bar. Here's the first one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44zOQ8MpFYs

Scott Shewbridge · Post by **Scott Shewbridge** » 18 Dec 2009 8:43 pm

Super info. Like the videos too.

Joe Kaufman · Post by **Joe Kaufman** » 19 Dec 2009 11:47 am

Leon,
Thanks for the link, that is great info with good examples. I will be practicing now that I got the guitar back from the shop.

Scott Shewbridge · Post by **Scott Shewbridge** » 20 Dec 2009 11:43 am

I've got a follow on question - don't mean to hijack the thread, but it looks like there's some knowledge here.

I've been working on the rhthym parts, but am still slightly confused about "sock rhythm."

Sokolow's book describes it as starting with four to a beat full 6 strings downstrokes (chomp chomp chomp chomp) then transition to damping on 2 and 4 (chomp chunk chomp chuck).

Lots of people praise Ranger Doug's playing, but in all of the free stuff on Youtube it looks to me like he is playing more of a bass chunk rhythm (boom chunk boom chunk). (To me, this sounds more like the regular big band kind of rhythm.)

Can anyone recommend a youtube or other internet clip that really shows the chomp chunk chomp chunk style described by Sokolow? I am trying to figure out how to do it correctly and then to integrate it with the descending bass line style.

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 20 Dec 2009 9:08 pm

Bill Hatcher wrote:Arch top rhythm playing is a lost art that is so cool sounding. Music of the 30s 40s and 50s has some of the greatest guitarists playing some incredible chords and great rhythm.

Set your guitar up with the highest action you can stand and use bronze acoustic guitar strings. Don't put a pickup on it. Nothing will sound like a mic on it. The archtop sound is a nice tight snap when you hit the chord. No low end boom like you get with a dreadnaught.
You learn to dampen the chord so that it will not ring into the next one. Practice just playing short backbeats that would match a hi hat. Also listen to some Freddie Green with the Basie Band for the swing feel.

If you are interested in country/western type playing listen to Riders in the Sky. Ranger Doug plays some of the best arch top!

I have a 1920s Gibson L5 that I use in the studio when someone wants that sound.

I'm with Bill on the setup, etc. I'd highly recommend checking out Mike Dowling's 3 Swing DVD's--I've been fortunate to study with him, and have all of his materials:
http://www.homespuntapes.com/shop/category.aspx?id=233

The Ranger Doug stuff is helpful too--and his book gives lots of recommended listening.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 21 Dec 2009 3:14 am

One of the keys to great archtop playing - depending on the size of the band - is to play less notes in a given chord but use the right voicings. Full 6-string voicings usually won't sound good.

At times, Freddie Green was damping a given chord so that only one note rang!

Here's a fascinating article about this with examples ...

http://www.freddiegreen.org/technique/allen_dcmn.html

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 21 Dec 2009 7:26 am

Andy Volk wrote:One of the keys to great archtop playing - depending on the size of the band - is to play less notes in a given chord but use the right voicings. Full 6-string voicings usually won't sound good.

At times, Freddie Green was damping a given chord so that only one note rang!

Here's a fascinating article about this with examples ...

Dowling uses a "code" to teach the 3 note voicings ala Freddie Green--he developed it after the 1st two Swing DVD's and it's taught on his "Swingin' it Solo" DVD--a simple number system. And there's this resource too:
http://elderly.com/videos/items/717-DVD1.htm

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 21 Dec 2009 7:30 am

Me with one of my favorite pals--a '34 Epi Deluxe--killer lead and rhythm instrument:

Paging Mr. Neer!

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 21 Dec 2009 1:30 pm

That's a beauty, Dana! (And nice threads!).

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 21 Dec 2009 3:05 pm

Leon,

I want to thank you for your very clear presentations/examples of what REAL rhythm is all about. You display enormous concepts, that I think have been long-lost. As you even mentioned in one of your 7 fine (watched & dwnld them all) lessons, "this stuff can be used in all kinds of music, as well as Western Swing". So true.

But you also answered/addressed many other music issues: Mainly - How do all these chords fit together, and where do you use them?

Even you admitted some chords were tuff to get. But you just pushed ahead, with other ways around "those stretches". Just great instructional videos.

I want to thank you again. I had many things cleared up for me watching you play guitar; and you have a pleasing and disciplined delivery.

Merry Xmas

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 22 Dec 2009 6:55 am

Chip - thank you so much for those words; I really do appreciate it. I worked hard, thought through, and rehearsed them many times before recording. They are far from flawless. I really love the music and the intermess gives us a chance to share with a scattered group of folks with common interests.

I have some more stuff planned; but finding time to do it is tough. I need to ramp up my obsessive genes; your kind words will help me do it.

Leon

Jim Robbins · Post by **Jim Robbins** » 22 Dec 2009 9:08 pm

Play 3 note voicings, mute like crazy, and pretend you're a high-hat. No amplifier. Chonking is way more important than playing the right pitches -- that's why they have bass players. You can get away with nickel round wounds so if you are playing lines you can up the volume and not lose your bass end.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 24 Dec 2009 6:25 am

Dana Duplan wrote:Me with one of my favorite pals--a '34 Epi Deluxe--killer lead and rhythm instrument:[/img]

Paging Mr. Neer!

Dana, that Deluxe is beautiful!!!!!!!!!!
I've been in the market for an archtop, and right now I have it down to three choices - a '37 Epi Triumph, a '39 Gibson L7, or a '42 Epiphone "Blonde" Triumph. Of course by the time I get the money saved up they will probably all be gone.
I would love a pre-war Deluxe, but I can't afford something that fancy, so I'm really leaning toward the Triumph. The pre-war Triumph is about half the price of a Deluxe, with the same body and neck dimensions just less binding and inlays, so I think that may be my next guitar.

Here is the pic of the '42, it doesn't have the original pickgaurd and someone put a Kent floating Pickup on it.

Dana Duplan · Post by **Dana Duplan** » 24 Dec 2009 10:40 am

Thanks Alvin--I found a huge amount of variation in tone in my archtop search, even between similar models--extra bling doesn't necessarily mean good tone, and vice versa--the most expensive archie I played ended up being the biggest dud, and the second most expensive the second best I've played (next to my Deluxe of course)! Good luck in you search and let us know what you come up with!
You can hear mine on our music player here:
http://www.myspace.com/thekahunacowboysjugband

On these cuts:
Ride 'em Cowgirl (Lead and Rhythm)
Barnyard Boogie (Lead)
A Chicken Ain't Nothing But a Bird (Rhythm)

Scott Shewbridge · Post by **Scott Shewbridge** » 24 Dec 2009 10:42 am

Beautiful instruments all. I've got my eye on one of the new Eastmans - the 16 inch AR805CE. I've tried about a dozen now, each is unique, all have minor manufactoring flaws (handmade), but they are stunning and the prices seem good. I especially like the violin-like finishes. Anybody else try them?

So far, nobody seems to follow Mr. Sokolow's advice for 1 and 3 (5 or 6 strings sustain strummed). Bass notes with 3 voice chunk chords seem to be the concensus. Freddie Green is a good man to follow.

Happy Holidays all.

Dennis Coelho · Post by **Dennis Coelho** » 24 Dec 2009 12:50 pm

A jazz-playing friend recently brought over information on a new line of arch top guitars made (as they say) off-shore. Mostly copies of D'Aquisto / D'Angelico instruments, they have generated a lot of great reviews, and the prices are in the $1100-$1500 range.

Google "Peerless Guitars."

Jim Sinor · Post by **Jim Sinor** » 25 Dec 2009 6:48 am

Check out the Godin 5th Avenue Kingpin series of archtop guitars. They range from approx $500 for a straight acoustic to $995 for the cut-away with two P90 pickups. There is also a non cut-away with one P90 pickup.

Johnny Thomasson · Post by **Johnny Thomasson** » 27 Dec 2009 11:46 am

This is a great thread. It seems to me that good rhythm guitar playing is becoming a lost art. Most of the lead singers who "play" rhythm guitar nowadays do the 'banga-changa-banga-changa' thing, using fully sustained open chords, and think they're playing rhythm. That sort of playing comes across as white noise to me, especially if it's prominent in the mix (and it usually is if the lead singer is playing it). To make matters even worse, most of these guys seem to think it's their job to maintain the tempo rather than the drummer, and invariably, nearly all of them either rush or drag. Most seem to rush. It's a real struggle for me to play well in front of that kind of rhythm.

A good rhythm guitar is an integral part of the rhythm section, and a good rhythm section is the foundation of any band. I much prefer NO rhythm guitar to a lame one, by far. I'm no slouch at playing rhythm guitar myself, and it pleases me to no end to read that proper rhythm guitar playing has not completely gone the way of the buggy whip!

Carry on!

Rick Barnhart · Post by **Rick Barnhart** » 27 Dec 2009 12:01 pm

Joey McKenzie seems to have this old Gibson set up pretty well... of course, you gotta look past the beautiful young ladies, their fine vocal harmonies, and outstanding fiddle playin'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voRQ9fm_bRQ

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How to setup a Archtop for Rhythm playing?

How to setup a Archtop for Rhythm playing?

Topic: How to setup a Archtop for Rhythm playing?