Question for Paul Franklin

[Steve Spitz]

First let me say you and Dave Peterson knocked me out in Dallas. It was a real pleasure speaking with you both after your set.

If you can, could you expand a bit on the statement that modern steel manufacturers have more in common with violin makers than mass production guitar manufacturers?

I don`t disagree.

Might it be a Luthier/Machinist mindset? Using wood and metal to achieve optimal resonance,tone,and sustain, not to mention the mechanical "playability"?

Thanks for taking the time to post on the forum.

[Franklin]

Thanks Steve,

I'll try to make this brief. The violin maker is the designer of the instrument and that is the key similarity to comparing how violins are made to pedal steels.

Most Violins and Steels are hand crafted and nurtured from the ground up. There are a few exceptions. The wood or materials are hand picked for their sonic quality. Finishing products for the same reason. Violins and steels are assembled and adjusted for the maximum tonality and playability by the designer or someone at an extreme high level of expertise before they leave the shop. The instrument is then shipped to its new owner. When the violin or steel maker expands they seek out an apprentice of the art to increase the production.

Steel guitars have to be customized to each order more so than a guitar or fiddle.

Massed produced electric guitars are subject to the variables of the assembly lines lack of musical and instrument designing knowledge. The guitar tech is the next step to personalizing a mass produced guitar.

The pedal steel is already adjusted for the maximum by the designer or his apprentice like the violin maker.

The sound of a steel comes from the sum of all its parts. A steel guitar can be modified after delivery. If that is chosen its tone will most likely change. How much and to what extent depends on how its altered. My father made my PP sound better to my ears. That is a subjective call.

Paul

[Billy Carr]

Paul,if you don't mind sometime, could you tell us about the current guitar your using at this time. Also, I've seen some of the studio clips of the Martina McBride CD you were on. I believe it was "Timeless" maybe. Don't have it in front of me at the moment. Thanks.

[Kevin Hatton]

Paul, thanks for participating here. Its much appreciated. Thats not leg hump'n, thats coming from a friend.

[jeff reynolds]

One thing I have learned is.....most of the time no matter what instrument the player is playing on , heorshe will sound like heorshe.

As it has been said before.
" The Tone is in Your Hands ". I do believe this to be true. It hasn't been that long ago that I wouldv'e said KNAAWWW Man thats crazy. But, the more I listen to players and the more I see these players play on different instruments the more I see it is true. I think we all will agree.......

John Hughey always sounded like John Hughey.
No matter what steel John was playing on.

[Billy Carr]

You nailed my friend!

[Franklin]

Billy,

I use several guitars and rotate them depending on my mood. Each guitar provides me with a variance in sound. I'm one of those musicians that believes the guitar is part of the equation. I would not go as far as some would with its tonal importance. I believe a players playing technique controls his sound and that the hands contribute the largest part of a players tone. Amplification provides the most variables when I need to sound like someone else. My hands are why my tone does not vary much from one guitar to the next. What I hear from the guitar and amp inspires me. Inspiration is the important part of finding the right axe/amp combination.

Kevin,

We have known each other for quite awhile. Thanks. I don't see it as leg humping. If someone else sees it that way, who cares what they think? I remember our talk at Duanes visitation. You're a good man.

Cheers,
Paul

[Steve Spitz]

Thanks to Paul and everyone who contributed to this one. I think one element of the steel community that isn`t mentioned enough is the willingness of the members to share knowledge.
Past builders like Duane (who re-worked my pro 2) and Crawford, and present builders alike all share a love for their craft, and are very generous with their knowledge.
Add to that the insight of top players, willing to comment and answer questions, along with the advice of lifelong steel players of any profile.
Do you think YoYo Ma answers questions from mid-level players on the Cello forum?
I really believe that us steel players might be a better than average cross section of society.
Occasionally, somebody tries to prove me wrong...

[Bent Romnes]

Thanks to Paul and everyone who contributed to this one.
I really believe that us steel players might be a better than average cross section of society.

Steve, I hope it doesn't mean that you are expecting this thread to stop with that... This is a potential huge thread and I will be sitting on the sidelines taking it all in, and of course, contribute if I have something worthwhile.

Thanks, Steve, for starting this one, and Paul, for sharing your expertise.
The last statement from you that I quoted I want to expand on: Maybe we're not better; we certainly are a close-knit group and I for one feel the camaraderie and closeness from most of the other members that I read and write with regularly.
I have dubbed us The Steel Guitar Brotherhood.

Please keep this thread going..there is so much more to be said...and learned.

[Bent Romnes]

Paul, everybody, how does one select wood for it's tonal qualities?

It sounds to me like you'd have to hang the board on a string and strike it with something and then have an 'ear' for the sound. Or what??

[John P. Phillips]

Well Bent, you've hit on a real "Thought provoker" this time my friend. OBTW Paul, I'm just sitting here "steeling" what knowledge that I can from what you share with us !

[Pat Comeau]

I also beleive that most of the tone comes from the hands...same as playing a guitar, i have two different Fender telecaster and the two does'nt sounds the same but when i play them they both have the tone, i quess it's all about playing style, i'm sure when John played an Emmons PP he didn't had the same sound has when he played his Zum but he still had the tone.

I think that tone and sound are two different thing all together.

[Franklin]

Bent,

PSG's should have a complete vibrating sound. A guitars tone is enhanced by the sum of its parts. Everything on the guitar will either add or take away from that circle of tonal vibrations. Remember after the string is picked its vibration should continue throughout the body of the instrument and should be felt all the way down to the bottom of the legs. The entire guitar needs to vibrate if sustain, balance, and fullness of tone are desired.

Tapping on wood is a simple and sure way to test whether the wood resonates. Each piece of wood has a pitch. And some boards of the same wood type resonate a lot more than others. Try to match the tones of all the woods used for the cabinet.

Paul

[Georg Sørtun]

Paul, everybody, how does one select wood for it's tonal qualities?

These days, to get it right, one will use a transducer coupled to a tone generator and measuring device, and compare the direct response from the wood with a known norm. Knocking on wood with ones knuckles gives the same information to a trained ear, and no need to or use in suspending the piece of wood.

The challenge is in training ones ears, as the piece of wood will undergo lots of shaping before ending up as part of a finished instrument - changing its tonal qualities dramatically. If you don't know what to listen for at all stages, or don't know what will be the right tonal qualities for the body of the finished instrument, you're lost.

A good instrument body doesn't have a tone, it responds relatively evenly to a whole range of tones and has its main resonance frequency where it doesn't hurt - usually well below or high above the instrument's tonal range. Thus, a stable piece of wood that sounds "pretty dead" in the right way when you knock on it, is usually better than one that responds with the slightest hint of tone.
That "deadness" in well-dried and stable hardwood is usually a hint that it will respond evenly for tones audible to the human ear, but the sound of "deadness" takes a trained ear to interpret correctly.

[Franklin]

John,

You know there's no steelin' allowed here

Steve,

For the most part this forum is full of nice people sharing and searching about PSG's. I hope this thread stays with its present attitude. Its nice for a change.
I'm still searching for the answers just like everyone else.

Paul

[Jim Sliff]

First, I think most in this thread are reverting to to the misconception that "style" constitutes "tone".

For good or bad, I am a "stylist". Those familiar with my playing (in other parts of the industry) can tell it's me whether I'm playing a custom Pullstring Tele, a '63 Jag, my Trussart Les Paul... it really doesn't matter. It carries over to steel, where (and I will readily admit to being a relatively poor "guy who gets away with it" steel player) I can play my stock-pickup Fender 1000, my GFI Ultra, 70's ZB, or 3-pickup Fender 400 and still sound like me.

But NOT tonally. There will be similarities in attack, the way I use (or don't use) sustain, effects, etc., and there are many consistent lines I'll play, attack I'll use, and methods of amp manipulation (i.e using amps right on the edge of breakup so I can control a light amount of "overdrive"-ish distortion via attack.)

But those are all "style-based" player identification. Do I NEED all those steels? No, not really. But I like the variations in tone. And no (to those looking for an opening) it's not that I can't control my hands because of lack of experience - I've been playing fretted and lapsteel guitars for decades...only the pedals/tunings are relatively new (even then, I have 6 or 7 years total in on pedal steel at this point).

I also like having my Line-6 Variax handy - a 6-string guitar with Fifty-one different guitar/pickup combinations modeled. There are several steel players also (as I am) looking into ways of adapting this technology to pedal steel; there are some very difficult technical hurdles to overcome, but I have no doubt it will happen.

And I would challenge any steel player to take a pedal steel - ANY pedal steel - with a Variax electronics system aboard and use his/her hands to sound the same comparing just TWO settings: The Strat bridge and middle pickup combination followed by the Les Paul Custom bridge and middle combination.

Oh, wait. Did I just imagine someone saying "well, instrument construction and tonal rules don't apply the same to 6-string guitars as pedal steels."

Uh-hu. And water flows uphill, sound waves travel the same at all altitudes...and the earth is flat.

Many other players fall in the same category, where they are recognizable just by others hearing them play a few notes.

But with a few very specific exceptions of players who intentionally try to duplicate their prototypical tone an any instrument they play, what one hears is NOT a "tone clone" - it's the player's distinctive style (and example would be Albert Lee, who uses a specific two-pickup Strat-like tone on his signature guitars that sounded a lot like his old Pullstring Tele did with the pickups out-of phase.). But when Albert plays a Les Paul you KNOW it's Albert because of the style...the tone, however, is quite different.

It's a common mistake - and that's not to say some semblance of tonal similarity can be massaged via hand control. But a distinctive players' style can sometimes be SO recognizable and distinctive that he could play almost any instrument and someone would say "see - tone is in the hands".

Except it's not.

Once you strike the string, one hand (normally the right ) is out of the equation tonally. The left can use vibrato or vary the bar pressure, but those elements have little effect on tone and are not going to alter the frequency response (OK - you can split hairs and say IF the vibrato travels over a particular region on the string for a particular note it can affect the harmonics of that string to a small degree - but not in a way most listeners...players or not...can hear.

This subject has bean beaten to death in Reece Anderson' fairly regular tone threads, and has been pretty thoroughly dismissed as a claim with no proof. To back up the "tone is in the hands" claim, one would have to have waveform analysis done. To be fairly objective, you'd need to take readings on several different guitars with all amp/recording settings equal, have a player strike a single note,and record the results.

Reece claimed to have such analysis but never provided it, and many of us are waiting for someone to prove the claim. Personally, I don't believe it based on 40+ years of playing and tech work, but I'm open minded to factual studies.

However - just claiming "tone is in the hands" with no proof is rather hollow and weak. I don't deny that the tones are more closely-related with modern steels, where unfortunately (IMO) many makers seem to be aiming for one generic "steel tone" - hence the removal of volume/tone control circuits. Regardless, no one has yet proven (despite Reece's anecdotal claims) that scientific studies exist proving "tone is in the hands".

The pedal steel is already adjusted for the maximum by the designer or his apprentice like the violin maker.

A steel guitar can be modified after delivery. If that is chosen its tone will most likely change. How much and to what extent depends on how its altered. My father made my PP sound better to my ears. That is a subjective call.

Those two statements seem a bit contradictory. If the pedal steel (in this case your P/P) was ALREADY "adjusted for the maximum"( an interesting choice of words, and completely ambiguous - adjusted for maximum *what*? IF you mean "tone" - the you have to define a benchmark of good...or bad...or somewhere in between.).

But wait - if it was already at its maximum tone potential, how...and why...did your dad modify it? If it was already at its maximum (and one can probably assume you mean in a tonal sense given the subject matter) - then how do you increase the quality of something ABOVE its maximum capabilities?

Man, talk about illogical statements.

Most Violins and Steels are hand crafted and nurtured from the ground up. There are a few exceptions. The wood or materials are hand picked for their sonic quality. Finishing products for the same reason. Violins and steels are assembled and adjusted for the maximum tonality and playability by the designer or someone at an extreme high level of expertise before they leave the shop. The instrument is then shipped to its new owner. When the violin or steel maker expands they seek out an apprentice of the art to increase the production.

Gee - that sounds EXACTLY like high-level boutique and large-manufacturer Custom-Shop manufacturing - something I am intimately familiar with (and I won't go into my personal background here; you can be assured it's pretty darned extensive - feel free to email if you question my qualifications).

So the manufacturing of high level instruments is similar, they are made to their maximum potential....but can be modded to sound better by Paul's dad.

[Pat Comeau]

Here's how i see things about TONE ect...

1. The way i discribe tone is...it doesn't matter what instruments you are playing you know when the tone is right.

2. An instrument can sound good but doesn't mean it has a good tone.

3. Tone has more to do with your hands and soul then anything else.

I get alot a people come up on stage and play my Tele and rare are the ones that has the tone, it is the player that makes the tone and the amps and FX that makes the sound, same goes for a singer...i get singers in my studio that it doesn't matter what kind of mics they use they just don't have the technic and tone...yes! i can make them sound good in the mix but they just don't have the right vocal tone.

Tone is something you have or you don't, for some it'll take years to find...for others less and some will never find it .

Maybe some people see tone in a different way as i do, it could be possible and sometimes people argue about things that each of them see in a different way and they will never understand each other

[Ryan Barwin]

There's more to the sound than just the tone...tone comes from the instrument, and the amp. When you play a note, certain overtones are going to be present, some stronger than others...it's dependent on the resonance of the guitar, as well as the pickup, and the amp, and any effects being used. This doesn't come from the player's hands.
However, with style and technique, a good player can manupulate the sound to get the most out of whatever tone the guitar has, and be very aware of this. This part does come from the player's hands, and is just as important to the overall sound, just not to the actual tone of the instrument.

But ultimately, all of it is subjective.

[Pat Comeau]

Ryan said:

However, with style and technique, a good player can manupulate the sound to get the most out of whatever tone the guitar has, and be very aware of this

That's exactly what i'm saying, it is not everyone that has the right tone ...and it's the player that makes and gets the most best tone out of the instruments cause a professional player knows how to get the maximum out of his instruments , and it's hard to make someone understand that when they haven't found it yet...they think they need another instrument or amps or FX.

[Brint Hannay]

An instrument can sound good but doesn't mean it has a good tone.

As written, this statement sounds like "A food can taste good, but that doesn't mean it has a good flavor". Which doesn't make much sense.

But I think (hope) what you mean is "An instrument can sound good but doesn't mean it has a good tone FOR YOU."--Or "for your purpose at a given time".

Back in the 70's I lived for a few months in a basement apartment in a house in Laurel Canyon (L.A.) that was an active recording studio upstairs. Session guitarists would show up with a HUGE trailer full of guitars, and their personal guitar techs would scurry back and forth bringing them different guitars throughout the session. Now, either those guitarists were fools or the different guitars had inherent tones that were conducive to different ranges of expressive ideation.

Jim referred to Albert Lee. Albert is one of my favorite guitarists. I feel there is a definite difference in his style--while there is a LOT of "structural" similarity--when he is playing with his Music Man "Strat two-pickup" tone, as opposed to what he played in the past on a '50's Tele bridge pickup. There's an ATTITUDE difference--on the Tele there's "spank" and "snarl" that doesn't "Spank" or "snarl" even if he plays the exact same notes on his Music Man in position 2 or 4. And the two sounds trigger different ideas. If a note has a "snarl" to it, you may well milk it as you wouldn't if its pitch were the same, but it didn't have the "snarl".

Now, a pedal steel player doesn't enjoy the same luxury of varied tone palette. What producer is going to tolerate someone setting up eight different pedal steels for specific points in the song? And would eight different pedal steels, as we find them in the present world, differ enough, even in the picky player's own mind, to justify the hassle?

[Pat Comeau]

Maybe i explain it the wrong way as i'm french and sometimes confuse the meaning of words in english as sometimes it is different in French,

exemple...if someone strum an acoustic guitar open string you can tell if the guitar has a good tone or not... right? and it doesn't need an expert to strum an acoustic guitar ...right? if a guitar has a good tone just by struming it open string ...it doesn't mean that everyone can play and make that guitar sound good and get the maximum tone out of it

are you getting my drift?..

[Mark Durante]

When a builder such as Paul's dad deals directly with the player buying the guitar, the guitar can be adjusted according to the players personal preferences. This is the ideal situation. If a guitar is made and sold to a store, the maker does not know who will buy it, so it is adjusted to general specs that may or may not be what the purchaser ultimately wants. Guitars of all types have adjustment capabilities so that people can personalize their instrument. Not all players are alike and not all want the same thing. I don't think anyone can deny that all guitars sound different from each other to some degree, even different guitars of the same model. There have been arguments round and round over symantics when it comes to tone/sound but in the end we all know that tone/sound is an intricate combination of guitar, amp, effects and player technique.

[Franklin]

Jim,

You totally misread my intentions in the other thread, which I clearly stated. Take a deep breath and relax. And please stop the personal accusations.

Read the title of this thread. You have these choices. You can ignore this thread and my posts or you can listen to my experiences. I am not forcing anything I believe on (you) and its pointless for (you) to try to sway me into your mindset.

Jim, I'll borrow a saying from the late Jerry Reed...... "Hoss, What I know is working"!

Leo Fender with all of his knowledge conceded the design of pedal steel guitars to those who actually played and built steels professionally. That's the sign of a "smart" technician and business man.


Back to the topic,

Here's a little more history. Back in the early 70's Jimmy Crawford was hired to work on mostly PPs because back in those days you only saw two brands of steel guitars in Nashville, Sho Bud and Emmons. His work was known to improve the sustain and tonality to its maximum potential. Jimmy had a business modifying PP's because Ron's focus was elsewhere. Ron was focused on designing an all pull guitar so he could discontinue the PP. That was the word on the street.

A few understood the types of modifications Jimmy was making to improve the sound, (mostly builders) and most players did not care to know. And as I said, which is not a contradiction, any modification from the regular design will most likely alter the guitars sound.

Later when I was getting my Emmons, Ron Lashley was still focused on completing the Legrande design. He knew he needed the pro's acceptance before he could discontinue the PP. All pull guitars were dominating the industry. It was about staying competitive. He decided to send Jimmy a kit with the entire parts and let him put them together. That was the second phase of Jimmy's shop.

Since the pro's were going to Jimmy anyway, it was a good business move for Ron. I believe Blackie Taylor also put together some Kits at his shop. I had my father, instead of Jimmy, take care of my PP's concerns.

Paul

Bent,

You will always get opinions pro and con to which type of woods sound best. I personally would not choose the sound of hardwoods for a steel guitar cabinet as George is suggesting, that's me. I want the whole guitar to vibrate. The wood is just one part of the formula.

Lashley, Shot, and others discovered years ago that the Pedal Steel Guitars tone comes from the sum of its design.

Everything matters....They meaning "all" of the legendary builders literally tried every combination of woods and metals to find their tonal conclusion and most of their brands have stood the test of time.

The tone of any instrument is subjective and all musicians do not seek the same conclusion.

Paul

[CrowBear Schmitt]

Thanx for being gracious & stickin' w: us Paul

[Bent Romnes]

Jim S. Please don't let this thread deteriorate into something a la "Reece Anderson claimed etc etc "
Lets keep this civil and nice. There are a lot of us here who want to learn from this. If we have something to say, say it in a nice way.

Paul, I didn't quite understand what you meant by
" I personally would not choose the sound of hardwoods for a steel guitar cabinet..." Do you mean here that you would leave that totally up to the builder?

To be more direct..From your experience in the industry, can you tell me what wood species wins for a steel cabinet? Or for that matter wood type, like plywood.
Or is it more like this: One day I might find a piece of hard maple that 'sounds' really good. The next day I might find a piece of birdseye, or Finnish plywood for that matter, that sounds good?

An interesting side note: you talked about feeling for the vibrations down the legs to the floor.
Here is how my 3 home built steels acted.In the prototype made from 7/8" birdseye I can feel the vibrations a 12" or so down the leg. The 3/4" birdseye that belongs to Dave Seddon, you can barely feel any vibration. The third one, 3/4" hard maple, has detectable vibration 4 inches down the leg. I think Dave's guitar and my prototype sound the best.
That's just my ear