Fender Deluxe?

[Michael Dulin]

Anyone have experience using a Deluxe Reverb for pedal steel? Not having to be very loud at some gigs I'm wondering if I might like the sound of one. Maybe some tube changes need to be made for cleaner headroom. Thanks for any input.MD

[Tony Prior]

Half correct, you will like it at low volume, you cannot change the headroom characteristics of an amp by changing tubes, you can alter what "is" but not actually improve the headroom. These amps are designed to give a growl as you tweak up the volume knob, and that's what they do. Amplifier tube circuits are designed with the tube in mind.

Not all that long ago I was playing though a 40 watt Hot Rod Deluxe, I loved it until I needed to push it a bit. I did however find a solution to the headroom issue. I switched to a 60 watt Hot Rod Deville !

Most of the 12AX family tubes I swapped in the HR Deluxe did make a change, some decreased the volume and some drastically changed the tone. The best thing you can do is get the best stock tube and stick it in the socket. You may gain some improvement just be having the best tube the circuit was designed for. Fenders I believe come with Sovteks, some of those are real good some are not so great.

good luck

t

[Stu Schulman]

Michael,I played out of a Deluxe re-issue this past summer at our state fair...Moo! it was provided by the sound company,The act that I played with had an acoustic guitar,banjo,and three vocals no drums or bass,I was amazed at the sound of that amp,I thought about stealing it?In a low volume situation it's really great,Stu

[Joshua Grange]

I'm using one live with kd lang. Bob Dixon from Amphole here in LA changed the speaker to a Celestion Vintage 30, one of my favorites.
I've had some great success tonewise running the amp section to a different cab, usually a 2x12.
I use a Boss EQ to help boost the mids slightly also. The Deluxe has no mid EQ itself.
I have to keep the volume at around 1 3/4 else it's too loud for our stage volume. Unless you're playing in a loud loud band without a mic I'd be surprised to find a situation where it wouldn't cut through volume wise.
I'd really love to take the amp out and put it in a 1x15 cab....

[Jim Sliff]

Congrats Josh - you reinforced what I've been saying in several threads - you do NOT need a 200-300 watt solid-state amp for pedal steel - set up properly most tube amps from 22-100 watts will work fine.

I get folks telling me I'd be drowned out using my 40-watt Vibroverb (untrue, as I use it most of the time!), and yet you're using 22-watt DR with no problem.

Some folks just do not like to listen, or are too Peavey-brainwashed to understand good tone & low power can be just as loud/clean as sterile tone and high power....

[Robert Harper]

I love tube amps until you have to change tubes, then they get kinda expensive. I played for a long time through a fender Delux, just for my own amazement it was great. Then, tubes started failing, less great. Ah the smell and feel of warm tubes.

[Stu Schulman]

Josh,Yes a 1x15 would be great with a Deluxe.What steel are you playing now?Fender?Stu

[Chris LeDrew]

Before I sold my Deluxe Reissue, I had my tech mod it to make it better for steel. He installed a mid control (in the extension speaker hole, to prevent any drilling). He also put in a solid state rectifier. I believe he also swapped an AY7 for the usual 12AX7 in the preamp circuit. It helped quite a bit with clean headroom.

In the end, I went back to my SF Twin. My bandmates are loud and rude.

I now have a '66 Deluxe, which sounds good for steel but does break up very easily. I do think that hot steel pickups are somewhat to blame for this. My Professional in the coil tap position does not hit the Deluxe half as hard.

I'll see you next week, Josh.

[Joshua Grange]

Wow Chris I was just posting this reply and saw your post! Can't wait to hang out with you. I still use the bar you gave me for every show. The mid control is great, and a 12-AT, U or Y tube is great for more headroom. I also dont use a tube in the channel one position which gives the amp more oooomph. Thats technical talk right there. Hot tip!

Stu, using an S-10 Sho-Bud 3+3, mid to late 70's model, with a Tone Aligner in there at the moment. Jim Palenscar just finished working on a 14 string Sierra that I cant wait to try out with the Deluxe.

And Jim, I think a little bit of the tube breakup sounds so good when the steel is playing at the top of its volume curve, (like Jimmy Day on his great Golden Steel and Strings records) though I don't ever seem to play that loud.
This Deluxe was modded to black-face specs by Bob Dixon.

Robert Harper it seems I can go for many many months without changing tubes. It's like changing your own oil, kinda fun to get dirty.

But it's all about finding the sound that you really like. For some it's the super high-fidelity Peavy-y clean tone, for some it may be a more spongey tube like sound, others, well something else! And I don't think I'm alone in that the fun seems to be in trying out different angles either for a day or a year.

Hey it's the journey! Are we there yet!?

[Chris LeDrew]

Great post, Josh. All so true. Glad to hear you're still using that bar. Ya can't beat good old stainless steel for that vintage tone! I'm really looking forward to the show.....I saw you guys on "Live At The Rehearsal Hall" on Bravo last week, and it was killer. Love the Baritone!

I have a big ol' D10 Rack and Barrel Professional here at the house. It sounds nuts. I hope I get a chance to show it to you.

Speaking of Deluxes, this was my setup from a club gig last night (standard guitar) - taken with my cell phone:



On the top is the '66 Deluxe, on bottom a BF'ed '71 SF Twin. I ran them in stereo. The band was not happy about it at all.

[Jim Sliff]

I'll use almost the same setup, but with a DR and '69 Pro Reverb, sometimes in stereo, others with an A/B switch so I an go from clean to dirty (I'll bias the DR hot in that setup) without a distortion or OD pedal - gets more of a singing tone that way.

Josh - I agree, you can, at the upper volume end, get a little (or a lot) of breakup depending on how you "tune" the amp, and my idea of a "clean" tone is exactly that - clean with a little edge when you dig in. The small amount of breakup sounds warm and smooth, and as noted has that classic sound of You Ain't Goin' Nowhere (I'm not familiar with the Day stuff - never thought it was my cup of tea but I might have to track some down for tonal comparisons).

Any idea what Bob did to BF the Deluxe? I have a feelig it was more than a BF conversion - because there really isn't a BF conversion for a DR. They are tonally identical to SF's depending on tubes, speaker and bias settings. There are a couple of minor changes you can make, but a SF Deluxe, except for some minor parts, is the same thing a a BF (about 9 or 10 years ago a bunch of us - all experienced player and a few of us amp techs - put a mix of a dozen or so SF and BF DR's in a room and did a "blind" listening test - nobody could tell what was what!).

Pulling V1 should *increase* gain, giving you even earlier breakup...and having to change tubes that often (with a DR set for "clean" playing I get 2-3 years from NOS 6V6's, and 6 mos to a year out of Russian firecrackers) makes me think it's actually set up on the "hot" side. Strange, but then again the first 1/4 of the volume knob is gonna have 90% of the clean sound, and a strong gut-punch of mids.

Something lost (because we were all having more fun on other subjects) is HOW to really clean up a DR - the lower-gain preamp tube is one thing that increases headroom (hmmm - pulling V1 and using a lower-gain preamp tube in V2 WOULD be a different idea - have to try that one). The other thing a lot of Tele players do is change out the power tubes for 6L6's. Pete Anderson did this and got incredible punch, and his loud/clean DR tone had some bite but not the early breakup...just a little edge to it, agin when really digging in. At louder volume i makes a DR a nice "touch" amp, where your picking has more to do with playing clean than almost anything else.

I like Philips STR387's (a 6L6 made especially for the upside-down mounting of a Fender amp - the "STR" stand for "special tube request"). I've had a pair of those for 25 years that are "studio" tubes or used for specific 1-set gigs, the same way I use a pair of blackplate RCA's or my Mullard EL37's. All have specific sounds, all are incredibly expensive to replace with good matched pairs, so I don't use them for day-to-day stuff.

You can also go to bigger iron. A heavier output transformer will really tighten up the sound - but doing it requires special custom-made mounting plates to avoid drilling holes in the chassis, a hack-mod on any vintage amp and seriously frowned on (not to mention it devalues the amp).

Out of all Fender amps ever made, the DR is the one just about every player - 6 string or steel - should have (a BF or SF...actually a SF since they cost far less and are essentially the same...not the reissue, which DOESN'T sound the same). It has the prototypical Fender tone, can be used at lower volume levels (unlike a Twin) and is incredibly versatile. I use my BF Vibroverb or Holland more than any other amp, but the DR is my "desert Island" amp.

[Mike Poholsky]

Jim & Chris, just curious, what is your hook up, from guitar to amps, to run stereo?

[Dave Mudgett]

When I first started playing pedal steel, I used my blackface Deluxe Reverb. I changed V2 (the first preamp gain stage tube on the Vibrato Channel) from 7025/12AX7 to either 5751 or 12AY7 and the speaker from my trusty Celestion Vintage 30 to an EV SRO or a JBL D120F (The original Oxford has been safely tucked away in a box with the original speaker cable/jack for 20 years since I bought it). I biased it quite cold, and had a few reversible mods on it to increase the headroom. It sounded tremendous with my old Franklin, but I think playing bar gigs without a great PA, a fairly loud stage volume, and a drinking and/or partying audience is very different than playing with, let's say, kd lang with a good PA, a low stage volume and a listening audience. I got to the point where I couldn't hear myself and maintain the tone I wanted. In a listening room with the stage volume reasonable, I can use my Deluxe no problem.

Pulling V1 should *increase* gain, giving you even earlier breakup...

Jim is correct that this does increase the gain. But to my ears, it thickens the sound overall if one lowers the volume knob to compensate for the increased volume level.

Instead of doing this, I have a switch-pot on my Tremelo Intensity controls (naturally, keeping the original pot in a labeled bag in case I ever sell an amp - although it's unlikely that I'll ever sell my DR or VR in my natural lifetime). One can also just disconnect and tape off one wire to remove the tremelo from the circuit, but then of course one doesn't have the option of tremelo, which is intolerable to me since I double on guitar. At zero, it switches out the tremelo from the circuit, which not only increases the gain, but again adds a level of clarity and fullness to the sound, even after equalizing the gain by lowering the volume control. That made a significant difference, and I still have the "Normal" channel, which is voiced slightly differently and has the 12AX7 in the first preamp stage (for guitar). As usual, I keep all the original parts together and anything changed this is easily reversed.

I also have repro upper back panels on mine (originals tucked away, as usual) with a digital millivoltmeter mounted and connected via a switch to bias points. I can rebias quickly - between songs if I have about 30 seconds. All this makes the Deluxe more useful for low stage volume PSG use, but I still can't use it too often.

On NOS vs. newer 6V6 or 6L6 tubes - I will never use modern tubes in a DR again, after a catastrophic failure (firecracker is right - the modern overseas-made "carefully tested and matched" tubes were a week old) took out the original output transformer. You won't believe how hard it was to find an old OT to replace it. Nothing I've tried can handle the plate voltage, which is typically between 420 and 440 VDC, way over the design center for a 6V6. I prefer NOS GE tubes, but what's available reasonable these days are mostly the Philips/Sylvania 6L6GT from the 80s. Pretty much the same deal for 6L6 - the Philips/Sylvania 6L6WGB is what's out there for non-stupid prices, but I prefer the 7581A Philips/Sylvania or an RCA black-plate. But I'm not gonna use them much at current prices, which are $100 apiece and more. Unfortunately, the supply of the best NOS tubes is hitting the bottom of the barrel.

Just another take.

[Joshua Grange]

Jim I think the mod included redoing some wiring and getting rid of some caps. There are differences in the SF amps made in the late 60's and early 70's. From what I can remember Bob Dixon telling me, some amps would have loud oscillation noise when tone or vol knobs were turned up, due in part to new inexperienced wiring techs brought on by Fender at that time. The wiring/soldering was not as precise and used varying lengths of wire, and the easiest solution was to put caps in to attenuate those oscillations. Not a hard fix, but time consuming. Totally worth the effort and I can really tell a difference in the fullness and punch in the sound.
And Dave I can see how a real loud bar gig with a pounding drummer would be more of a challenge with the Deluxe than a quieter type set. FWIW the loudest clean amp I've ever used is the Fender Custom Shop Dual Professional. That thing is a beast. I have a SF Master Vol Twin that we used for elec guitar on the Dwight SIngs Buck album, and that thing is reallllllly loud and clean too.

[mike nolan]

I use a 64 DR almost all of the time. If it has to be loud, I'll take out the Vibroverb. Most bands that I play with just aren't that loud, even with a drummer. I don't really enjoy working with super loud stage volume... so I avoid those gigs if possible.

[Chris LeDrew]

Jim & Chris, just curious, what is your hook up, from guitar to amps, to run stereo?

I use a Line 6 MM4, which is a modulation modeler. It has great emulations of tremelo (bias and opto), chorus, flanger, phaser, Leslie, etc. I only use it for two tremelo speeds, a phaser and a mild rotary effect.

[Nick Reed]

Michael,
I sometimes use a Deluxe Reverb for very small venues. I play at a restaurant about once a month where the volume has to be low. I use the Deluxe Reverb for that gig and it's OK, but not great! As far as effects, I only use a Boss RV-3 with delay only then barely crack the reverb to about 2 on the amp. The Deluxe really doesn't have a enough bottom end for Steel Guitar to my ears. But since I have one I use it anyway. I'm just used to my big Webb 614E and and my Nashville 1000 so it's hard to be happy with anything else. Here's a couple of videos where I played through my Deluxe Reverb at home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6me8i3TLuW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpJqSmhH5e0



Nick

[Michael Dulin]

Thanks for all the input. Until my post here all I got from the guy at the music store was 'Steel guitar will blow the speaker...so I can't let you try it,unless you buy it' Thanks again.MD

[Dave Mudgett]

Michael - just a suggestion. Bring in an extension cab (or another amp) loaded with a 12" speaker you'd like to try, and a speaker cable with a 1/4" jack on one end (to plug into the speaker out of the Deluxe) and whatever you need to hook to your cab/amp on the other, and ask to try the Deluxe through your cab.

On their concern - the low strings of a C6 or E9/B6 universal could be tough on an old stock Oxford or Jensen in an old DR, especially if it's turned up.

But I think it would be more likely to blow a Deluxe Reverb speaker using a Les Paul with a distortion pedal into it than plugging an S-10 E9 pedal steel at moderate volume. I'll bet they wouldn't object to someone checking it out with the former.

If they're reasonable (not necessarily a good assumption), then it strikes me that bringing your own speaker should shunt any objection.

Which version DR is this? If it's an old silverface DR in very good to excellent original condition for, let's say, less than a grand - you probably won't lose much (or anything) if you decide you want to sell it. Same story on a reissue for less than $500-600 or so. The market for these is pretty robust if you just don't overpay.

I strongly prefer an old SF or BF Deluxe Reverb to the reissue. If you're talking about popping MAP (min advertised price, which I believe is $1199.99 right now) for a new reissue, I suggest you look for a good old silverface one instead. I believe you'll lose significant dough if you buy a new one at MAP and then decide you don't like it and want to sell it. I see real nice SF DR's for that kind of dough all the time. I can't believe they've raised MAP so high on these - bizarre. (I conclude that based on the current Musicians Friend price).

[Drew Howard]

Had the same experience as Tony, 40w Hot Rod Deluxe was clean until I played w/ a loud rhythm section.
Also had a fierce notch of midrange that I didn't like.

I rely on a Blues Jr. for E9 and non-pedal quiet gigs and recording and a late 70's SF Twin for loud. Would love to have a SF Deluxe! Prefer the Twin for C6.

[Michael Dulin]

Thanks for the input Dave. I'm thinking of looking for a BF or SF. The new one is pretty salty and modifications would probably void the warranty.'not that the warranty reports from Fender are so good lately'. With what I've gathered from this thread it looks like...change of some tubes,rectifier,bias,maybe adding a mid control,plus changing the speaker...would make this a good steel amp. Sounds like a lot but if the sound was really sweet it might be worth it. What about a speaker from a Nashville 112 that's already steel guitar friendly? Thanks MD.

[Joe A. Camacho]

I use a SF Deluxe, to retain some headroom I plug into the second input of the vibrato channel, especially with my ZB.

[Dan Tyack]

(I think I'm starting to sound like a broken record here...)

Here's the option I'd prefer for when you need to play stupid loud. Take your Deluxe and either get somebody to add a line out (line level signal post power amp stage) or use an attenuator with a line out like a THD Hotplate. Take the line signal from your line out and run it into your light solid state power amp (I like the Crate Powerblock for this because it's dirt cheap and I don't care if I forget it at a gig). With that power amp you can drive whatever speaker cab you have sitting around. I like a Jim Kelly cab with a JBL E120.

Voila, you have the loudest Deluxe reverb you have ever heard. You will easily be loud enough to draw blood.

[Kyle Everson]

Josh, when you run your Deluxe at 1 3/4, how much volume pedal are you using?

[Jim Sliff]

One other note (it may have been posted and I missed it):

FWIW a "Deluxe Reverb" and a "Deluxe" are NOT the same. The DR has an extra gain stage that gives it a lot more punch. The non-reverb Deluxe is a GREAT amp with a sweet, round tone - but not the power or volume of the DR.