what would you do?

[Dayna Wills]

I need a man's viewpoint on a sticky situation.
Bandleader (B) is picking on Guitar player (G) on stage whenever G makes a mistake. They have been working together for 2 or 3 years. I joined them about 6 months ago. All this time, B picks on G and G never stands up for himself...until last weekend. B rode G all evening about silly mistakes. Then B started 2 songs off in the wrong key. G made some remark to B about being "Perfect". It was the first time he's stood up to B. I think he may be noticing that B never says anything to me when I make mistakes. Here's the rub: B had a spinal injury some years ago and can't lift anythng heavier than a phone book, so G comes to the gig an hour early to unload and set up B's keyboard and his PA. If G gets fed up with B and quits, B is in big trouble. How will he find a good guitar player who will be his personal roadie and not ask for extra $? So, do I keep mum and let G figure out how he's being under-appreciated and he quits? Do I pull B aside and tell him that he's about to blow it and lose G? Do I try to get B to treat G better by asking him not to critisize G on the bandstand in front of me? What would you do?
BTW, I joined the duo to help B when he lost his voice, due to surgery. He is now able to sing, but he insists that he wants me to stay with them.

Thanks.

[Tony Prior]

forget all this B and G stuff ..

how do you play Steel in a band with a Guitar and a Keyboard !


I would last one night under these conditions. I would gently resign my post at the end of the night.

it'a difficult to put yourself in the middle but perhaps as stated below a brief conversation with B is in order.

afterall this is a band, hopefully you all have not taken on World Hunger as a cause to solve yet !

B evidently has a very hi opinion of himself.

[James Martin (U.K.)]

This is what I would do.Take B to one side and tell him he's a bully and if he doesn't treat G with some respect that you will leave the band. Then take G to one side and tell him he's acting in a spineless manner and he should speak up for himself. Good luck with your new band.

[Danny Bates]

You must remember that criticism is usually because of insecurity. And many people don't realize they're even doing it.

I would say something to both of them before the gig like "I'm in a good mood tonight. Let's all have fun tonight and keep everything nice and smooth. We could start by making sure that any comments between us are said in a positive and complimentary way" Then ask them both "Does that sound like a good plan?"

After that is said, when B gets on G's case, simply smile and give him the "don't do it" look. If he continues after your warnings, start another band with G and forget B because he is wrecking your nice vibe. And G sounds like a cool guy to be in a band with anyway.

[Charlie McDonald]

Criticism, and also sensitivity to criticism, is always due to insecurity.
So while I wish I could agree with Danny, I fear that constructive criticism directed at B will only bring out a defensive stance.

Better to hire drummer D and focus the criticism on him. The band will fall apart faster that way, as always happens when there's one guy who wants to determine taste. Individual tastes accommodating each other makes a band. Nothing else lasts.

[Ellis Miller]

This sounds like a very unprofessional ego driven situation, especially on B's part. Criticizing another band member on stage, probably within ear shot of the crowd, is very unprofessional not to mention rude and bad business. I would probably talk to B, but not very much for very long and I wouldn't carry anything in to the gig I couldn't carry out in one load - if you get my drift.

[Ron Page]

I'd air it out with both of them and make sure it's clear that your mainly criticizing the band leader. He's being unprofessional and, if they are friends, he's not being much of a friend.

[Danny Bates]

The point I was trying to make is that she needs to set her ground and remind B of what he's doing. He may just be a whiner and not realize that he's even doing it.

This situation is disturbing enough that it has caused her to ask our opinion on this forum.

Charlie said:

Criticism, and also sensitivity to criticism, is always due to insecurity

So I guess Simon on American Idol is just insecure with all of his millions of dollars and fame?

[Ellis Miller]

Danny -- Point well taken. May your kinder spirit prevail.

In that spirit, I would consider the situation as one I would not want to be involved in and would either try to change it or withdraw from it. Perhaps a respectful conversation about professional conduct would be in order - how we present ourselves on stage, how we appear to the audience - and that how we treat each other on stage impacts our professional presentation and therefore our success as a band. Someone made the point earlier that music is always a team effort and we should be supporting each other. Criticism, although sometimes appropriate should be approached respectfully, after the gig and not in front of the audience or other musicians. Certainly not on stage. Management 101 tells us we should "praise in public and criticize in private". If B and G have unresolved personal issues they should not be brought to the bandstand.

I would suggest that the bottom line here is professionalism. Maybe B and G need to come to a meeting of the minds as to what that means and establish some ground rules and expectations. FYI - professionalism is not about being perfect or not making mistakes. It is about how we conduct ourselves in the professional environment. I have played in a couple of situations where band members did not particularly like each other, but when we took the stage, everyone put on their professional demeanor and did their best to get the job done for the benefit of all.

If B is not receptive to conducting himself in a professional manner, You may want to start looking for another band.

Dayna, my apologies for not being more helpful in my previous post. Good luck

[James Cann]

No, No, No. This is all wrong.

Get rid of B. This is not about music; it's about power and ego borne of insecurity. If that isn't enough, this forum is rife with posts about how bandleaders cause trouble. There was no such thing back in the 70s as they would have wreaked the same havoc back then.

[Steve Norman]

It looks bad for the whole band to have someone criticized on stage, yourself included. For that reason alone I would talk to the bandleader about stage presence and professionalism.

[Dayna Wills]

You guys are great, sometimes silly, but great! I am thinking over what you all have said.....
Due to a family illness, G will be out of town for the next couple of gigs. B has hired a childhood buddy who plays guitar. We'll call him R. Now B doesn't want to work with R fulltime because R has a drinking problem and falls off the wagon from time to time. Plus, R has worked a single for a long time and he is set in his ways.
Do you think if I waited until the weekend is over and B has had enough of R, and will be missing G, before I bring up how mean B has been acting toward G?

[Ellis Miller]

OK - now we have a guy with a drinking problem in the mix. The plot thickens.

[Ken Lang]

If B and G have been working together for 2-3 years, I would think they get along no matter what.

G probably doesn't listen much to what B says. She knows that's just the way B is and it really doesn't bother her. It sounds like they dig at each other a bit, tho B does more of it.

Now B probably doesn't realize he does it as much as he does but G takes it. I would think they like working together, otherwise B would have black and white ivories in his face instead of pearly whites.

[Jim Cohen]

Due to a family illness, G will be out of town for the next couple of gigs. B has hired a childhood buddy who plays guitar. We'll call him R. Now B doesn't want to work with R fulltime because R has a drinking problem and falls off the wagon from time to time. Plus, R has worked a single for a long time and he is set in his ways.
Do you think if I waited until the weekend is over and B has had enough of R, and will be missing G, before I bring up how mean B has been acting toward G?

What is that quote from Hunter S. Thompson about how "the music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side..."

[Johnne Lee Ables]

I've seen this scenario many times in dyad therapy with my patients.

The bandleader is dependent on the guitarist and he is unable to adequately express his gratitude without having negative feeling about himself and feeling more vulnerable. Therefore he finds fault with the individual he is dependent upon in order to support his own feelings of self-worth and negate the dependency. The guitarist feels more secure because of the bandleader's dependent situation. The guitarist's insecurity, and or co-dependence, prevents them from assertively addressing the bandleader's behavior. Endless circle unless intervention happens.

As a therapist, I'd ask the bandleader what he was trying to accomplish and if it was being accomplished or if it worsened the situation. The answer is obvious. The situation is worsened. Is this what the bandleader wants? No one else does!!!

However, as a bandmember, and an ex-grunt, I'd tell the bandleader in no uncertain terms to watch his behavior or he'd better duck! (Gee, how untherapeurtic is that, but a great catharsis for me!) ; -]

So you must pic your approach!

Geez... I thought I'd retired from my second career, too!

Johnne Lee

[Bo Borland]

OY VEY !

[Edward Meisse]

I don't get many gigs. Just a few a year. No doubt one of the reasons is that I wouldn't tolerate B for even one night. He'd have to knock off the crap or I'd be gone. I'd have asked him what the problem was on the very first night.

[Danny Bates]

Johnne, you really nailed the relationship between B and G... very impressive!

I'd like your take on this statement from daynawills original post.. she said:

BTW, I joined the duo to help B when he lost his voice, due to surgery. He is now able to sing, but he insists that he wants me to stay with them.

I am curious what may be lurking in the mind of B? daynawills helped him out while his voice was shot and now she isn't really needed. Why is she still there? (other than the fact that she's an asset to the band) Why isn't he bugging her? Is she too secure for his wrath?

[Dave Mudgett]

Oy Vey is right - too much drama for me. If it was interfering with the performance or bugged me to the point where I wanted to get out - which I haven't heard - I'd confront it. But if it was musically OK and it's just two guys kvetching at each other, I'd leave 'em alone.

Now, if the guitar player told me this riding really bugged him and wanted my advice about what to do, it'd be different. Otherwise, it goes in the category of unsolicited and possibly unwanted advice. My take.

[Edward Meisse]

You're right, Dave. But I just couldn't take it.

[Donny Hinson]

A few thoughts:

No one can make you feel inferior (you do that yourself).

No one can take advantage of you without your permission.

EVERYONE makes mistakes. (Yes, even him.)

Get over it, and move on to the next song...or next band...or the next occupation/hobby. Life's too short to worry about chicken-$#!&.

If you can't laugh at mistakes and criticism, you shouldn't be in the entertainment business.

"I complained I had no shoes, until I saw a man with no feet."

[Steve Norman]

less B AND G and more steel

[Johnne Lee Ables]

Johnne, you really nailed the relationship between B and G... very impressive!

I'd like your take on this statement from daynawills original post.. she said:

BTW, I joined the duo to help B when he lost his voice, due to surgery. He is now able to sing, but he insists that he wants me to stay with them.

I am curious what may be lurking in the mind of B? daynawills helped him out while his voice was shot and now she isn't really needed. Why is she still there? (other than the fact that she's an asset to the band) Why isn't he bugging her? Is she too secure for his wrath?

Hey Danny,

I do appreciate the kind words. Thank you very much!

As far as "D" & "B" are concerned...

Without hearing/seeing "D" & "B" interact it is impossible to answer those questions (Which actually is true of "B" & "G" as well.) But if I am allowed to read between the lines...

"B" is still worried (perhaps subconsciously) about his voice. I would be and most others would as well. Vocal problems have a tendency to become chronic. And they can re-occur with virtually no prodromal symptoms.

I have an old friend (A great singer, natch) who routinely says "Good guitar players are a dime-a-dozen. Good singers are rare." As I'm sure you are aware, for most people the band (almost any band you can name) is about the vocalist. The average listener doesn't know (or care about) the difference between John Hughey and Russ Pahl, but if Vince ain't out front and singin' - LOOK OUT!

So, I think a similar mechanism is at play with "B" and "D". But he knows (perhaps subconsciously) that his current singer might be VERY difficult to replace on short notice. There are gazillion pickers lookin' fer' work, huh? So, perhaps, some of "B's" behavior is displaced from the vocalist "D" to the guitarist "G"! I've seen stranger! WAY stranger.

Does that answer the questions you asked? I can be very verbose and drift off focus! NO, really! ; -]

Tale 2 aspirin and call me in the morning! You'll get my bill! : -)

Thanks again for the kind words, Danny! (Not to mention the opportunity to pontificate, huh?)

Johnne Lee

PS - Believe it or not...people actually pay for this stuff...

PSS - My dear Wife of decades just loves it that I can do this stuff. All my excuses for relationship faux pas are gone!!! DANG ME! DANG ME! DANG ME!! What WAS I thinking?

[chris ivey]

dayna...does this alphabet soup ever hang out at the western swing society??