Slanting the wrist

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 23 Mar 2008 11:07 am

Depending on which guitar/steel I'm playing (if you can call it that), the number of strings and string spacing......I use a variety of bars......I have a few favorite bars that do not have a recess in the back....they're smooth....

I find it very difficult to perform (if you can call it that) reverse slants, especially with the longer bars......

I know it's said that using your wrist instead of your fingers is a no no.....and that you can never get the correct tone if you slant your wrist.....

Is anybody doing it this way with success? and this is for reverse slants only,.....I have no problem with forward slants.....

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 23 Mar 2008 11:39 am

My understanding is that the general tendency is for bullet bar players to slant with the fingers and for grooved bar players to use the wrist. I believe that I've seen Mike Auldridge using his wrist for a reverse slant.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 23 Mar 2008 11:55 am

Bob Brozman uses the wrist slant method very effectively. The finger slant method, as propigated by Jerry Byrd, seems to offer the best opportunity for greater precision and economy of movement but I'm not gonna tell Mike Auldridge and Bob Brozman they're doin' it wrong! It works just fine for them. Technique is just a means to an end. If for your personal anatomy, wrist slants work are easier and you can get the notes you need in tune and in tempo, I don't see a problem with going with what works for you, Howard.

Jay Yuskaitis · Post by **Jay Yuskaitis** » 23 Mar 2008 12:29 pm

Howard, I've been twisting my wrist for about 40 years, I've tried desperately to try Jerry Byrd's way of holding the bar, but to no avail. What I finally had to settle on was a steel like the Stevens or Shubb Pierce with a rounded nose. I've ruined a few steels by constantly dropping the bar on the cabinet. At this stage of the game, the only thing that helps me, is to stay seated as far to the right hand side of the steel as possible. This has helped my reverse slants somewhat. Oh, to have been born with just a smidgen of talent.
Jay Y.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 23 Mar 2008 12:45 pm

I avoid reverse slants altogether

However, if I am playing something that I need a reverse slant on I prep my hand a beat or two ahead of time and grab the bar with my fingers. If I'm improvising and I just have to do a reverse lickety split, I'll use my wrist.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 23 Mar 2008 12:58 pm

Try playin' slants when you're bottleneckin'! You gotta be very athletic and double-jointed!

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 23 Mar 2008 1:20 pm

A few yrs back John Ely had to take a long time off due to slanting with his wrist whuch did damage to his shoulder. cc

Harry Dietrich · Post by **Harry Dietrich** » 23 Mar 2008 1:49 pm

Howard

I'll send you a baloney bar to use...it's easy to do reverse slants with those.

Private joke.

Harry

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 23 Mar 2008 2:10 pm

Andy Volk wrote:Bob Brozman uses the wrist slant method very effectively.

Sure about that? At a workshop he held here I pulled out my SP2 bar that I was using at the time, and he told me "you need to get rid of that, you'll never be able to slant properly" and proceeded to demonstrate slants in 'all directions' with his bullet bar.

David Lindley seem to use his wrist on the few occasions when he slants, and here's how Jerry Douglas demonstrates 'proper' slant technique for dobroists:

Steinar

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 23 Mar 2008 2:53 pm

You guys got it easy! Well, so do I when I'm playin' dobro or lapsteel. Here's a 9th chord on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th string on bottleneck. Ya gotta drop your shoulder and twist your wrist in a completely abnormal way!

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 23 Mar 2008 8:04 pm

Errrr.....Mr. Johnson, I don't want to appear disrespectful but I don't think Mr. Ely could have hurt his shoulder if he was slanting at the wrist as it looks like Mr. Douglas is doing. I suspect that Mr. Ely was probably turning from the shoulder.

In any case your example makes it clear that there are good reasons to pay attention to one's technique when executing reverse slants.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 23 Mar 2008 9:21 pm

The injury and what caused it is described by Ely himself here - http://www.hawaiiansteel.com/learning/injury_prev.html

Can't see anything about wrist slants, but it is important reading for all steel players anyhow...

Steinar

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 24 Mar 2008 12:14 am

Here is what Jerry Byrd says about slants, forward AND reverse, in his 1960 Steel Guitar Course (he used the capital letters, underlined):

...the arm or wrist MUST NOT BE TURNED. All action is done by the fingers.

Regarding the "reverse slant", Jerry says:

...it is so important that the fingers do all the work in slanting, instead of the wrist, for if the wrist were used it would be impossible for you to make an accurate "reverse" slant.

Jerry then details 13 steps to the reverse slant... how the thumb slides to the back of the bar, how the first finger asserts pressure on the bar, etc. He devotes two pages to explaining how the fingers are re-positioned on the bar and how to execute the reverse slant.

It doesn’t get much more authoritative than Jerry Byrd! Of course, Jerry used a round bar, not the slotted type. I humbly concur with Jerry, and I too use the fingers for slants (with a round bar)... never the wrist. And I 'correct' my students when I see them turning the wrist to slant. The fingers allow for smoother action, smoother vibrato and faster movement, in my opinion.

Jerry hated slotted bars. He once wrote that the Stevens bar is "an absolute piece of junk".

I tend to agree with him.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 24 Mar 2008 2:15 am

Steinar, I saw a video of Bob using the wrist slant. Perhaps he doesn't use that method anymore or it's just one method in his bag of tricks. I learned to do finger slants from Byrd's instructional materials and for me, a wrist slant feels wrong.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 24 Mar 2008 2:57 am

thanks Ed and Steiner. I was refering to that article by memory so you both know what that means. I can't use the "getting old" excuse either. I was old 40 yrs ago. CC

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 24 Mar 2008 5:57 am

I suppose that if I were able to have some kind of recess cut/ground in the backs of those bars, that would solve the problem.....I would rather use my fingers as it is awkward and a bit uncomfortable to use the wrist.....

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 Mar 2008 6:43 am

One thing I notice with students is the guys that find it difficult to slant with there fingers tend to be clutching the bar which is actually the real problem. New guys with the slotted bar tend to lay there finger in the slot and push down with there wrist and hand bent. This can cause injury if they spend any time practicing.

Mark Mansueto · Post by **Mark Mansueto** » 24 Mar 2008 7:00 am

Doug Beaumier wrote:Here is what Jerry Byrd says about slants, forward AND reverse, in his 1960 Steel Guitar Course (he used the capital letters, underlined):

...the arm or wrist MUST NOT BE TURNED. All action is done by the fingers.

Regarding the "reverse slant", Jerry says:

...it is so important that the fingers do all the work in slanting, instead of the wrist, for if the wrist were used it would be impossible for you to make an accurate "reverse" slant.
Jerry then details 13 steps to the reverse slant... how the thumb slides to the back of the bar, how the first finger asserts pressure on the bar, etc. He devotes two pages to explaining how the fingers are re-positioned on the bar and how to execute the reverse slant.

It doesn’t get much more authoritative than Jerry Byrd! Of course, Jerry used a round bar, not the slotted type. I humbly concur with Jerry, and I too use the fingers for slants (with a round bar)... never the wrist. And I 'correct' my students when I see them turning the wrist to slant. The fingers allow for smoother action, smoother vibrato and faster movement, in my opinion.

Jerry hated slotted bars. He once wrote that the Stevens bar is "an absolute piece of junk". I tend to agree with him.

I don't disagree with anything Jerry said except for the last comment.

Doesn't the style of music generally dictate what type of bar is used? ie: most Hawaiian music is played with a round bar and most bluegrass with a scuptured bar.

I've never heard it explained but I've always thought that the players that keep the bar on the strings most of the time prefer the round bar and those that lift a lot prefer the sculptured bar.

I started with a round bar years ago but the sculptured bar suites what I play very well.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 24 Mar 2008 8:19 am

To Jerry, the Stevens type bars are worthless for steel guitar the way he played and taught it.

Per Steiner's pic of JD's reverse, and assuming he's showing the full extent he can go comfotably/accutately, then he's not able to get the more extreme rev. slants, thus limiting his abilities.
Of course, in JD's case, who's gonna quible.

Bill Leach · Post by **Bill Leach** » 24 Mar 2008 8:53 am

I can't see how anyone can play reverse slants with the wrist, my wrist doesn't seem to want to bend that way - the JD picks are making me wince. I can vouch for using fingers for slants - After a few gigs last week I found myself getting lazy and using my wrist for faster forward slants resulting in much wrist pain this week.

Bill

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 24 Mar 2008 9:26 am

Jerry Byrd’s comment about the Stevens bar was criticized when it was posted here a few years ago. I can understand the criticism... it’s a pretty harsh comment, and it does not take into account all styles of 'slide' playing. I do tend to agree with JB, however. A groove in a bar severely inhibits the smooth rolling vibrato, in my opinion. Some players don’t care about that. It IS a style thing. I think of the grooved bars as 'slides', not as 'bars'. It seems to me that a player loses more than he gains by having a slot in the bar. Just my opinion.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 24 Mar 2008 9:28 am

And shared by many, Doug.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 24 Mar 2008 10:15 am

I think slotted bars are very valuable for acoustic players who use alot of open strings and hammers on and pulls off. But for up the neck play they are inferior. And I agree with Mr. Byrd regarding their use on electric instruments. I think it is readily appearant that different techniques and different bars can serve different purposes. I don't think it's as simple as this is always best and that is always wrong. But Mr. Ely and Ms. Ruymar do have something to say about posture. I study Tai Chi Chuan. And while it is ostensibly a martial art, what it is really on about is correct posture and how to use your body most effectively. Learning to do that is a good idea no matter what you're up to. The Alexander method is another way to learn the same thing.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 24 Mar 2008 10:57 am

I tend to use both my fingers and my wrist at the same time when slanting. I just dug through my parts and found a round bar that's only 5/8' in diameter. It sounds darn good, and is easy to handle. When doing hammers and pulls, I turn the bar around and use the blunt end. I really don't like that Shubb bar with the "ski-jump" end.

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 24 Mar 2008 11:34 am

Hey Edward, check out my friend, Ross Costa's site - www.rosscosta.com

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