Paul said this about C6th??

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 31 Dec 2007 6:12 am

From the May 1981 Steel Guitarist magazine, Paul Frankln said on page 31, that 'the C6th neck is really coming back', now that was almost 27 years ago & I am still waiting, how about you guys?? I wonder if Paul still stands by that statement?
I still love the C6th neck or B6, either one. Paul also stated that 'the steel guitar is not headed toward a universal tuning, but the steel is heading toward a C6th neck'. Wow that part sure has not happened yet, heck, its only been 27 years, give it a chance!!

Ernie Pollock

Alan Harrison · Post by **Alan Harrison** » 31 Dec 2007 6:27 am

Hi Ernie, I guess it depends where, and with whom your playing, I'm in deep, deep South Texas (Lee Baucum Country) and C6th is alive and well down here and I love it. I probably play on the "FUN" neck 60% of the time...Alan

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 31 Dec 2007 6:28 am

Well over a 27 year period with the way musical fads come and go in the recording studio it could have come back and then left and come back many times.

Why are you waiting for it to come back?? Just play it and enjoy it and don't worry about its' status.

I am glad the things I said 27 years ago are not written down for folks to ponder over.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 31 Dec 2007 6:53 am

In NYC over 2 thirds of my live gigs are playing C6 these days. Thats playing bars and restaurants. I would not be getting enough work without it. For the straight up country gigs I spend a good deal of time on the C neck also.
Recording is mostly E9 at this point. I figure that may change as I get better on the C neck.

For students its just about 100 percent E9 tuning. It seems like the basic E9 sound is what captivates people in the first place.

If us steel players could play the C neck like Paul it just might be more popular !

John McGlothlin · Post by **John McGlothlin** » 31 Dec 2007 6:54 am

I love C6th so much that I'm thinking seriously about converting my E9th to C6 so I'll have to of'em. Paul Franklin is a whiz on C6th but the thing Paul never mentioned in that article was that its not the muscian who decides what he will play when he is working for a record producer to put bread and butter on the table...record producers are not even interested in steel guitar...if the public wants a microwave sound or a sound like someone shaking a sack full of hub caps then the record producer wants that...C6th is alive and well today and will always be. John

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 31 Dec 2007 7:27 am

Well thanks alot John!

Now not only do I have to go out and get a sack and some hub caps but I got to get a bigger seat to hold it all.

Where does it all end?

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 31 Dec 2007 9:36 am

I think for most people the C6 is a more versatile neck. So I think it is going to eventually become the dominant one. As I continue to ponder buying a pedal guitar, the idea of E9 never enters my head. But then I don't play country. And I associate E9 not just with country but with a very distinct and very limited version of country. Most of the country music I like best was played on nonpedal where the C6 and A6 necks are dominant to this day.

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 31 Dec 2007 10:34 am

I don't think the C6th will ever become the "dominant" neck until someone gets some modern sounds from it. Sixth tunings still have that old Hawaiian thing going for them no matter what you do with 'em. You can play some great blues and rock with a 6th tuning but that's mostly single note things and little if any chord work.

As far as jazz, that's great sounding on a C6th but just as effective on an E9th and maybe cleaner. I'd like to see someone make a good jazz CD on E9th without the "boomy" chords that most of them use. A horn player doesn't use any chords to play good jazz so why couldn't someone do it on E9th? All the notes are there if you look for them.

I play mostly guitar first and steel second and I've found that playing jazz and pop are much easier on pedal steel than on a six string guitar due to the fact that you don't have to do anything with your left hand except hold and move the bar for chordwork.

I'd live to see someone make a jazz CD of Charlie Parker tunes on E9th with just the melody notes, no chords, in front of a smokin' jazz combo of piano bass & drums..........JH in Va.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 31 Dec 2007 10:49 am

...until someone gets some modern sounds from it...

That's what I think I was saying about E9. One of the reasons I'm so comfortable on a non pedal guitar is that I'm not a chord person at all. I think that the steel is not nearly so much a chord instrument as it is a melody instrument. But I guess if you're playing melody and mostly single notes, it doesn't matter much what tuning you're using. I'd love to hear a top hand play some jazz with all of the proverbial stops pulled out on ANY neck and/or with any tuning. Not having played a pedal guitar, I may not have the kind of experience one would need to comment on this in a knowledgeable way. But for me the SOUNDS that John Hughey was getting out of his C6 with The Time Jumpers is more likely to lead to a pedal guitar jazz sound than anything I've HEARD from any E9 player. But again, I'd love to hear some full blown jazz on a steel, even if the guy doing it proves me dead wrong.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 31 Dec 2007 11:08 am

I don't think the C6th will ever become the "dominant" neck until someone gets some modern sounds from it.

But you CAN get modern sounds out of it, just not modern country (unless you include the stuff that's really just rock with country lyrics)...as Jerry notes, rock and blues work great, but I disagree with him about chord work. If you avoid that 6th, or play 3 frets up for blues, depending on your copedent you can play plenty cliche...or creative...rock chord riffs.

I play a B6, 8 string, 9+2 copedent, with the 6th on the 3rd and 7th strings (a slight reversal of sequence from standard C6) and it works perfectly well for more traditional country using E9-style A&B pedals, as well as rock oriented stuff with a 2nd and 6th string full-step pull for blues turnarounds and other "normal" rock stuff. The same things could easily be adapted to the standard C6 tuning, but not without changing the copedent away from the western-swing or Hawaiian oriented changes.

But even with the standard changes C6 is better suited for single-string leads when playing outside traditional country, which is I think what Paul was referring to. I recall reading that with Dire Straits much of his bluesier-rock work was on the C6 neck, and if you were to try to play prog rock (Yes, Gentle Giant, King Crimson) or jazzier rock (think Steely Dan) C6 seems much better suited than E9.

I'm aware that some guys can play the heck out of rock on an E9 neck - but it's not as natural, and certainly not as easy unless you add to the semi-standard 3+4 "starting" pedals/levers.

Once I found the rock basics in the B6 copedent that also included E9-type changes (essentially an early universal, but think of it in "reverse") I quit trying to play E9 permanently, as even if I play the occasional country tunes I'm all set with my B6 copedent (thanks to Sneaky, who developed it but used it in a different way).

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 31 Dec 2007 11:29 am

A hundred years from now, only little girls will be playing steel guitar..

EJL

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 31 Dec 2007 11:40 am

I'm convinced that E9 is a far more versatile tuning that C6. It's more difficult to avoid that typical 'colour' on the C neck. It's not impossible, but more difficult.

E9, once you stop emulating old country licks on it, is the more modern tuning.

RR

JERRY THURMOND · Post by **JERRY THURMOND** » 31 Dec 2007 12:09 pm

You would more likely be suprised if you knew how often Paul plays C6 on his sissions.

Jerry

Jeff Garden · Post by **Jeff Garden** » 31 Dec 2007 12:38 pm

I know this is a C6 discussion but as an aside... for those that may think E9 is somewhat limiting, take a listen to Randy Beavers "The Next Step" CD. Every song is played on the E9 neck but if I hadn't seen him play the complete CD live on E9 at St. Louis, I would have sworn there was some C6 in there...

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 31 Dec 2007 1:08 pm

Jeff:

That's an excellent example - dig deep on E9 and everything is there; I don't think the same is true of C6th.

I'm on the verge of switching from D10 to extended E9 - I believe it's the best way forward for me, as I feel that all 10-string E9 lacks is some low end.

I'm not quite convinced about what I'll need on a 12-string E9 in the way of pulls, but I'm working on it!

RR

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 31 Dec 2007 1:10 pm

A hundred years from now, only little girls will be playing steel guitar..

A hundred years? It's already happened...

Ernie Pollock · Post by **Ernie Pollock** » 31 Dec 2007 1:15 pm

I will say this is an interesting can of worms I opened here!! One thing I will say, in my 32 years of playing steel guitar, most on universal E9th / B6th guitars, I don't think the bands I played in knew what the hell I was putting in there songs, E9th or B6 licks, if they like your playing [which most of them did] they will let you 'do your thing' & I used lots of 6th based licks, still do. But, damn it, I still like E9th too, its almost as bad as having two wifes!!
But I sure like em both!!
Ernie

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 31 Dec 2007 1:32 pm

Ernie just said a mouth full -- listen carefully

WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE A CLUE HOW (what tuning, what strings, what changes) WE PLAY WHAT WE PLAY.

If you are hired for a session or live date, the only thing that's expected of you is to play something that's appropriate. If you're playing a single string solo, it makes absolutely no difference which neck you are playing it on. The notes are the same.

HOWEVER . . .

. . . if you're playing jazzed up chords in a straight country song and the producer or band leader wants simple 3 chord country, you're liable to get the boot.

The only place we have license to play what WE WANT TO PLAY is IN OUR PRACTICE ROOM. Any time you play for an audience or a producer or a band leader, you are held to their standards. If you want to keep the job you will learn what those standards are and how to meet the expectations that go with them.

We've all heard guys play closely voiced C-sixthy chords on E9 and some have even heard folks mimic Together Again on C6. The tuning is not the thing -- THE TASTE AND MUSICALITY are the thing.

Any successful musician will tell you that you dance with the one that brung you -- that means whoever is paying your salary. I've played for folks who love it when I cut loose and show off and for those who want it the same way every time -- simple and melodic. It is important to be able to tell one from the other.

The only ones who talk about tunings and copedents are steel players. There may be a few exceptions but most producers and leaders are looking for a sound. How you get it is up to you.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 31 Dec 2007 1:40 pm

Of course that's true, Larry - but this is a discussion among steel-players. Voicing an opinion as to which tuning lends itself best to which genre is surely not inappropriate?

We must always play what's required if we're taking wages. I've never yet had a Music Director ask me what knee-lever I'm going to use!

Happy 2008 to you and Brenda from Susie and me!

RR

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 31 Dec 2007 2:20 pm

And the same right back at you, Roger

I certainly didn't intend to imply that the discussion was not appropriate -- only that the music is more important than how one chooses to go about it.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 31 Dec 2007 2:46 pm

I started on C6th at the same time I did E9th in 71'. I believe it's the player, not necessary the tuning. I've always preferred keeping the two tuning separate to play certain things. For me, E9th has always been the bread & butter neck, so to speak. C6th is mostly for fun playing with western swing, blues, etc. The only tuning I have yet to try is the Julian Tharpe tuning, E96, I think it is. My understanding is that the first 7 strings are from the E9th side and the other 7(on a 14 string) are from the C6th side. I believe that's what Bill Stafford told me a few years back. I don't exactly know but from listening to some of the JT recordings, it sounds to me like he was using both tuning as one, therefore mixing E9th & C6th sounds. Getting back to the C6th subject, I guess the reason I tend to keep it separate from E9th is listening to C6th players from years ago and today as well. The C6th is alive and well. I encourage new players to learn both necks at the same time. I imagine a beginner model D-10 will probably show up somewhere down the line at some point.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 31 Dec 2007 4:14 pm

There's sure a lot of music, out of either neck, and what style it fits, depends much on the person that's sitting behind it.

Everyone have a great New Year.

Don

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 1 Jan 2008 9:04 am

Has anyone converted a ten string E9th to an E6?

It would be interesting to see how the 4 (0r 5)and 3 peddles would be set up.

I've heard it said that sometimes the low notes on the C6th clash with the bass. Maybe this would avoid this a tad.
It seems I read that Hal Rugg had an E6th on his lower neck.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Jan 2008 9:58 am

Andy,
E6 is Al Marcus' favorite tuning. Al is a true veteran pedal steel player and he's been through it all -- from nonpedal to the MultiKord through the modern pedal steel. He has both 10 and 12 string tunings he has used. He is a walking encyclopedia of steel guitar.

Maybe Al will chime in (pun intended) with more information. If not, search for his name and E6 and you'll probably find his setup listed.

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 1 Jan 2008 10:57 am

Keep in mind Paul plays better E9 on a C6 neck than most. Hmmmm maybe a goal for the new year!!!

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