Does This C6th Change Make Any Sense??

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 18 Dec 2007 6:40 am

I was talking with a few players at the PSGA show that were experimenting with the C6 tuning of D,E,C,A,G,E,D,C,A,F. What if I implemented the following knee lever change to get the DCA change on the lower part of the C6 tuning? This would be great for single string playing and just in different order than the chromatic D,E,C,A on the top of the tuning.

As an aside, does anyone know if my MSA Legend can pull these strings this far?

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 18 Dec 2007 9:02 am

Greg
You are asking a lot to pull heavy wound strings 8 & 9 all that way. I have no experience with the modern MSA, but I think that any guitar would struggle with what you are proposing.

Ken

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 18 Dec 2007 9:52 am

When I was playing a D-10, I sacrificed the low C to get the middle D like those other players you talked to. I also lowered the F to D on P5, because the low D seemed more important to me than the F#. I've since switched to a D-12 to get that low C string (and the F# note) back.

The problem I see with the knee lever you propose (mechanical considerations aside) is that it doesn't allow the standard pedal changes. You would have to release the lever to get the low F# from P5, for example. That's one of the notes that you need below the new middle D string.

I think you should simply lower your middle E to D on the lever, or raise your middle C to D. Either one will give you an idea of what that note adds to the tuning without messing up your other changes.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 18 Dec 2007 10:49 am

Thanks for the replies.

b0b, I was looking at using this for single string licks and need the D,C, E and A notes at the same time for continuity. I hadn't even thought about chord changes.

I found that Paul Franklin has this change here

Ken, I didn't get a chance over lunch to see how far my guitar would raise those strings but I did get it to lower the 6th E9th string four half tones from G# to E. So the guitar's changer is pretty good in that direction. I have that change split with my B floor pedal so the split gives me a F#. I may take of my 5th string B to Bb change in favor of this. Paul Franklin has this change here

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 18 Dec 2007 10:57 am

Greg

I tried that briefly on my Emmons LeGrande 111 - it was good in theory, but was way too heavy (I had it on P4) and slow to engage.

RR

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Dec 2007 11:01 am

Check out Paul's 5th pedal:
http://b0b.com/tunings/pf_c6.htm

It worked fine on my Franklin. I found that I left it in all the time so I changed my C neck to the no low C with an added middle D. It makes the C neck into a big pentatonic scale. Lots of nice options opened up for me and it made reading more easy.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 18 Dec 2007 12:42 pm

Bob,

I have been thinking along those lines.... what does your C6 neck look like now?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Dec 2007 1:46 pm

Mike,
My C neck:
D
E
C
A
G
E
D
C
A
F

All those whole steps are nice for scales. Many of the same patterns work on my C neck that I use on the E neck. You are welcome to drop by whenever.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 18 Dec 2007 1:52 pm

That looks very logical, Bob! I wonder if I dare try it, and how much it would - temporarily, anyway - mess me up!?

RR

Steve Alonzo Walker · Post by **Steve Alonzo Walker** » 18 Dec 2007 7:11 pm

I've used this tuning for years thanks to Terry Crisp. Having the "D" in the middle helps play without moving the bar too much to get those scale licks. P4 raises bottom F to F# and C to C# and top D to D#, P5 raises middle D to D# and E to F which gives an F7 chord. My P6 & P7 are the normal P5 & P6 on regular C6th tunings. My P8 raises the usual C to D and A to B. I get all the usual C6th chords and a few extra. The only drawback that I know is the different sounds when raking across the bottom strings.

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 18 Dec 2007 7:17 pm

Greg, in a word....NO! Why is everyone always trying to "re-invent the wheel?" You can either play or you can't. Who needs shortcuts??? or invent something new??

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 18 Dec 2007 7:20 pm

Thanks Steve! That's all the stuff Terry was trying to tell me at the PSGA show! I just couldn't take it all in at one time and should've been writing down some notes about all the stuff he was telling me. Guess I was just blown away that all the time I was listening to him play earlier, I had no idea he was using a different tuning.

Greg

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 18 Dec 2007 7:20 pm

Greg, in a word....NO! Why is everyone always trying to "re-invent the wheel?" You can either play or you can't. Who needs shortcuts??? or invent something new??

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 18 Dec 2007 7:23 pm

Doug,

I just manually tuned my guitar to the above changes and it's pretty cool. Not only do the intervals work in the base pocket, they give you a lot more notes, faster, in the other pockets. Now I wish I had an 11 or 12 string tuning!

Greg

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 18 Dec 2007 11:56 pm

Doug Seymour wrote:Greg, in a word....NO! Why is everyone always trying to "re-invent the wheel?" You can either play or you can't. Who needs shortcuts??? or invent something new??

Greg C-
***I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH DOUG SEYMOUR

***
I have been using this change on my LKL for many years now at the advice of Mike Cass
I did not realize it is "something new"

It makes playing a whole tone scale much easier and I find it great for single string work
I have it installed on my MSA Millenium on the fourth pedal instead of the LKL
The F to A is a long pull but it will work-I have found some new sounds working it in combination with pedal five
It is also useful with the A-Ab change on the fourth string now on my LKL instead of pedal 4
I dropped using the "standard" C6TH pedal four change on my Emmons P/P years ago in favor of what B.E. was using-that being the previously mentioned A-Ab lower on the fourth string
I think it is a very useful change-much more so than raising the A's to B on strings 4 and 8
I am NOT a GREAT C6TH player $:\$
I am not wanting to "re-invent the wheel" or the pedal steel guitar for that matter

I do welcome any "shortcut" that helps me understand playing the neck that I am less proficient at
I do not see anything wrong with that at all

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 19 Dec 2007 5:35 am

Paul,

That's good news for me. I have the A to Ab change on a knee lever on the other knee. That means I can use any floor pedal and the A to Ab change with the DCA change. Now I need to find 2 more bell cranks for my Legend!

Greg

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Dec 2007 9:12 am

I'm a little disturbed that Doug Seymour feels that no-one should attempt to 're-invent the wheel...'!

Does he think, then, that we should blindly accept what's been dictated to us, and that changes should only be approved by a tiny minority of 'master players'?

Sounds a bit 'Big-Brother-like' to me! I thought that pedal steel guitar was a constantly-evolving concept, or have I misunderstood?

RR

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Dec 2007 10:54 am

The middle D works for me but is not for everybody. It is an easy thing to try out. Just grab a .034 D string from your pack of E9 strings and stick it in there.

I don't suggest that new students of mine use it until
they are familiar with the more standard C6 tuning.

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 19 Dec 2007 11:10 am

I would assume that I should pick gauges for the strings based on the midpoint of its range? I wouldn't want to size the C to A string based on the pull to A and have it sound a little loose (that's a new word to describe tone!) at C with the pedal disengaged. Or maybe I should size them for minimum pedal travel?

Greg

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 19 Dec 2007 11:18 am

Didn't Curly Chalker have that tuning on his guitar?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Dec 2007 12:10 pm

Greg,
I don't understand the string gauge issue. I already have an F,A and middle C string. I just shift them over one and put the D string in between the C and E strings. If you are playing a D10 just use the D string that works on your E neck. I use the extra big low C string to tie the bumper to my pickup truck.

Just use the strings you already have.

I shift the pedal changes over one along with the strings I am shifting over. Nothing much to relearn
except string grips.

Craig,
It seems to me that if you want to play what Curly played you gotta keep that low C. He was king of those low fat chords with the moving bass notes.

Larry Weaver · Post by **Larry Weaver** » 19 Dec 2007 12:19 pm

Really interesting thread guys. Bob, I wonder if you get a chance if you could post your full C6 setup. I'm toying with the thought of another d-10, and I'd love to see your setup.

best,
LarryW

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 19 Dec 2007 12:38 pm

Bob,

My string gauge question relates to keeping my existing tuning, and adding a pedal/lever to raise 3 strings up to D,C,A.

Greg

Ken Byng · Post by **Ken Byng** » 19 Dec 2007 12:44 pm

Greg Cutshaw wrote:Doug,

I just manually tuned my guitar to the above changes and it's pretty cool. Not only do the intervals work in the base pocket, they give you a lot more notes, faster, in the other pockets. Now I wish I had an 11 or 12 string tuning!

Greg

Hi Greg
On my latest ShoBud D12, I have the following open C6 tuning.

D
G (high)
E
C
A
G
E
C
A
F
D
C

The low D is very useful and a logical place to put it.

Ken

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Dec 2007 3:30 pm

Greg,
When I had those big pulls on my Franklin I used standard C6 strings. It worked fine. Sorry I misunderstood your post.