Conundrum

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 24 Dec 2005 10:17 am

I'll share with the group a conundrum I've been facing lately. I'm not even sure conundrum is the right word but here it is:

I'm torn. On the one hand I love the sound of my 12 string SuperSlide. It is not just the tone that is fantastic, but just the freedom of playing it. I also use a smaller bar with the lap steel.

On the other hand I love the chord possibities with my pedal steel. I also play with a much larger bar on pedal.

Some days I come down to the practice room and say, this is it: I'm focusing on Pedal. It just has so many possibilities! there I am working out scales without ever having to move the bar. It is fantastic the lick possibilities.

The next day I sit down at the Superslide, and I think, oh my god. This is the sound I want to hear the rest of my life. I'll focus on the lap steel, and suddenly I'm playing scales by moving the bar all over the place and it sounds unique and bluesy and like a horn.

Oh, and then there is this whole idea of focus: I'm 51. I want to get good and I have a company to run, so I think I must focus if I'm ever going to get great at one of these things.

And the next day the cycle begins again.

It is getting me loco.

So what is it: the sound I love but fewer chordal possibilities? The chordal freedom to play what I want but without the sound that I crave?

Anyone else suffering the inability to make a decision? I should add, that every time I start playing the other instrument, I'm convinced that is the one.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 24 Dec 2005 10:47 am

*[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 05 April 2006 at 04:50 AM.]

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 24 Dec 2005 1:45 pm

Bill, just keep doing both. From what you say, there are elements of each that you cherish. So why should you give up something you groove on?
Playing both makes you more "employable" for lack of a better word. A lot of the top players do it all - look at Bucky Baxter, Gary Brandin, Bobbe Seymour, Don Herron to name a few . .

And it all relates - what you learn on one axe will be relative to the other. Get a banjo and a mandolin too while you're at it!

RA

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 24 Dec 2005 1:58 pm

Well, my son's the mandolin player so we have 5 of them around the house.

And I told my wife she could have me committed if I ever brought home a banjo.

David Ward · Post by **David Ward** » 24 Dec 2005 2:42 pm

Bill,

I'll be the first to answer you directly. Go with the SuperSlide. Personally, I feel that lap steels have a more 'honest' sound. It's just an opinion and neither right nor wrong.

David

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 24 Dec 2005 2:44 pm

Keep 'em both going and enjoy what's great about each of them. You have at least another 51 years to get great on both!

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 24 Dec 2005 3:01 pm

Whether you know it or not, every day you are feeding each animal. Each instrument is richer from your knowledge of the other. Sounds like your only problem is the mindset of a deadline or a finish line. I believe you will be best rewarded by continuing the way you are doing it, but without the anxiety that you are doing either the instruments or yourself a disservice.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 24 Dec 2005 3:23 pm

Bill, it's very much like the Jewish dilema.....free ham!

Terry Farmer · Post by **Terry Farmer** » 24 Dec 2005 3:23 pm

Light's Right! It's the Journey, not the destination. Enjoy them both. You will never stop learning. Peace.

Delvin Morgan · Post by **Delvin Morgan** » 24 Dec 2005 3:48 pm

Sounds something like me, I am relearning the 6 string guitar after an 18 year absence trying to learn the banjo, that's right the banjo and the hamonica. As well as learning the pedal steel with the help of a teacher

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Emmons S-10,Nashville-112,Peavey Pro-Fex II,5 guitars and a banjo

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 24 Dec 2005 4:06 pm

I'm with Jon Light -- my pedal playing has benefited so much from lap. Also, any time spent playing pedal steel benefits lap, just the tone-, touch-, feel-, bar- and pick-work.

Al

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 24 Dec 2005 4:40 pm

Do you have complete songs worked out from start to finsh that you can gig with and people want to hear? No matter how many different instruments you play, it comes down to that if your trying to get somewhere with it.

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 24 Dec 2005 4:48 pm

I started out on lap steel when I was a kid. A 10 string Ricky which I still have. Then took a 30 year break. Picked up pedal steel again and played that for a few months and then got the super slide. I'm in no rush at this point. I'm enjoying my lap steel. Easy to carry, tune, and I dig the sound I get with it. I want to really learn this 12 string tuning and when I get to the point that I know it all (or most of it) I'll maybe go to a 12 string MSA Millineum.

Like I said, I'm in no rush. Just enjoying the ride.

Rick

Mitch Druckman · Post by **Mitch Druckman** » 24 Dec 2005 9:22 pm

Bill,
I think you may have answered your own question when you said,

"So what is it: the sound I love but fewer chordal possibilities? The chordal freedom to play what I want but without the sound that I crave?"

If you are not hearing "the sound that you crave" on pedal steel than what is the value of all the chord variations? It seems that at this point you have an intellectual relationship going with the pedal steel, while you find the Superslide emotionally fulfilling. My experience in music has always shown that a purely intellectual or technical relationship with an instrument is only good for bringing out ego and is useless when it comes to making good music. Without an emotional connection your music will always be somewhat cold and lifeless regardless whether it is complex, clever or sophisticated. If you really want to communicate deeply with your music, then first of all you must love the sounds you are creating. Start from a simple place and let it grow from there. Take your own advice, follow your bliss and develop your talent on the Superslide.

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 26 Dec 2005 9:00 pm

Bill,

It is a age old dilemma:

Cognating vs. Emoting

Happy New Year.

Don

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 26 Dec 2005 9:33 pm

Have I put myself in an impossible situation? I like the possibilities on the PSG, but; I'm very much wrapped up in the sound of a Non-Pedal steel, so; I've combined both on to one D–10 PSG. Now I can play both Pedal & (Non-Pedal if I choose) on just (1)-instrument and don't have to set up and tear down! I guess my biggest challange now will be to sound like two different instruments with just one! [You can play Non-Pedal Steel on a PSG, but; it's impossible to play PSG on a Non-Pedal Steel *in the conventional~way!] *Emulation!

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“Big John” Bechtel
Burgundy D–10 Derby
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15”
Current Equipment
Newest Steel

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 27 Dec 2005 4:19 am

David:
What exactly is a " honest sound " ?
I play both lap and pedals, not as well as I once did, but feel that there are no better sounds in the world. Maybe it's my age showing. If you listen to Kayton Roberts on lap steel, or Jerry B, or Roy Wiggins and then turn to Emmons, Chalker, Green, Franklin , Rugg, Hughey they each have their own perspective.Each steel guitar has it's own voice and each picker has a different way of bringing out that voice.When ever I see a great picker sit down behind a guitar I know when they hit the first note that something special is about to happen.They become one with the instrument and bring it to life.
I love my Emmons guitars but if I ever learn to play this ten string E-Harp....look out..lol..

Old Bud

David Ward · Post by **David Ward** » 27 Dec 2005 9:16 am

Bud,

To my ear, the lap steel just seems more emotive than the pedal steel. One of the worst things that you can do to a song is over-produce it and the PSG has a too-slick over-produced quality to me.

It's a personal opinion and probably just reflects the type of music I prefer more than anything else.

David

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 27 Dec 2005 10:30 am

You might as well compare a trumpet to a clarinet. They both make music.

There's no right or wrong. You really don't have to choose. Just pick up whatever guitar speaks to you at any given moment.

The journey to fulfillment will be equally rewarding.

HowardP

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 27 Dec 2005 11:03 am

Actually, I think the analogy would be that it is comparing trumpet to a cornet or a flugelhorn.

Here is how I'm getting around the conundrum. I working on a tune at a time. I've set the goal to learn over the next few years, the few hundred tunes that make up the standard jazz repetroire. I'm giving myself 2 weeks to learn each tune and I'm learning them both on the lap steel and the pedal steel. I'm looking for the unique elements that each instrument brings to the tune.

Over the weekend I rearranged my practice room: I now have a piano set up on one wall, the pedal steel running perpendicular to the right side of the piano and the lap steel perpendicular to the left side. I sit within the box.

I work out the melody, chords, and scales of the tune out on the piano, and then experiment on the lap steel to find the proper voicing for that instrument. Then I move to pedal steel and work it our for that.

I started this week on Round Midnight. So far so good.

Howard Parker · Post by **Howard Parker** » 27 Dec 2005 12:33 pm

Actually, I think the analogy would be that it is comparing trumpet to a cornet or a flugelhorn.

Whatever works for you. I personally view them as separate instruments that often require unique techniques. I do the same thing with 6 and 8 string resonator guitars.

I just don't think you can go wrong any which way you go.

HowardP

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 27 Dec 2005 6:36 pm

Bill Could you explain this condrum thing again. You have lost me. It seems to me that having a pedal steel on one neck and a non pedal on the other neck might provide the best of both worlds.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 27 Dec 2005 7:56 pm

Here is the conundrum.

1.I want to get good playing jazz on steel.

2. I have a limited schedule for practice as I'm busy at work = limited practice time.

3. I love the sound of the Lap Steel.

4. I love the chord possibilities of the Pedal Steel.

5. with limited time, which should I focus on. I go back and forth. This is the conundrum.

You see, if I try and do both, I may not have the time to get good on either.

If I focus on the lap steel, I may be limited in the area of jazz, which is my passion, and calls out for the ability to create full jazz chords

If I focus on Pedal Steel, I have my chords, but I lack the beautiful tone I treasure on the lap.

I play both a 12 string universal pedal and a 12 string lap steel so I would disagree with Howard that they fundementally different instruments - tunings are similar, strings and string width is similar, both are played with a bar, so its not like trumpets and clarinets (ie. as different as brass and reed).

So that is the cunundrum.

My solution has I stated is to work on both, but to focus on one tune at a time on both instruments. That way I will be able to play my entire repretroire on either instrument.
[This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 27 December 2005 at 08:02 PM.]

Andy Zynda · Post by **Andy Zynda** » 27 Dec 2005 8:04 pm

Hey Bill,
I was in a similar pickle, and I just recently made up my mind and sold my Pedal Steel. I progress faster on Lap, I tend to not "overplay" as much (a real problem for me) and I like the sound better.
I miss the huge chords sometimes, but it was the right decision for me.
And, I prefer playing standing up.
-andy-
just another 2 cents.

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 28 Dec 2005 12:47 am

I just recently made up my mind and sold my Pedal Steel. I progress faster on Lap, I tend to not "overplay" as much...

As I have been saying, the AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT is upon us.

Aloha,
Don