Ochesrtral keys

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 20 May 2007 7:01 pm

This is nothing to do with steel guitar and I don't know if I am in the right spot but here goes . My daughter plays alto sax and when she plays {hey good lookin} in what she calls G , to play along with her I have to play in Bb . Now I'm no musician , just mess around on a few instruments so I wonder if someone can shed some light on this . I always thought C was C on a piano a violin or a tuba , apparently not so ?

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 20 May 2007 7:29 pm

http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/transposition.html

Ain't Google wonderful!

This will answer all your questions.

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 21 May 2007 12:18 am

That's all very well Bill but why is C on a piano not C on a trumpet ?

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 21 May 2007 4:17 am

You can buy a trumpet pitched in the key of C. Orchestral players use them a lot.

There was a sax pitched in C also. It was called the "C Melody Sax". Not in use for a long time.

These instruments are pitched in these keys for tonal purposes. Something about the relationship of the key and the sound of the instrument and valve combination works together.

Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 21 May 2007 5:09 am

Different wind instruments have different ranges, based upon the length of the pipe invovled. For learning purposes, the "open" or basic position is usually called "C." It makes reading and learning easier.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 21 May 2007 7:43 am

Brendan, the main reason some instruments are "pitched" in keys other than C is so their players can read music easily. Take the sax family. A sax only has two good octaves, plus a few notes at each end. So to span the whole range of notes you would need in a band or orchestra, they had to make four different size saxes: soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone. But if those instruments all read off the same staff, some of them would have all their notes above or below the staff, where it is difficult to read. Therefore, their written music is transposed to a different key that will have most of the notes on the staff.

There is also another related reason. The number of steps used in the transposition was chosen so that the fingering on the instrument always matches the same written notes. So a written C in Alto music is fingered the same way as a written C in Tenor or Bari music, although neither C is a C according to the "concert C" of the whole band or orchestra. This allows players to switch between instruments without having to learn different fingering.

That still leaves the question of why the keys of Bb and Eb were chosen for horns (meaning the instruments' fingered C is concert Bb or Eb). I have never read this, but I suspect these originally were the keys of C and F, which would make things much easier. Over the centuries the concert pitch of orchestras has crept up about a whole step. Strings easily adjusted by simply tuning the strings up. But the horn manufacturers would have had to completely retool their manufacturering processes, which they never did. That's just a guess, it may be completely bogus.

The C melody sax was made in the '20s and '30s so amateurs could read their parts off piano sheet music. These were amateur quality instruments that gave them a bad rep among pros. There is no reason a pro quality C tenor sax couldn't be made, but as far as I know that has never happened. I don't know about C trumpets - they seem to be pro quality.

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 21 May 2007 9:36 am

A good friend of mine named Brian King Nelson (whom I haven't seen in years...wonder what he's up to...) used to play the heck out of the C melody sax, his sound was really great...of course, that could've been in SPITE of the horn, as opposed to BECAUSE of it...

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 21 May 2007 3:00 pm

Wikipedia has an excellent introductory article on saxophones and their history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone
From Wikipedia

The saxophone was originally patented as two families, each consisting of seven instruments. The "orchestral" family consisted of instruments in the keys of C and F, and the "military band" family in E flat and B flat. Each family consisted of sopranino, soprano, alto, tenor, baritone, bass and contrabass, although some of these were never made; Sax also planned--but never made--a subcontrabass (Bourdon) saxophone.
...
In music written since 1930, only the soprano in B flat, alto in E flat, tenor in B flat and baritone in E flat are in common use.

Here is a cool page I just found with lots of very unusual saxes including the soprillo (an octave above the soprano!) and a straight baritone!
http://www.geocities.com/bourbonstreet/2302/

I have a C melody sax that I gave $20 for. My sax playing friends tell me that I was ripped off.

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 22 May 2007 3:43 am

Thanks for the replys especially Dave D , that does make some sense . At least I'll be able to sleep tonight !!

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 23 May 2007 12:06 am

If you are going to be really picky about it, a Guitar is a transposing instrument too.
Guitar music is normally written on the treble clef, with the third-from-the-bottom space representing the note C that lies on the first fret of the B string.
In orchestral and piano terms, that C should be written on the ledger line below the treble stave.
So a guitar plays an octave lower than written guitar music plays.
I suppose it's to save guitar players from having to learn to read the F clef like 'cello players do.
Cheers
Dave

Bob Blair · Post by **Bob Blair** » 23 May 2007 7:39 am

Great chart Bill - I used to puzzle about that back when I was in junior high school band playing clarinet and various horns.

But I recall that trombone was always scored in the Bass Clef - the memory is really hazy but I also think it was scored in concert pitch, though I note in the chart (which doesn't mention trombone) that Baritone (pretty much the same range as trombone as I recall) is not scored at concert (and that's what I remember from school).

Anybody with more recent trombone experience than mine who knows if my memory is correct on this?