Bar & Bar Owner Sued For Having Band

Mark Edwards · Post by **Mark Edwards** » 10 Apr 2007 2:27 pm

Check this out, walked into a bar yesterday to drum up some business for our band. Was talking to the bar owner and asked if she ever had a band play in her bar. (I did see a stage and a farily nice dance floor) She stated that she used to have bands all the time on the weekends.

That is until she was sued by BMI. That's right the intertainment industry. I couldn't believe my ears when she told me this. I said you got to be kidding me. She said nope. Unless your band sings your own stuff, I can't use ya'll until I get a license. (not a liquor liscense) but a license to have a band. This lady was actually sued for having a band playing other artists cover songs. They even got her for having songs on her juke box, and she had to get a licensed juke box!!!

Now this isn't big city Texas, this is small town Texas, small bar (nice) (as nice as a bar can be) She stated that she has not yet got a license (not sure what kind of license that would be) because of slow business etc... At first I thought she was pulling my chain, maybe not wanting to tell me no, but it checked out. She and the bar and the band all got sued by BMI.

Anyone else hear of this? And what kind of license is she talking about in order to have a band come in and play cover songs of other artists in a bar?

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 10 Apr 2007 2:54 pm

I never liked doing cover tunes to begin with. All a band is doing is promoting another artist's songs when they do covers. I'd just as soon promote my own stuff instead.

JERRY THURMOND · Post by **JERRY THURMOND** » 10 Apr 2007 3:22 pm

We have had the same kind of problems in this area with ASCAP. I had a night club it held 300 people they wanted around $3000 a year, I made a deal an gave them $1200 a year. There is no way to keep from paying them, they will win a judgement in court.That was a few years ago, Now today here is the real problem there is a small cafe that only hold at best 20 people, once a week they have a jam there after closing time, ASCAP is now after them to pay up or else. Another place was holding a jam once a week no booz just soda an snacks, they had to quit because ASCAP went after them. I have always thought ASCAP should get there fair share, but some one need to use some common sense, pretty soon there will be no place to play an ASCAP will be getting nothing.

Jerry

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 10 Apr 2007 5:04 pm

It's like this... a songwriter is entitled to his/her royalties for playing their "creative property." When a song is played on the radio, they get paid. When it's played on a juke box, they get paid. A club pays a licensing fee that covers ALL songs played in that club for the year. ASCAP and BMI distribute the funds collected to their respective writers. It's not a ripoff, it's not a scam... if you sell a band CD at the club, you expect the patron to hand you money in some form for it, right? Or do you just give them away? Same difference...

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 10 Apr 2007 6:06 pm

Michael is right.

This is the way songwritters are paid. If you were a songwriter and your song was getting played, you would want to be paid for it. Its just a part of the business a lot of people are not dialed into.

Radio stations pay a huge fee every year based on the radios stations overall yearly bottom line plus the market size is factored in.

Anyone who playes music in a business is to pay a fee. No matter if its a band or pre-recorded music. No matter if its a bar or a gas station.

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 10 Apr 2007 6:17 pm

Here's a good discussion of this issue from the old forum:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum10/HTML/004004.html

I predict it won't be long before Steel Shows and Jams are shut down by these folks. Even original music isn't safe.

Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 10 Apr 2007 6:24 pm

It all boils down to the dollar bill. Some people will stoop so low to make a dollar and keep someone else from making a dollar. It is so sad to see you have to get a license to sing another song written by another artist.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 10 Apr 2007 6:31 pm

Paul, do you think you'd feel the same way if you were the guy who wrote it, and other people were playing it and making money off it? Of course, it might be flattering for awhile, but financially, would that bother you at all?

John Cisco · Post by **John Cisco** » 10 Apr 2007 7:12 pm

In NYC I witnessed ASCAP agents walk down the street and hit a number of major nightclubs on one of the entertainment strips. Three nights later BMI. No up to date paid decal in the window=immediate lawsuit.

Right? Wrong? I don't know.

I do know that 99% of the original music I have heard is derivitive. Very little is in the 1% of truly inovative music or lyric. So many take the ideas of others before them alter it a bit and procure legal rights to that "property". They do not pay the artist before them who dreamed that idea and made it real. Most of the time there is no mention or credit given. Certainly no finances.

Right? Wrong? I don't know.

I do know that copyrights, patents, trademarks, etc. are an are more important than ever before as a topic that must be watched. You may soon find yourself in a situation where an authority will be telling you "no you can't use that, sing that, paint that, advertise that, say that".

Again be aware that large companies are spanning massive numbers of copyrights and patents and trademarks.......massive numbers.

McDonalds is trying right now to try to trademark the word sandwich. Thats one you now know about. There are millions.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 10 Apr 2007 7:19 pm

quote:

"I predict it won't be long before Steel Shows and Jams are shut down by these folks."

Actually, the hotels and venues these are held in are sure to already be license holders and that covers any event that goes on inside them...

Nicely put, Mikey

Richard Sevigny · Post by **Richard Sevigny** » 10 Apr 2007 7:37 pm

do you think you'd feel the same way if you were the guy who wrote it, and other people were playing it and making money off it?

Except that nowadays, it's the record company that owns the song. Current copyright laws have reduced songwriters to contractors for the big guys. They pay you to write a song which they then own.

It wouldn't surprise me if an artists soon needed a license to sing his own song.

Richard Sevigny · Post by **Richard Sevigny** » 10 Apr 2007 7:48 pm

...just to illustrate how stupid this whole Intellectual Property thing is getting...

Vancouver is hosting the 2010 games. The IOC, through the local Olympic Comittee, has had our provincial government draft legislation whereby it is illegal to use words or phrases from a list of about 175 for monetary gain.

What this has come to mean is that advertisers can't use words like "Friends" or "Inspired by Nature" to name a few without risking copyright infringement.

Oh, wait. The phone is ringing. It's my lawyer.

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 10 Apr 2007 7:51 pm

I wonder if you could give an example? In country music, the labels only have an interest in the artist. Not the touring, management or merch. I can see where a label would be concerned with these issues as they are putting in a lot of money in marketing and promotion. The songs must go through a publishing company and then through someone like BMI or ASCAP. Unless its a small label, the label usually dosen't get involved in the songwriting arena. Some producers who have become label heads have songwriting credits; Mark Wright is one that comes to mind.
Unless a label head ownes a publishing company and placing songs on the artist CD from that publishing company still dosn't qualify because its not connected to the label as part of the label.

Maybe I don't understand the comment, ... after all ... I'm just a guy.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 10 Apr 2007 8:03 pm

Mikey D., amen to you. Thanks for understanding. There's too much ignorance surrounding this contentious issue, and your post will hopefully clarify the matter.

It's bad enough with internet downloading. People email me regularly, asking where they can download my songs.

it's nice to know somebody is policing the use of songwriter's works out there in public places, even if they are taking a cut. Do you think the club would get away without paying the plumber, electrician, roofer, etc.?

That club got sued because it refused to pay the nominal annual fee to have music (that they do not own) in their establishment.

Signed, a working songwriter.

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 10 Apr 2007 9:17 pm

ASCAP, BMI, ans SEESAC don't have any common sense at all. The bands that play on weekends in the small clubs are what keeps the song alive longer and consequently keep the song on the market longer. Back in the 40's 50's and 60's a song would stay on the charts for weeks and months, because the song was kept alive in the small clubs. This also gave it radio and juke box play longer. Look at it this way, it takes a minimum of $200.00 a day expenses to keep a man and car on the road checking the clubs. That is $6000.00 a month for expenses. I am sure the salary is around 40 to 50000 per year. that is a total of $112000 a year. There is no way this road man is going to generate a profit for the writers. It is a matter of power, greed, and stupidity. And by the way, I am a BMI writer and I have let them know how I feel about their road men. Jody.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 10 Apr 2007 9:19 pm

Quote:

"Except that nowadays, it's the record company that owns the song. Current copyright laws have reduced songwriters to contractors for the big guys. They pay you to write a song which they then own."

ASCAP and BMI work for the songwriters and publishers, not the record labels (although there are some label owned publishers)... You are describing something that went on a long time ago--seldom, if ever, does anyone give up the ownership of their songs to the label these days...

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 10 Apr 2007 9:30 pm

Well, there are several levels of being a songwriter. You can belong to BMI or other but do you have a song published? Then, is the song cut? Anyone can belong to BMI or ASCAP without a song being cut, but where the money kicks in is when the song is published, cut and on an album/CD.

Anyone who has a song cut and getting played would never buck the system. its the way songwriters are paid.

I'm with BMI and I have a song (one song) published with a decent publishing company in Nashville but its not cut and it may never be cut but if it does get cut, I would want to get paid from the air play or performance from jukebox, live music or whever it gets played. Just getting a song published its a giant leap. I would think you would want to be paid too. Otherwise you just give it away.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 10 Apr 2007 11:36 pm

ASCAP and BMI do have the right to demand payment, but things need to be kept in perspective. If a musician is making $50 a night, he or she can't be expected to pay out $35 or $40 of it.

That's exactly what happened during the Urban Cowboy fad. Ascap demanded so much money from us for playing Looking For Love that we would have wound up playing for free if we paid. We ended up not playing the song instead.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 11 Apr 2007 12:25 am

It wouldn't surprise me if an artists soon needed a license to sing his own song.

Around the time of that "Center Field" song, the legal owners of the Creedence Clearwater Revival copyrights sued John Fogerty for writing and singing his own, new material - they claimed it sounded too much like Creedence and it was hurting their income.

Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be songwriters.....

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Apr 2007 1:51 am

For certain artists need to be paid, no argument.

But considering that if I sell my own CD , I am selling it at one or two placeas a month so the logistics of me making any $$ is very low. And yes, I want them to hand over the money like MD said.

But there is another side to this, and if I was a national artist this is the side I would take.

I want my music played, in as many clubs across the nation by as many bands, good , bad or whatever as possible.

The ASCAP/BMI street walkers are like THUGS with 44's. They should be more Salesmen rather than executioners.

They should be saying, "We want to assit you in finding a way to make it work, we want the clubs to play Music , but we can't do it for free "...

Instead they are strong arming into NO MUSIC at all.

How is that effective ?

Sounds like the old Truck Drivers Unions, " You can deliver you products to market on OUR trucks only , if not we will destroy your products"...

It makes no logical sense to shut down clubs for playing tunes, find a way to make it happen.

Small clubs who cannot afford $3000 / year may be the problem, perhaps they need someone in charge that actually can see the big picture and find a way to happy solution.

Why ? Easy, because if they don't collect ANY money for the artists going forward by rethinking how they can do it, they have exactly what they have now..

Nothing.

Wheres the benefit to that ?

Oh, the ASCAP street rep still gets paid though...

The Artist still gets nothing..

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 11 Apr 2007 2:56 am

Suppose you wrote a song that was performed at a Steel Show, and posted on YouTube, with the player permission?

Millions can access it. Should you be paid? Probably.

Goodbye YouTube, just like it's goodbye to the small venues.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 11 Apr 2007 3:09 am

$3,000 a year is $57 a week to have live music in your venue. If you make more money than an extra $57 a week because you have a live band than it is a good deal. If you don't make more money as a result of having a band, than it is not a good deal and you shouldn't be having a band there in the first place.

None of this should come as any surprise to a bar or restaurant owner. It is the cost of doing business and should be treated as such. To open a bar, and have a band and not be aware of the legal and business issues surrounding that decision means that you are not a good businessman and probably have no reason opening a bar in the first place. Besides ASCAP, I'm sure there are other issues including zoning issues, cabaret licenses. In new york, bars are banned from allowing dancing. If you are unaware of that and you let people dance, you are going to get shut down.

I heard a radio program that stated that many lottery winners open up bars and restaurants which inevitably fail because they don't know the first thing about running a bar. Don't blame ascap or BMI for the moronic business sense of the bar owners. If you are going to open a bar with music, how about learning what that means before doing it.

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 11 Apr 2007 3:23 am

Tony Prior wrote:For certain artists need to be paid, no argument.

Oh, the ASCAP street rep still gets paid though...

The Artist still gets nothing..

This is not about the artist. This is about the writer. If the artist wrote it, he/she gets paid. Artists get paid for their performance at the venue.

Bob Smith · Post by **Bob Smith** » 11 Apr 2007 3:23 am

Do all the township and local county ,summertime concerts, need these "cover tune permits" too? Or is the law just for buisness owners ? I ask , because you can still smoke cigs, in the casinos in AC, but you cant in a NJ bar- club.( thank God). So , my question is, Is Uncle Sam and his state decendents, excempt from these ASCAP fees? bob

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Apr 2007 3:37 am

I think all public venues should pay the DUES..some dues..

I used $3000 as an example from above..

I don't know if it is accurate or not...

My thought process is that someone who represents ASCAP should do it in a POSITIVE manner.

Find a way to make it happen....

One shoe does not fit all..

Many clubs and businesses are being faced with local tax and fee issues to the hilt..just to open the door and turn the lights on...Maybe the $57 is the straw that breaks the Camels back...

A local Recreations Park has an outdoor music show with a local teenage band..twice a year..

How much should they pay ?

I am thinking of starting a once a month Country Music Family night at a local venue, what should the fee be ? $3000 / year ? thats now $250 for each event..IF the band plays 40 songs, thats $6.25 per song.

I don't mind paying something, but not $6.25/song...

Let the event fit the fee..thats what I am saying...

IF a 4 piece band plays for $50/ man , ASCAP would get paid more than the band playing the music at this event!

A Band plays and gets paid by the DOOR..let ASCAP play by the same rules...let them have a piece of the Door at small venues ...maybe it will be more than $57...

Find a way to make it positive is all I am saying..

By the way, as a side note, I write and produce a few Steel Guitar TAB/CD Instruction projects of which many here are familar with, and I am very grateful for the support.

I PAY all of the Licensing Fees up front on each track that I do, so I fully understand the value of being legal and using someone elses Music. Before unit #1 is sold and mailed, I have the appropriate licensing in my hands.

I am a proponent of LEGAL.

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