Why not Keyless?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 May 2006 6:42 am

Yes, it seems like Buddy would have a bit of knowledge about tone. Joe Wright's not exactly a slouch.

And I think Gene Fields probably has decent enough qualifications.

Those, versus a former part-time writer's personal opinions have me wondering if any of the keyless guys can make an 8-string 9/2?

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 2 May 2006 6:45 am

Jim S...did you get the file that I sent you? If yes, you can see the problem re posting, or even sending this type of information = long download time, plus how to talk about it.

There were 20 shots taken per instrument, and 32 instruments, just to categorize the instruments, then the real work begins.

Photos of the pickup/changer end, the tuner end, and the underside were also taken (scaled).

Physical dimensions and materials used were taken for body, skirts, end plates, neck blocks, scale length, finger radii, nut to tuner lengths, neck to string spacing, string spacing, etc.

Pickup data includes distance to magnets, magnet configuration, return pole info, winding resistance, maker where known, and more.

FSA data for all was for the open strings strummed with a thumb pick at fret 12...this to answer questions like:

1. Do all Sho Buds, Emmons, MSAs look the same under these simple conditions? The answer is that some of the same don't look like each other, some different ones do look like each other.

2. Any great difference between keyed and keyless seen? Answer is that there is more difference between instruments of similar construction than because of keyed or keyless configuration.

3. What is the Spectral (harmonic content) change vs. time (0,2,4,8 seconds) = open string "sustain".

Some further evaluation was done on specific instruments re:

1. Spectrum for string excitation at the 24th, and 36th frets.

2. For single string excitation.

3. For finger harmonics at various frets.

4. For bar placement at various frets...finger damped and not.

5. The effect of volume pedal (500k pot, and Good' light, on the spectral response (the amplifier was left out (unplugged).

6. Pitch shift vs. temperature.

7. Pitch shift of string 4 (E) for slacking the other strings to zero one at a time = "cabinet drop", body flex, axle bend, et al.

8. Pickup physical resonance, strings damped and undamped.

9. body resonance, strings damped and undamped.

Did NOT:

1. Pay attention to new vs. old strings.

2. Pay attention to stainles vs. nickle.

3. Pay attention to string brands, gauges, etc.

Those, and other such variables are left for AFTER the "long term basics", and specific instrument types are selected for further testing.

And a bunch of other "stuff".

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 2 May 2006 6:52 am

From this old Forum topic:

I prefer the keyless sound. Jeff Newman had a great sounding Kline keyless S-12 he used during seminars he and I held. We had just finished playing a phrase for the class and while they were absorbing it, Jeff smiled and leaned over and said, “Why does my guitar sound better than yours?” His Kline did have a cleaner sound but I wasn’t about to admit it so I replied, “Because you have a tin ear.” His face flushed and all he could do was force a chuckle. It was one of the few times I ever saw Jeff at a loss for words.

Two other great recording artists who prefer keyless are Tom Brumley and BJ Cole.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 2 May 2006 7:38 am

"So I put The Steel away, and began using the Kline. It played better, sounded better, and was a bit lighter to carry.

I really like it" Winnie Winston

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 May 2006 7:45 am

"Answer is that there is more difference between instruments of similar construction than because of keyed or keyless configuration."

That would seem to coincide with various studies of six-string guitars done over the years. Subjective opinions asde, there have usually been more differences between Les Pauls and other Les Pauls...or Teles and other Teles...than differences between glued-in and bolt-on neck designs (the great guitar debate).

it all boils down to personal preference in the long run.

In other words, some people can see the monkeys flying out of Kevin's butt, and some can't. They are both right, and both wrong.

To me - keyless designs seem to have certain size and stability advantages that make them attractive. I won't end up with one because of my preference for old Fenders (unique tone and string spacing being essential issues) , though.

Jimmy Lewis · Post by **Jimmy Lewis** » 2 May 2006 8:08 am

Kevin I SUPPOSE you play in living rooms and nursing homes since you know so much about them . Also there other brands of steels out there besides Sho Bud. Any guitar that was made within the past 30 years is a good instrument wheather YOU like it or not.

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 2 May 2006 8:23 am

Add to my previous rant:

The interaction between the string length from nut to tuner with the string(s) open or barred may be seen/captured by picking the string between the nut and tuner and profiling the pickup output.

RE the BE/SIERRA/KEYLESS photo...BE, Jimmy Day, Herby Wallace, Gene O'Neil, Bill Stafford, played this generation SIERRA, and BE followed SIERRA into the SESSION Series instruments, in the design of which it seems that he had a hand in.

When BE came on board, JD is said to have said "well, I guess that they don't need me now", and switched to Mullen (if I remember rightly).

Now to illustrate the "traditionalist" instinct in the keyless crowd...why stop at just keyless, why not keyless integrated into/onto the changer? Why not the tuner/changer (motion) moved to the players left? Why not the longer scale length approach using the standard body?

In a post back when, BE said something like "looks like you may have something there ED" in response to my post re the BEAST. Not sure which feature he was referring to...care to comment if you read this Buddy.

Paradise for me would have been to grow up in the same block as Les Paul, Buddy Emmons, Leo Fender, Elmer Stromberg, etc. (because of innovation).

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 2 May 2006 9:40 am

Kevin Hatton writes:
"Jim, my opinion is partly based on being a staff writer for Steel Guitar World Magazine for eight years and being educated from the ground up by some of the master players and builders who created the pedal steel guitar. I love you too."

Kevin, Your professionalism really shines through in this thread!
How do you spell EMBARRASMENT?
I truly hope everything is O.K. with you.
Pete B.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 2 May 2006 9:57 am

Nothing wrong with the old "each-to-his-own."

Though a little restraint and decorum can be a good thing, that's for sure.

I'm new to pedals-found an outstanding deal on a GFI Ultra S-10 Keyless in early March.

I have been a fan of pedal steel forever, though, and I have done my share of drooling over the photos of some of the gorgeous Sho-Bud restorations here on the Forum.

I went the keyless route because the S-10 is a single, but for the same price I could have had an SD-10 with keys. The advice I received from three different people was to not buy the pad guitar with the double frame, it would be easier to learn without the pad there-that folks that have played doubles already for a number of years and are used to reaching across the C6 neck to get at the E9 are more adept at playing a double frame guitar.

So I went with the keyless, because of the deal-along with the reputation of GFI.

Knowing Gene Field's history in the music instrument business, and his working along side Leo Fender for what I believe was 23 years, and his tour at Sierra, etc., pretty much convinced me that to get off to a good start on the instrument, his keyless guitar could become my best buddy!

This thing is hard enough to play as it is, and the keyless GFI is no doubt keeping the pain factor at the minimum.

------------------
Mark

Steve Alcott · Post by **Steve Alcott** » 2 May 2006 10:10 am

Why not just buy the instrument that makes the sound you want to hear and practise instead of arguing?

Jimmy Lewis · Post by **Jimmy Lewis** » 2 May 2006 10:16 am

AMEN!!!

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 2 May 2006 11:40 am

My intent, when I started this thread was just to get some thoughts on keyless. As noted many feel one way or the other on the subject but I wanted some more insight on technically "why not keyless".

We could do without the bikering but that just comes with the territory when you start a post. Just overlook that and try to get to the "meat" of the subject.

I'm not in the market for a new steel (I've got one of the most highly regarded on the market) but if I were, from what I knew beforehand and from some of the comments here a new steel would be a keyless (and a keyless GFI would be on the "short list").

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 2 May 2006 11:46 am

I love keyed guitars thus I own a carter d10 know I have heard keyless guitars played and they sound fine I do like the ease of replacing srings, but that is MHO it is a preferance thing keyless guitars can sound good, now is it worth getting upset over I don't think so

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 2 May 2006 12:59 pm

Why not just buy the instrument that makes the sound you want to hear and practise instead of arguing?

A pro can make just about any guitar get "his sound"

The problem is that not every guitar is created equal.

And we are talking about the pros and cons of keyed versus keyless.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 2 May 2006 1:22 pm

It's only a matter of personal preference, so; I'm sure my opinion won't effect matters in any way at all! And here's my experience with both Keyed & Keyless PSG's. I've always played Keyed guitars, but; in y2k, I decided to try a Keyless PSG, just because it was something different for me, and I'd been wanting to try one ever since their introduction to the music scene! So, I sold my Keyed-Guitar [mistake #1] and ordered a brand new Keyless-Guitar. [mistake #2] When my new Keyless PSG arrived I played on it at home for several weeks and did the usual tweaking necessary with new, out-of-the-box items! Then I had my first occassion to play in public with my new instrument! [mistake #3] Therefore, I guess; needless to say, the very next morning I was on the doorstep of my long time friend and builder of my (2) previous ‘Keyed’ PSG's, with money in hand, and tail between my legs and placed my order for another new Keyed PSG! So, I guess you can figure out what I think of Keyless! If you wonder what I didn't like, I guess you'll have to just try one and give it an in-depth trial~run.!
------------------
“Big John”
a.k.a. {Keoni Nui}
Current Equipment
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 02 May 2006 at 02:26 PM.]

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 2 May 2006 1:29 pm

"If you wonder what I didn't like, I guess you'll have to just try one and give it an in-depth trial~run.!"

I don't understand the point of your post, John, if you aren't going to wrap it up with WHY you don't like keyless guitars.

I thought one of the main ideas of the Forum is to share information, hopefully for the betterment of the steel guitar community.

"I'm sure my opinion won't effect matters in any way at all!"

You are a veteran picker-I would like to hear your opinion.

------------------
Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 02 May 2006 at 02:33 PM.]

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 2 May 2006 4:20 pm

It's been quiet on this subject for a little while. Now that everyone has calmed down. About the keyless verses keyed. Why not ask Wayne? I'm sure he will have the remedy to all of this.

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 2 May 2006 4:51 pm

Jack, to answer your question more directly, if I had to buy from the current selection of keyless guitars, I would opt for a Williams or Excel. I feel that these guitars offers a more customizable experience at a better price.

That is not to say that a Sierra, or GFI, or Lamar, or whoever else builds keyless guitars, does not offer a great product, one of each would be great. I have only owned Kline keyless guitars and some other brands of keyed guitars. Who has owned several different brands of keyless guitars and can compare and contrast from experience?

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 2 May 2006 4:53 pm

Why not just buy the instrument that makes the sound you want to hear and practise instead of arguing?"

What are ya tryin to do Steve? Put the Forum out of business??

Didn't Jerry Garcia play a keyed Steel Guitar?
What about Robert R?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 May 2006 6:48 pm

John - as someone else asked, exactly what was wrong on the bandstand that you didn't notice at home? And was one bandstand run was really enough to convince you?

I've had my favorite rig sound like absolute junk in some settings - which is why when I was playing guitar I always carried a minimum of two, usually 3 amps and always 2 guitars. Nothing on the planet sounds good in every room, or cuts through the mix in every situation.

I sure would have gone for more than one gig before bailing out - and if it truly WAS the guitar, I think the problem(s) would have been apparent before ever playing a gig.

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 2 May 2006 9:06 pm

I personally don't care for KEYLESS guitars. But it's like anything else...Some guys don't like Emmons & Sho-Buds. To each his own!

Henry Nagle · Post by **Henry Nagle** » 2 May 2006 10:59 pm

I played a Kline for over a year and I rarely had to tune it. I don't remember having to adjust the stops hardly at all. It played great. It sounded very good. sometimes great. Like Jim said: The same instrument will not please every situation.

I like the tone of my ZB better, but that's not fair because no other guitar on the planet sounds as good as a ZB.

Didn't Zane Beck go keyless with BMI?

By the way, do most keyless guitars compare to Klines in tuning stability? The workmanship on those guitars is definitely first class.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 3 May 2006 2:17 am

Jon, there would be others on my "short list" if I were out to buy a new guitar, and again I'm not. I mentioned the GFI since it's available as a "keyless" model.

One you mention that wouldn't be on my list is the Excel. Primarily because I don't like the sound of the Excel and I don't like the pull rod "reverse" threaded arrangement. I know two people with Excel's (one is a keyed D-10 and the other is a keyless U12) and both have had problems with the rods and the threaded inserts that are on the rod pullers and with the nylon "tuners" coming loose on the rods. I do like their changer, tho.

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 3 May 2006 4:59 am

I've been thinking about putting a keyless system on my ZB "project" guitar that is in pieces right now. Wouldn't that be somethin'!

DZ

Gary Spaeth · Post by **Gary Spaeth** » 3 May 2006 5:22 am

i have a fender 1000 that the tuning pans were stripped from that i thought of putting keyless tuners on. anybody have tech drawings of how to build them?