Why not Keyless?

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 17 May 2006 12:23 pm

Curt,

The only fact proven within this thread about any advantage of the keyless over the keyed guitar is that you don't listen to those who also own keyless guitars.

All of your posted facts about the tuning hysteresis and breaking string advantage has been refuted by other gearless owners.

Your not listening to your keyless comrades and can't hear the hysteresis happening within your own guitar. That seems to be the only fact I've seen within this thread. Count that as a blessing.

Paul

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 17 May 2006 12:49 pm

Paul,

Oh, now come on. Thats a little much. Of course I have been listening to "my comrades" I just happen to not have any hysteresis on my guitar. I also do not break strings. AND, of course I change them before they go flat.

My opinion is that hysteresis is not a problem on most keyless guitars. I also believe that the longer the keyhead, the more prone you are to having hysteresis. Simple.

I am not a bad guy for observing these traits. Opinionated maybe!

[This message was edited by Curt Langston on 23 May 2006 at 08:04 AM.] edited for spelling. I don't plan on winning any spelling contests![This message was edited by Curt Langston on 23 May 2006 at 08:05 AM.]

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 17 May 2006 1:29 pm

Curt,
To make this perfectly clear, I believe your a good guy, so am I.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 17 May 2006 1:54 pm

Here is Sierra's official statement on hysteresis and keyless technology:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>gearless tuner features

New technology fulfills the 30 year dream of tone plus sustain. Remember the old beautiful rich tone and everlasting sustain of the long-scale steel guitars? Due to excessive string breakage, scale lengths had to be shortened when pedals were added to steel guitars. Even though this also reduced sus- tain and tone quality, it was necessary to keep the strings on the guitar. Sierra's advanced engineering and manufacturing quality of the 'Gearless Tuner' allows a 25-inch scale with shorter string length than a keyed or geared guitar with a 24 inch scale. This, united with Sierra's super-strong body construction, makes the 30-year dream of tone plus sustain a reality! Sierra's Gearless Tuner gives the benefits of 'keyless' design that has been written about for years. Yet the Sierra design is tuned 'on top' of the instru- ment with finger-knob adjustment. The finger knob adjusting screws raise or lower the string tension through a precision lever, giving a micrometer fine adjustment. Machine head backlash is eliminated and the historical string stretch problem behind the roller nut is cured. Extensive testing proved string hysteresis theories true. Sierra's gearless tuner solved this problem. Actual laboratory tests with a strobe tuner proved that even the historically troublesome strings (4 &

, with both raise and lower functions, would return to true pitch with zero flat/sharp troubles. The design also allows for a shorter guitar body. Gearless models are all 31'/2 inches long. 5 inches shorter than a 'standard' 14 string guitar Of course, this means less weight!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the case with my guitar. I can't speak for all keyless, but I can speak for Sierra and GFI.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 17 May 2006 2:19 pm

It's hard to imagine 1" making that much difference - don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it doesn't, but it is hard to fathom (by the way: that guitar I mentioned earlier that had the way-old strings was a Sierra with a 25" scale; remember, I'm not knocking Sierras, as I can't say what the tone is like with new strings - might be great for all I know)

I've noticed that slightly heavier strings prolong string life too; a .012 on the G# for example will go a long time on an old Sho-Bud like mine (best Sho-Bud gauges are on the Ricky Davis signature Jagwire sets I've found)

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 17 May 2006 2:19 pm

My "batch" of 14 string PST SIERRA Session series instruments (Gearless with 25" scale) are on the 31.5" body.

The BEAST is 14 strings, 29.730" scale, 31.5" total string length, gearless (but different) tuner built into the changer, on a 35.5" body. No string yanker required, no sharp bends for the strings, fastest string change going, and probably the best ratio of played to stretched string length (less hysteresis to the degree that string overhang is the source of the problem); there are other possible sources.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 17 May 2006 2:27 pm

I bet the Beast has sustain and tone for days!

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 17 May 2006 2:29 pm

Where can we see a picture of this Beast?

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 17 May 2006 2:31 pm

http://sierrasteels.com/pages/pst/index.html

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 17 May 2006 2:37 pm

Hmm... I'd like to see a triple-neck version of that with 14 pedals and 22 knees.

Sorry - starting to digress.
Anway, I honestly am wondering how the return-to-tune comparison is between a keyed and keyless on the #8 pedal, 10th string of the C6th - feedback?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 May 2006 2:43 pm

Duane - I see about 5 cents over-return on the boo-wah pedal on my bottom string. This is on a keyless Williams D-12 crossover. When I tap "P5" (actually P2 on the crossover guitar) the low C returns to the tuned pitch.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6) My Blog

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 17 May 2006 2:53 pm

Duane....here is a Forum source thanks to Per Berner.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/009502.html

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 19 May 2006 5:04 am

Ed, I could not see any compensators on the Beast! Did you not have a need for them?

I could tell by just looking at it, that there would be no hysteresis!

Excellent design.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 19 May 2006 6:54 am

The Beast is the best.

Can anyone describe a tuning compensator or direct me to a drawing/picture?

ed packard · Post by **ed packard** » 19 May 2006 7:06 am

Curt...the only compensators on the BEAST are associated withraising strings two halftones with one change while simultaneously lowering them one halftone with another....half tone up is a different string excursion amount than a halftone down.

Charlie...It may not be best, but it ani't bad, and it's all mine!

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 19 May 2006 10:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My opinion is that hysteresis is very minimal on most keyless guitars. Much less than a keyed. I also believe that the longer the keyhead, the more prone you are to having hysteresis. Simple.

I am not a bad guy for observing these traits. Opinionated maybe!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only are you "Not" a bad guy Curt...but my lad..you are also 100% correct....i admire your throughness, and i for one am going to say thank you. Your reasoning, is why i play a superior concept ie: "Keyless"..
And i want to thank you for taking part in these threads. You stand up for what we have been saying for years, and is just now starting to get the attention it deserves. It just takes some, longer to catch on then others...But these posts have shown me, that more guys are playing keyless then i thought.
And others are starting to show a genuine interest in a different, and better concept.
Curt there will always, always be those that will never change no matter what has been shown to them. They are not the players that will create change, and improvement. They are the ones that will play what is sold them. Some players like yourself Curt. Will stride to play a more advanced, accurate steel guitar. While some are happy to play historic ones. To each there own i guess. And both have their enduring qualities. But my preference has always been with those that can develop new idea's and improve on old ones. I have really enjoyed this conversation about the instrument i love The Pedal Steel Guitar. But in particular, those that realize the advantages to a superior built keyless steel guitar. Like the Excel, or Williams, Sierra,or Whitney, or GFI. These companies build these instruments, because they to, believe in them.

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Whitney Single 12 8FL & 5 KN,keyless, dual changers Extended C6th, Webb Amp, Line6 PodXT, Goodrich Curly Chalker Volume Pedal, Match Bro, BJS Bar, Boyette Glass Bar, Carvin Guitars, & Amplification, and other neat stuff, and a 165 Pound Great Pyrenees..
I was keyless, when keyless wasn't cool...

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 20 May 2006 4:18 am

George,

Do you believe the same about the Steinberger and various keyless guitars?

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 20 May 2006 at 05:34 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 20 May 2006 at 06:20 AM.]

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 20 May 2006 5:22 am

George, I think your last post may be one of the most condescending I've read in a long time. Having said that, this has been a pretty interesting and informative debate.

Respectfully,
dBurr

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 20 May 2006 8:19 am

Thank You for the question Mr Franklin. Unfortunitly, i am not that familiar with the instrument you have mentioned. And i suggest you ask someone who is familiar with this guitar, and has played it. I have pretty much made my thoughts known on the subject of keyless, and have learned a lot from those that have posted, including yourself. So for me to further continue beating this thing to death is rather redundant at this point. And i would rather the discussion stay within the realms of keyed, or keyless {Steel Guitar} concepts. But let me just say thank you again Mr Franklin, for joining our discussion here. Your insight has been invaluable. And new players that join the forum here in the future, will also be thankful that you took the time out of your schedule, to give your expertise, and thoughts of years of playing to us. You have my utmost respect, and again thank you for letting me participate. I look forward to many more years of great playing from you Paul. God Bless

Tom Quinn · Post by **Tom Quinn** » 22 May 2006 5:03 pm

Steinberger guitars are made of graphite and plastic. They sound terrible straight into an amp, but work as decent "tools" for those who color their tone with effects.

Personally, I always thought a good Lester, Tele or Strat into an AC-30 or a TR, SR, 4X10 Bassman ought to get it done. Has for me.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 22 May 2006 7:05 pm

So far, all my steels are keyed, but I'm not, per se, against the keyless design - I don't have a dog in this hunt. I can see the advantage to reducing tuning hysteresis - one of the main reasons keyless and locking systems were also implemented on 6-string guitars. But I can also see Paul's point about not having enough room for compensators for other purposes on a loaded up guitar.

With that said, I have played several keyless guitars - Steinberger, Hohner, Erlewine Lazer, and so on. They had, IMO, a "neutral" sound, as compared to a keyed guitar. This has both advantages and disadvantages, to my ears. I found that at lower volumes with a clean amp setting, the sound was a bit lifeless, but when really playing loud and distorted, that relative deadness in harmonic overtones had advantages. Sometimes that extra harmonic content be too much in that situation. But at clean settings at lower volumes, I missed certain overtones that come through on, let's say, a Tele, Les Paul, or Gretsch.

Similarly, locking nuts on guitars have a similar function. Once the nut is locked, it's possible to slack the strings above the nut without really changing anything. Again, my observation having played many and having owned some is that I find something missing tonally. This type of guitar is primarily favored by metal-oriented guitar players who play loud and distorted. Again, I can see the advantages there - but not for my style. I love the sound of a archtop Gretsch with a Bigsby vibrato - talk about a tuning nightmare, lack of sustain, and so on - but it imparts something special to the sound. On the other hand, Johnny Winter makes good use of the Erlewine Lazer, and then switches to his old neck-through with the most-exaagerated-headstock-in-the-world Firebird for slide. These two worlds can coexist.

Now, I agree that a keyless or locking-nut guitar is different than a keyless steel, but it does not surprise me that some people prefer the sound of keyed while others prefer the sound of keyless. There's just no point in arguing this, IMO - De gustibus non disputandum.

On tuning hysteresis - sure, the compensator solution is certainly more complex, but it can be used to correct not only hysteresis but other tuning issues - I just don't see how that's "backwards" thinking or an "inferior" approach. Paul, b0b, and John Fabian clearly explained the relevance to correcting JI tuning problems in different keys - this makes total sense to me - thanks. That is a really important issue, IMO.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 May 2006 7:50 pm

Well, this has all been pretty interesting, and mostly civil, although there have been more adamant opinions than proven facts. But let me take a shot at clearing up some apparent confusion. I believe Ed P. would agree with me that there are only three variables for a given pitch: string gauge, tension, and neck length (between nut and bridge or changer). The length of string behind the nut has no effect on any of these three variables. Whether the length behind the nut is 1" or 6", for a given pitch, gauge and neck length, the tension will be the same between the nut and changer, and likewise the tension will be the same behind the nut as in front of it. Having different string lengths behind the nut should not affect string tension in any way, either for the open pitch, the raised pitch or the lowered pitch.

But the length behind the nut does affect changer/pedal throw. With a longer string length behind the nut, the changer/pedal throw needed to reach the new tension for a raise will be the stretch of the string in front of the nut, plus the stretch behind the nut. Thus, greater string length behind the nut increases changer/pedal throw slightly. If overshoot on return to pitch is a result not of mechanical problems, but of inherent characteristics of the string metal, then the extra length behind the nut will increase that problem. Apparently compensators can fix that problem, but with extra machinery and cost.

Now, if there is a certain ideal string length behind the nut for desirable overtones, as a couple of people above pointed out, it would be possible to position a keyless head at that desirable length. Furthermore, since all the strings have the same nut to changer length, and the desired length behind the nut is related to that length, having approximately the same behind-the-nut length for all strings would seem to be better than the varying lengths of the typical keyed head. That ideal behind-the-nut length would result in some overshoot that might require compensators. But the desirable overtone characteristics would be obtained even with a keyless head. Such a design might be superior to all present keyed and keyless designs.

Thus the "hysteresis" differences between current keyed and keyless models is simply an artefact of the very short behind-the-nut length keyless manufacturers have chosen. For that matter it would be possible (but not simple) to build a keyed model with identical short behind-the-nut lengths. So the whole hysteresis problem has to do with behind-the-nut length, and is independent of whether the head is keyed or keyless.

Now that we have sorted out that neither the hysteresis problem nor the desirable overtones are wed to either keyed or keyless heads, the real advantage of keyless heads that intrigues me is the precision fine tuning with no gear slack or backlash. If someone would back the keyless head off to the desirable behind-the-neck distance (whatever that might be), I would seriously consider a keyless head just to get the precision tuning.

One other thing to consider is the relationship of neck length to string gauge. It is well established in keyboard instruments that, for a given pitch, a longer thinner string has more sustain and richer overtones than a shorter thicker string. That is why 9' concert grands sound better than shorter baby grands and uprights. The same is true in guitars. Going to a longer neck does not have to require greater tension. One could get the same pitch and same tension with a thinner string, and thereby gain the tonal advantages of the thinner string. I would have thought that is the point of having a longer neck. If you want a longer neck to get more tension for a given pitch, then the same increased tension could be gotten with a shorter neck and heavier gauge strings. There is an ideal tension for a given pitch. Getting that ideal tension with a thinner string is what I would think is the point of having a longer neck, not to get higher tension. If you want more tension, just use heavier gauge strings. I use an 0.012 for my high G# string, because it gives me a thicker sound that I think balances better with the other strings. If I had a longer neck, I would use a thinner G#, but also thinner strings for all the pitches, to maintain the balance, and to get better tone. But there may be a practical limit to how thin the G# string can be, regardless of neck length. This whole problem has to do with neck length between the nut and changer - I don't see how string length behind the changer has anything to do with it.

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Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 23 May 2006 3:40 am

David,

I've enjoyed your posts. There is "NO" cost added to the price of the guitar. We look at it as another pull added to the pedal/lever.

Paul

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 23 May 2006 4:07 am

David,
There is a difference in tone between the longer keyhead and a shorter keyhead, and there is a difference in tone of either of those when, the keyhead is lowered in dimension from the roller nut like the Fenders did. The Emmons keyhead design is considered by many players/builders as the industry standard becuase it helps to provide the type of tone and string attack or response that many consider to be the vintage benchmark. For every slight variation away from those original keyhead dimensions and its overall design, the attack of the note and warmth of the overall tone changes. Tonality gets real deep with keyhead design, along with every other physical and mechanical design of the guitar. The type of metal used, whether or not the keyhead is one solid piece, whether it butts up to the neck but not fastened to, or is an extension of the neck, or is fastened to the neck, and then how they all are fastened to the cabinet affects the tone of that instrument.

To all,

About an assumption of price. As far as I am aware, NO manufacturer charges for compensators. Its a single rod, spring, a couple of rubber o-rings and a nylon tuner. The same as having an extra pull on the pedal. The pedal cost remains the same.

Paul
[This message was edited by Franklin on 23 May 2006 at 05:19 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 23 May 2006 at 05:36 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 23 May 2006 at 05:40 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 23 May 2006 at 05:45 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 23 May 2006 at 05:46 AM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 23 May 2006 at 05:48 AM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 23 May 2006 4:48 am

Some players like yourself Curt. Will stride to play a more advanced, accurate steel guitar. While some are happy to play historic ones. To each there own i guess. And both have their enduring qualities. But my preference has always been with those that can develop new idea's and improve on old ones.

Sure, but what kind of (guitar, amp, pick, cable, etc.) you own has very little to do with your musicianship IMHO. If owning the right gear made for great players, there'd be a lot of virtuoso collectors!

Isn't music the end game?