Mode Names

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 27 Nov 2005 2:35 pm

John,
Did you know that Duke Ellington was Canadian? What he actually wrote was "Take the Train, Eh?"

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"Elmore James kept playing the same licks over and over, but I get the feeling he meant it." Frank Zappa

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 27 Nov 2005 2:47 pm

It appears that modes can be very maddening.

I think I'll leave them alone for now.

EJL

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 27 Nov 2005 2:58 pm

It's interesting to look at the linguistic origins of the terms for scales.

Scale--derives from association with Christianity and fish

Natural Minor Scale--ancient form of children's music

Balkan--from "Take Me Out To the Ball Game"

Dorian--from the music played during the sinking of the Andria Doria.

Lydian--from John Prine's "Donald and Lydia"

Mixolydian--from tunes heard by medieval bartenders

Aeolian--from the three models of National metal-bodied guitars, duolian, triolian, and aeolian

Ionian--from music celebrating the ownership of an aeolian

Locrian--from Steve Vai because it's so lucrative

Phrygian--ancient spelling that describes intolerable music, now modernized in such terms as "friggin rap music." Major phrygian derives from a military term for taps played by an officer.

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"Elmore James kept playing the same licks over and over, but I get the feeling he meant it." Frank Zappa

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 27 Nov 2005 4:24 pm

Darryl- A side note . My father and mother where on the Andria Doria the night of the collision(7/25/56) thay where saver. Joe

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 27 Nov 2005 6:05 pm

Joe,

I won't kid around about things like that again.

Does "Miraglia" mean miracle?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Nov 2005 7:15 pm

John S., my question is serious. I know I use the pentatonic blues scale when I play blues and jazz - but I improvised using that scale without ever stopping to count the number of notes in it, or knowing what it's name was. I probably use one of those scales or modes when I play flamenco. I can improvise flamenco sounding stuff; so I must have internalized some scale or mode, without knowing its name. I can play some modern jazz and avant garde jazz. But I do it by the sound. I have never stopped to analyze and name any scales or modes I might be using. What are some examples of using non-standard scales and modes in modern music?

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 27 Nov 2005 10:22 pm

David, my questions were serious too, but nobody answered them

I can relate to what you're saying about operating by sound. Completely. When you start to study functions of things (and names are just a by-product of the need to identify those certain things), then you find out all kinds of other ways they can be used. It's all context.
As far as non-standard scales in modern music, I can't tell you much about that. With regard to Matt's question, I could only say it seems to resemble some Hebrew scales I've heard, with the b2 followed by a major third.
Which are mainly useful if you're gonna hava nagila. Then I think I'll hava 'nother nagila and go to bed.

-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 28 Nov 2005 5:15 am

Suppose you had all the scales and modes memorized. What the heck would you do with that knowledge?

Good question!
A: I wouldn't try to memorize them all. What I did do several years ago was transfer over the scale list chart I linked to above into Word, tidied it up and printed it out. When I see a scale like what Matt Dawson posted above (1 2b 3 4 5 6b 7b) I'm going to see the interval between the b2 and major 3 and think it's likely a derivative of the Harmonic Minor. (I personally can only "see" these things easily on a standard guitar neck - so far)

In order to simplify (believe me I need to), I would think of the basic chords of an A Harmonic Minor scale as being E major, F major, Ab dim and Am, with the obvious substitutions between major/minor, and the associated diminished chords B, D and F (build a chord off of each scale degree). Since the scale Matt posted is the 5th mode, it would be rooted in E using the above chords. If I wanted to know what chords likely to be associated with that scale in it's original context, I would shuffle these up and down. If I had a chord progression that I wanted to solo over, I would try to derive the "home scale" from what I know about song structures - *most* songs follow simple rules, with occasional changes in the tonal center strictly for cheap drama. There are jazz songs that intentionally, even mathematically change tonal centers ("Giant Steps?"), but it helps to know how to derive each separate one, in order to make any sense out of them.

There's all sorts of reasons for liking music of course; wanting to know the "why" of things could actually be considered sort of an affliction if it takes time away from memorizing licks and tricks to play onstage for money. This is just another set of tricks, I suppose - in that sense, Beethoven and Coltrane just knew a few more tricks than the next guy.[This message was edited by David Mason on 28 November 2005 at 05:29 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 28 Nov 2005 9:08 am

Knowing your modes and scales can make a big difference with how much money you make playing steel. I just got a lucrative set of gigs because of an extra tune they threw at me in the studio. It was a modal type thing that moved from dorian to mixolydian depending on the melody. Because I know my modes a little I was able to adjust my part to bring out the underlying structure of the tune. The more musical knowlege I get the more ways I understand how to bring the steel into the essential structure of the music rather than be at the mercy of songwriters/bands/producers that just want a cowboy hat on there tune.

Bob

Bill Cutright · Post by **Bill Cutright** » 28 Nov 2005 3:31 pm

John S.
The second chord in A-Train is IIb5. If the song is in C, I just play those scale tones and pivot off the Ab note. (This is one of many, great, classic, tension points in all of the "Standards" catalog).

Is the "At Last" chord you're talking about is the E-F transition into the key change part of the chorus - in the key of F? (then its Am Dm G C C#dim Dm G C). I haven't fooled around much with this one, so I don't really have any improvisational suggestions. (really cool song, tho - one of my all-time favorites - besides Etta's great voice, that intro is really enigmatic and floors me every time I listen to it).

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 28 Nov 2005 5:28 pm

Here's what I use, scales organized by modal families - this has been really helpful to me. I got it off of Harmony Central somehow, sometime, so I guess it's public domain. You can load it into a word-processing program and straighten out the spaces and bold stuff and underline to your heart's desire->

Major Scale Modes:

1) Major Scale (Ionian): no alternation
2) Dorian: flat 3, flat 7
3) Phrygian (Kurd, Arabic): flat 2, flat 3, flat 6, flat 7
4) Lydian: sharp 4
5) Mixolydian: flat 7
6) Aeolian (Natural Minor, Ancient Minor, Pure Minor): flat 3, flat 6,
flat 7
7) Locrian: flat 2, flat 3, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7

Melodic Minor Scale Modes

1) Melodic Minor (Jazz Minor): flat 3
2) Javanese: flat 2, flat 3, flat 7
3) Lydian Augmented: sharp 4, sharp 5, flat 7
4) Overtone (Lydian Dominant): sharp 4, flat 7
5) Hindu: flat 6, flat 7
6) Locrian natural 2: flat 3, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7
7) Super Locrian (Altered, Ravel): flat 2, flat 3, 4, flat 5, flat 6,
flat 7

Harmonic Minor Scale Modes:

1) Harmonic Minor Scale (Mohammedan): flat 3, flat 6
2) Locrian Natural 6: flat 2, flat 3, flat 5, flat 7
3) Harmonic Major: sharp 5
4) Romanian: flat 3, sharp 4, flat 7
5) Phrygian Dominant (Major Phrygian, Balkan, Jewish, Spanish Gypsy,
Ahavoh Rabboh): flat 2, flat 6, flat 7
6) Lydian sharp 2: sharp 2, sharp 4
7) Ultra Locrian: flat 2, flat 3, 4, flat 5, flat 6, double flat 7

Double Harmonic Minor Scale Modes

1) Double Harmonic Minor (Byzantine, Gypsy, Charhargah, East Indian
Raga): flat 2, flat 6
2) sharp 2, sharp 4, sharp 6
3) flat 2, flat 3, 4, flat 6, double flat 7
4) Hungarian Minor (Algerian): flat 3, sharp 4, flat 6
5) Oriental: flat 2, flat 5, flat 7
6) sharp 2, sharp 5
7) flat 2, double flat 3, flat 5, flat 6, double flat 7

Neapolitan Major Modes

1) Neapolitan Major: flat 2, flat 3
2) sharp 4, sharp 5, sharp 6
3) sharp 4, sharp 5, flat 7
4) Lydian Minor: sharp 4, flat 6, flat 7
5) Major Locrian (Arabian): flat 5, flat 6, flat 7
6) flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7
7) flat 2, double flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7

Neapolitan Minor Modes

1) Neapolitan Minor: 2, 3, 6
2) sharp 4, sharp 6
3) Mixolydian Augmented: sharp 5, flat 7
4) Hungarian Gypsy: flat 3, sharp 4, flat 6, flat 7
5) flat 2, flat 5, flat 6, flat 7
6) sharp 2
7) flat 2, double flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, flat 6, double flat 7

Hungarian Major Modes

1) Hungarian Major: sharp 2, sharp 4, flat 7
2) flat 2, flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, double flat 6, double flat 7
3) flat 3, flat 5,flat 6
4) flat 2, flat 3, flat 4, flat 5, flat 7
5) flat 3, sharp 5
6) flat 2, flat 3, sharp 4, flat 7
7) sharp 3, sharp 4, sharp 5

Indian Ragas

Todi: flat 2, flat 3, sharp 4, flat 6
Marva: flat 2, sharp 4

Miscellaneous

Persian: flat 2, flat 5, flat 6
Enigmatic: flat 2, sharp 4, sharp 5, sharp 6
Spanish Eight Tone: flat 3, (3), flat 5, flat 6, flat 7

Synthetic Scales

Synthetic scales are scales that follow particular orders in the steps
between the note values, rather than traditional tonal construction.
The following scales are listed by their formulas rather than interval
differences to the major scale.

Chromatic: (all ½ step distances): ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½, ½
Whole Tone (all whole step distances): 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
Diminished: 1, ½, 1, ½, 1, ½, 1, ½
Inverted Diminished: ½, 1, ½, 1, ½, 1, ½, 1
Augmented Scale: 1½, ½, 1½, ½, 1½, ½

Pentatonic Scales

Because of the variations possible in pentatonic scales and different intervals being excluded, all the intervals in each scale are listed rather than just the altered intervals compared to the major scale.

Pentatonic Major Modes

1) Major Scale Pentatonic (Mongolian): 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8
2) Egyptian: 1, 2, 4, 5, flat 7, 8
3) 1, flat 3, 4, flat 6, flat 7, 8
4) Ritusen: 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 8
5) Pentatonic minor: 1, flat 3, 4, 5, flat 7, 8

Exotic Pentatonic Scales

Japanese: 1, flat 2, 4, 5, flat 6, 8
Chinese: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8
Chinese: 1, 3, sharp 4, 5, 7, 8
Iwato: 1, flat 2, 4, 5, flat 7, 8
Scriabin: 1, flat 2, 3, 5, 6, 8
Hirajoshi: 1, 2, flat 3, 5, flat 6, 8
Kumoi: 1, 2, flat 3, 5, 6, 8
Pelog (Balinese): 1, flat 2, flat 3, 5, flat 6, 8
Indian Pentatonic: 1, 3, 4, 5, flat 7, 8

Hexatonic scales (6 note scales):

Prometheus: 1, 2, 3, sharp 4, 6, flat 7, 8
Prometheus Neapolitan: 1, flat 2, 3, sharp 4, 5, flat 7, 8
Blues Scale: 1, flat 3, 4, sharp 4, 5, flat 7, 8

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Nov 2005 7:40 pm

Not to be picky, but isn't it easier to think of the blues scale as: 1, flat 3, 4, flat 5, 5, flat 7. Seems to me I've always heard talk of the flat 5 in blues and jazz, never a sharp 4. It just seems to make more sense with the flat 3 and flat 7. Basically, all the odd numbered tones are flated.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 28 November 2005 at 07:42 PM.]

Pat Kelly · Post by **Pat Kelly** » 29 Nov 2005 7:16 pm

Very good. Seeing as a note can be raised or lowered by an immeasurably small amount.....What about notes that fall outside of the semitones structure. Are they just out of tune?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 29 Nov 2005 7:27 pm

That depends on where you live, Pat.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 30 Nov 2005 6:32 am

David M. Great LIST!!
I gotta copy this critter down.

The use of modes is not neccesarily to
use them all the time...
but to
a) have them available for unusual transitional changes

b) and alternate flavor when you have already done the blues licks in a solo,
and get another chance at the changes, ( "yeah man, take another!")

c) as Bob Hoffnar noted,
because some songs have unusual modal nuances,
and if you have ever worked on those modes,
you are NOT COMPLETELY LOST when something unusuaL COMES UP.

d) because the more you know the better you play PERIOD!

e) you play out of modes in many song's melodies,
you just don't recognize that is is a specifical modal derived change.
Though it may only be a few measures out of a pentatonical song,
isn't it better to know why it was written like that

If you limit yourself to certain typical possibilities, then ...
that's all ya got...
It then becomes oh so easy to stay in the same thing all night long.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 30 November 2005 at 06:32 AM.]

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 30 Nov 2005 9:59 am

And you guys play just for the joy of playing?

It seems that you need some "Mary Had a Little Lamb" practise.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

John Poston · Post by **John Poston** » 30 Nov 2005 10:47 am

[This message was edited by John Poston on 30 November 2005 at 10:48 AM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Dec 2005 7:21 pm

The purpose of this topic was to learn the names of the 4 scale modes that I actually use. The problem with all of this obscure theory is that there's too much of it. It's really good to know the names of the normal stuff.

I thought I had it, but now I've lost it again. All of this extra crap has once again cluttered my brain. 4 modes, that's all I asked for.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 3 Dec 2005 11:57 pm

Bobby-

Here it is, quick and easy.

First one is Ionian. Regular major. "C as a 1 chord." (key of C)

Second is Mixolydian. This is Dominant, or "C7th as a 5 chord." (key of F)

Third is Dorian. This is 'Regular Minor' "C- as a 2- chord." (key of Bb)

Fourth is Aeolian. "C- as a 6- chord." (key of Eb)

-MG

P.S. - Bobby is right to ask us to keep it simple. These are the ones that you'll acutually use the most. How many times do you see a country song with a 3 chord? a 7 chord? You can play Lydian major over a 4 chord, just think of it as regular major with a sharp 4. [This message was edited by Michael Garnett on 04 December 2005 at 12:03 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Dec 2005 5:21 am

Unless we're talking about Pakistani country music.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 4 Dec 2005 6:35 am

So to keep it simple..

Western Swing in Texas is ACTUALLY played on
the Eb Aeolian neck

And Jimmy Crawford prefered the
Nashville A Mixolydian 9th tuning.

yeah yeah I get it!