Music and religion redux.

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 27 Sep 2004 9:12 am

Pascal didn't call it a wager. That phrase became vernacular as people read and studied the theory. The bottom line is that you either accept or deny the Bible as God's word, the truth. If you accept that, the rest is easy. If you don't, the rest is hard.

Regarding the "wager" - if you have been exposed to the teachings of the Bible (told the truth if you will), then the dichotomy exists. You either accept or deny it as truth. Once you have read the Bible, or been exposed to it's teachings, the so called "wager" is automatic. That's what free-will is.

David, there are far more accurate translations done by contemporary linguistic scholars from the original texts. Just a few words can make all the difference. "Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean(1). Take your evil deeds out of my sight! Stop doing wrong, learn to do right(2). Seek justice, encourage the opressed(3). Defend the cause of the fatherless(4), plead the case of the widow. 'Come let us reason together,' says the Lord. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool(5). If you are willing(6) and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you rebel, you will be destroyed by the sword.(7)"

1. A chance to make a choice to poetically "wash and be clean"

2. Learn to do right - it's not an automatic skill. The ways of God must be learned and put into practice

3. Encourage not relieve. Only God can relieve the oppressed. If you kill the oppressor you have traded one sin for another.

4. Defend the cause - not judge. Again, judgement is something that is reserved for God alone.

5. Let's sit down and make an informed decision here. What is right and what is wrong. There is "reason" to the process.

6. Again, "willing" implies a thought out decision.

7. Notice God did NOT say "by MY sword". This implies that after you have reasoned through it, and made a decision for good, the rewards are obvious. If you make a poor decision and choose not to to follow (obedience) God's ways, the result is SELF-destructive - again, a choice.

Now, since we have drifted so far, I again offer you all the option of email. Thanks to those who have responeded in that way and have respected the spirit of this forum.

Don

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fo·rum - n - A public meeting place for open discussion.
-------- mod·er·a·tor - n. - One that arbitrates or mediates.
-------- de-bate - v. - To discuss or argue (a question, for example) formally, sufficiently
-------- observing or befitting accepted social usages.

[This message was edited by Don Joslin on 27 September 2004 at 10:15 AM.]

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 27 Sep 2004 12:15 pm

A couple of interesting responses I'd like to comment on.

David M.--all excellent points. That's basically what I'm getting at. My question though, is whether or not there's something specific to religious thinking--in particular, the embracing of an ... apologies, but there's no other way to put this and retain the meaning... irrational concept--that makes it easier to have the kind of transcendent experience I'm thinking of.

Put another way, I'm wondering if those people who seem to be able to easily and regularly induce "spiritual" ecstasy in themselves and their audience (such as the Sacred Steel artists), have an easier time of it because of their way of thinking, or if it's more a matter of the church environment, conditioning and expectations.

David L.D., great points also. Your post raises a little bit of a chicken and egg conundrum--did music and dancing in a group lead to the kinds of experiences which we now label as religious, or did the idea of religion/gods come first, inspiring attempts to reach them/it it through song, dance, prayer, meditation, or what have you?

David D. (there's a pattern here...), your observation about the "two poles" is interesting. Also, the idea that you "can put yourself into a musical trance for Jesus, Yaweh, Allah, Krishna, the devil, the fertility god, or take your pick," is one I basically agree with, and my follow up is the same as above: Is it something about religion per se, that makes this possible?

Music is a part of any religion I can think of. How it's used, of course, varies quite a bit, ranging from frenetic Voodoo ceremony for the purposes of inducing posession to slow, meditative Buddhist chanting (I'd be interested in hearing of any religions that don't have a large music component--Scientology, maybe?). Obviously, it's useful for religions in some way.

I'm not exactly sure what the right questions are, here. I suppose the main thrust of the discussion might be answering the related questions, "How has religion and religious experience affected music in the past, and how does it do so today?" and "How has music affected religion and the religious experience in the past, and how does it do so today?

-Travis[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 27 September 2004 at 01:19 PM.]

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 27 Sep 2004 12:38 pm

Hmmm...My two clunker notes' worth. It is easier to have faith in SOMETHING than nothing. For without that faith in God and the hereafter(sp?), there would not be a reason to exist on this here place of sorrows,aka,planet earth. It is easy to put your faith in the things that you can see,feel,and hear. I equate it to Radon gas. You can't detect it with the senses,but, it's there. Same with God. As far as the Music, it kind of goes hand in hand. Someone said something about how they didn't think Christian Rock. That's ok,I don't like alot of it,but, I have met quite a few folks who say that they came to thier faith through the music of bands like Stryper,Petra,and Rez Band.

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D.S. Rigsby
Carter Starter and various six string toys

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 27 Sep 2004 1:46 pm

O.K., well here’s at least one question worth asking:
Q: What GOOD could it possibly do you and your playing to believe in an infinite source of inspiration?
A1: It could help override some of the effects of your internal naysayer. I mean, you know that if you moved your fingers twice as fast, the notes would come out twice as fast, so why don’t you? Because you think you can’t? There are some issues of muscle memory and nerve conductance speed here, but the former takes mere practice (albeit years, but what are years for?), and in the latter the variance in speed of nerve conductance between different people is only 10-15%, not enough to account for the difference between you and John McLaughlin or Doug Jernigan.
A2: It might allow you more open access to, and confidence in, your sub-and-unconscious memory. Again – you’ve played every note on your guitar at least once – so what’s the problem? You already KNOW what they sound like… and they’re all still right where they were the last time, in the same relationships to each other. HA HA HA! This one frustrates the bejeebers out of me…. I guess that mentally allowing for the possibility of infinite wisdom might make it a trifle easier to grasp a tiny little piece of it?
A3: Once you get your spiritual hash settled once and for all, you can stop spending all your time reading philosophy books and asking weird questions on the internet and just practice till your BRAINS BLOW OUT YOUR EARS.

It probably goes without saying, I’m a whole lot better at identifying this kind of stuff than I am at actually doing it, especially A3.

P.S. (Areas with strong commonality between organized religions and communal music experiences include mind control, social conformity, and trance states, but I’d better backchannel that to avoid blowing up the thread, hmmm.)

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Sep 2004 1:58 pm

Is it something about religion per se, that makes this possible?

It aids in the complete abandonment of self,
which is often part and parcell of a trancendendant expirence,
but certainly not all of it.

I was the only non black person out of 3000 in an Easter Sunday Church service in huge theater in Roxbury Mass; inner city Boston, about 17 years ago.

I was hired to do sound and record the sevice,
by a guy in one of the bands I was mixing regularly.

He was someone in need of saving himself, but in general there were alsmot exclusively good church going folk,
who in spite of my novelty in the room, made me feel very much at home and very welcome.

It was a 6+ hour service with a 12 piece band, a kickin B3 player, horns, 2 drummers, 20 person string section, 70 person choir.
A right holy rollin kind of sound happening.

And me putting up mics through it all.

Eventually I had my things running smooth, in spite of a late start through no fault of my own.
Harold the guy who hired me, was recovering from and idiotic night before, he should REALLY have avoided.
No details needed except that this was the early 80's.

Well I had my reel changes timed, so I found a seat and enjoyed the testifying, and great singing,
the pasteur in full easter sunday energy and feeling.
A fine strong sermon, or rather sermons.

A very enjoyable and impressive day.

There also where many women dressed like nurses there,
and I didn't quite get this...
until the 300+ lb lady in the seat in front of me was
"taken with the spirit", and went backwards over her seat on top of me....
and didn't get up...

I figured I needed to aid the lady in getting back into a safe position, and also allow myself to recomence breathing in a short period of time...

As I started to aid us with this predicament, 2 "nurses" grabbed my hands and pulled then from this womans back!! One said
"You must NOT put your hands on her
when she is taken with the spirit, we will lift her."

Of course since she was crushing me so much I couldn't actually breath,
I didn't really see how this restriction in this case applied. We most certainly were in too close contact.

But shortly 5-6 "nurses" did lifter up, and revive her. With may many "thank you Jesus"'s and "praise the lords".

Now I can easily imagine this woman was brought to another place
by emotion, the music and God's good word.

I also felt good that day... after regular breathing was restored...
And a nice sense of peace and a good thing done.

During the service Harold had passed out in the darkened stairwell and eventually tripped a 6'5" decon flat onto his back in the aisle in front of the full congregation... Even the band missed a beat on that one.
But that's another story.

After the service, he tried to blame me for being late; "Very christian" of him I thought,
when I had spent 15 minutes ringing his bell,
and another 10 minutes watching him sleep on his plate at a table in MacDonalds that morning.
Ignoring my remonstrances to: get a leg on dude.

He actually arrived with a bit of eg up his nose.. as noted by another Deacon.

The assembled deacons saw through this without a doubt, he got a rather thourough upbrading, but the pasteur was quite cheerfull with me.
I was paid, I also gave a nice donation back.

I shook around 500 hands that day, was praised for coming and asked repeatedly if I had enjoyed the service.

I had three invitations to sunday dinner,
but had a later gig to do.

So music and ferver, and spiritual transport all go hand in hand in my eyes.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 September 2004 at 03:31 PM.]

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 27 Sep 2004 6:39 pm

So many have said things so well, I hesitate to add, except for an answer to
Donald, such as it may be.

Christianity starts and ends with Christ, if you are a believer. He said, "Behold I stand at the door and knock." To those who have opened that door and let him come in, it becomes clear, sometimes with some study. He is the author and finisher of our faith and (understanding) however incomplete we may understand.

All authority is given in Him and in the bible. His anointing is given there.

It's an old statement but it's true.

To those who believe, no explaination is necessary.
To those who don't believe, no explaination is possible.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 27 Sep 2004 8:48 pm

Just one more time... Can we please keep to the topic of music? This is not the place to argue about religious beliefs.

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<img align=left src="http://picturehost.net/b0b/ManzBob2.jpg" border="0"> Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com 
System Administrator

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Sep 2004 4:01 am

David M. very interesting post.

Lang... since you insist on calling me Donald, and not David.
Your comment to me seems based on YOUR assumption,
not on any facts I have stated.

There are components in music, and also church music, that some elements of the clergy have tried to control or supress, for their own ends over time.

Discussing that, or describing specific instances, or asking questions,
should not be construed as a specfic statement of faith.

You seem to have made a decision on me..
that is not yours to make. Or you would not have adressed that to me directly, but as a general responce.

Back to music.
I see no reason to not enjoy others traditions, both musical, cultural or faith based.
Whether any are my roots or not.

It is like saying, I like country music, so I can't also like jazz, and must only like country gospel. And not gospel jazz.

Or I like indian raga's, so it diminishes Bach's liturgical music.

Or If I was raised in or adopted one sect, I may not admire or observe the good in another, or it;s music,
because it is " not correct dogmatically"...
Nonsense.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 September 2004 at 05:21 AM.]

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 28 Sep 2004 4:54 am

One man's "argument" is another man's "discussion"

At least people are (in general) being very nice, b0b; I think they're to be commended. I said what I have to say on this subject on the previous thread- or at least I've decided to leave it there.

Overall, it's been an enlightening exchange- hopefully for all concerned.

Rick

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 28 Sep 2004 5:15 am

Don't forget those dirty "blue" notes and savage jungle rhythms which incite adolescents everywhere to have wild teenage sex. I sure don't, I play 'em all the time. One of the things that interests me about Indian music is that the raga form allows quotations from everywhere - nursery rhymes, Bach licks, all kinds of stuff shows up depending on what the musician has been listening to. I have a Ravi Shankar album from the early 60's which has a quite credible b@njo imitation - on a SITAR (this was the height of the Earl Scruggs craze), and there is a young sitar player named Indrajit Banerjee who has clearly listened to modern electric blues guitarists. This stuff will pop out in their playing, which for them is an act of improvisational devotion or prayer. I find this much more listenable than those hideous (GAAK!) "world music fusion" collaborations.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Sep 2004 6:40 am

Rick I agree, and guess you have already said you piece, but suspected you were still following.
I apreciate you actually quoting me at one point.

One phrase that has stuck with me is :
"There is more in heaven and earth, than is drempt of in (our) philosophy"

David M. I can agree about the raga form, and it's drawing from many places.
Trilock Gurtu's latest has some bebop inflected sitar playing, that s really intresting.
It is also coming from a spiritual place.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 28 Sep 2004 8:13 am

I have thoroughly enjoyed this entire thread, but I have heretofore chosen to "lurk" rather than participate because of it's erudite nature.

However, treading on ground that even angels fear to tread, I will say that I usually avoid compartmentalization of music that I hear (except for the purpose of communication for discussion)....I either like it when I hear it, or I don't.

......but religion is another matter,and I cannot accept it by using the above criteria! If I believe, I cannot embrace that which I would "prefer",(read, more permissive than mine). I must believe that the admonitions and teachings of the Bible are inspired or there is no hope after death.

Believing in the scriptures, I must also believe that it is said that "each of us must search out our salvation with fear and trembling"....and that "God will have mercy on those whom he will have mercy"! To find the way, I believe that one must "search" the scriptures!

My God bless us all in our search for the way to his salvation.

Gene Jones

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 28 Sep 2004 9:14 am

Two quick things...

First off, without wishing to offend anyone, I doubt someone who is not christian will find any value in justifying belief based on the bible. If someone told you that the Vedas prove that Vishnu and Shiva are the true gods you should worship, it wouldn't carry any weight with you, I don't think. So why should the bible carry weight with an atheist or a non-christian?

And on a musical note: there are devices that induce specific brainwave states with pulsed light and sound at specific rates. There are indications that drumbeats coupled with flickering fire/lamplight can induce trance states that are based on a similar method. (you can google "light-sound entrainment" and read a bunch on this.) So, it seems certainly possible that certain more rhythmic (non-Western) forms of religious music actually induce a literal trance-state... light sound entrainment can produce extremely deep levels of Alpha, Beta, or Theta brainwave activity. I've tried one of the boxes, and it was pretty powerful.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Sep 2004 10:46 am

Gene, you have said that all VERY well.

Nicholas.
I can see what your saying also.
But not just for non western religious music.

I imagined Bach organ arpegios,
in the 5th hour of a service in winter,
the sensors smoking, the torches flickering,
dinner a calling but not soon a coming,

Bach really ringing the room, filled with 700 people,
with resounding low notes shaking the bowls, and those soaring mounting arpegios over a choir of glorias.

Can you'all picture it?

Sounds like a pretty good source of brainwave entrainment.
Or the brains of men being entrained with the vibrations ,
in tune with the environment we observe through ourperception of environment... which is all vibrations ultimately.

Not to say this is bad or manipulative.
Just that it seem likely to have this affect also.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 28 Sep 2004 12:06 pm

But if you entrain people's minds with ET tuning instead of JI, won't it fritz their nervous systems? Maybe it's not all Elvis's and Dr. Spock's fault after all....

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Sep 2004 2:38 pm

JI is a westerned learned responce.

The basic vibrational building blocks of the universe are very square in form... ET

BUT the interactive resonances of the chaos involved is not,
so depending on your culture, audio could be either,
to a slightly stronger extent depending.

Since people are used to interacting with chaotic resonances,
JI might seem closer to normal,
yet ET might cause a more disassociative entrainment...

Since getting entrained and dissasociating from reality might be deemed a part of this desired effect,
then a stronger ET component might be called for in the basic song structure.
Yet the harmonic interaction of the instruments would likely be more JI, depending on cultural issues.
As needed to interest the listeners enough to get entrained.

I also think disco trance music is in this vien,
but with a diamtertically opposed social function.ZZZZNNNN SSSZZZZNNHHH
rave, rave, rave ,and ther for get raving mad.

Of course singing your mantra is monophonic, and so is likely your peronsonnal take on JI

Such as the shobuddists mantra :
buddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmons buddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmons buddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmons buddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmons buddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmons buddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmons buddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmons buddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmons buddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmonsbuddyemmons

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 September 2004 at 03:54 PM.][This message was edited by b0b on 28 September 2004 at 04:45 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 28 Sep 2004 2:50 pm

Yes, watch out for those subversive blue notes and primal jungle rythms. They lead to promiscuity and marijuana addiction.

A1: I'd be interested to see the results of an experiment which took one hundred (say) believers and two hundred non-believers of otherwise similar backgrounds and abilities, and asked them to learn and perform different tasks. The believers would be asked to pray or whatever for assistance, one hundred of the non-believers would use some kind of non-religious mental trick analogous to holding a religious belief, and the remaining hundred non-believers would be your control group, and do nothing out of the ordinary. Things to check for would be how well each group learns the various tasks, what their morale is like, how they evaluate their own progress (would religious believers evaluate themselves higher, thus increasing their confidence and ability to perform?), and probably a few other things.

A2: Yeah, frustrating, no kidding. I've been bothered by something like this ever since I was a young boy. I remember shooting a basketball towards the hoop and scoring a basket. Then, from the exact same spot on the court, shooting again and missing. I have always found this kind of puzzling. And witness all the sports stars who thank "god" for their tournament victories (never, of course, blaming god if they lose...). Which proves nothing, but it's another example of religion being associated with excellence in a physical discipline.

A3: Heh. Yeah, that's gonna happen.

As for the postscript, as long as we're whispering I think it'll be okay...

(Thanks for the story, David L.D.)

As I see it, there are two things being talked about here. First, the effects of religious belief on one's playing in a live setting. And second, the interaction of religion and music throughout history. On the first issue, I personally don't believe that the crucial positive physical and mental effects of the "religious" experience are tied to one's belief (or not) in some vague, undefinable notion of "god." The religious might have a bit of an advantage when it comes to achieving the sort of effects I'm talking about, but only because of their conditioning and expectations. In the experiment described above, the religious group might have an advantage at first, but I'll bet that the results would even out over time, as the second group learns what they're doing. I think it's interesting--albeit probably beyond the scope of this discussion and my knowledge of the subject, I'm starting to realize--to compare the two domains (that is, the secular and religious mindsets).

As for the second, the way I see the topic unfolding is also well beyond my knowledge of the subject. Still, interesting food for thought.

I'm not sure where to take this discussion at this point. The most I can really say with authority is that I think the relationship between music and religion is complex and interesting. Beyond that, I'm pretty much out of stuff to say. For now...

-Travis

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 28 Sep 2004 2:56 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot all about Trance music, and all that other dance music the kids are listening to these days (yeesh, this subject is enormous). That kind of music might be a candidate for a secular music that provokes the kind of "transcendent" experiences we're talking about.

More food for thought...

-Travis

P.S. "Shobuddhist." Oy vey...[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 28 September 2004 at 03:59 PM.]

Nicholas Dedring · Post by **Nicholas Dedring** » 28 Sep 2004 3:06 pm

Actually, not to short circuit the joke, light-sound devices
are not affected by the musicality of the tone. It's a basic
ticking or beeping in rhythm. That, coupled with pulsed light at a similar rhythm causes the brain waves to fall into
a particular pattern... I got to see one that a friend had
who used it for his patients (the dude in question is a
psychotherapist...) You could have music playing through
it, but it wasn't necessary... just a rapid, pulsed tick/beep
sort of sound, and glasses flashing light in rhythm in front
of your eyes.

The first unit was built by William S. Burroughs... but the
mechanism has been present for an eternity in the human
brain... it's the same thing that gives some people
photo-epileptic seizures. Travis, you're probably the one
here closest to the heart of it when considering rave kids.

While the drugs in vast amounts probably work on things
as well

the driving pulsed beat and pulsed light in sync
quite possibly do create an altered state of consciousness,
PROVIDED that they are in certain ranges of function.

You can, at certain frequencies, literally see patterns that
are not present, and there are studies that show enhanced
capacity to learn languages and other skills when "entrained"
at certain frequencies... I'm generally a real skeptic about
anything new age-esque, but this was a real eye opener.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 28 Sep 2004 3:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>JI is a westerned learned responce.

The basic vibrational building blocks of the universe are very square in form... ET <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, I think it's the opposite. The natural harmonic sequence is JI. It deals with small integer ratios between frequencies, and it exists in all wavelengths.

ET is an artificial slicing of the natural octave into 12 parts. Each frequency is derived by multiplying the previous frequency by the twelfth root of two. Where does that number (or any twelfth root) appear in the "basic vibrational building blocks of the universe", David?

Gregarian chants are JI. Our music evolved from that, and picked up ET along the way.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 28 Sep 2004 3:57 pm

I remember last year a group of scientists decided that the universe was tuned to Bb.

Seriously.

-John
p.s. I'll bet Columbus would have disputed that.

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 28 Sep 2004 4:03 pm

Sorry David. My tounge got caught on my eyetooth and I couldn't see what I was saying....er...typing. Correction taken.

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 28 Sep 2004 6:30 pm

Man, you guys are "out there".

[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 28 September 2004 at 07:30 PM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 29 Sep 2004 2:37 am

I know that some musicians with perfect pitch claim to hear the different notes as "colors" - that sounds "out there" to me, but hey, they have perfect pitch and I don't. Some other very respectable musicians say that different keys have different moods - D minor "feels" different than E minor, for example. I also know that some Westerners become very agitated when they listen to Javanese gamelin music, Indian, Persian music, anything that uses a lot of notes outside of the 12 ET tones we have grown up listening to. Indian and Javanese people, no problem. Now, there are some who would hold that the vibrations of specific notes correspond to specific neural impulses. I consider this to be at best unsupported by research (that I know of), at worst some sort of Pluto-orbiting Hindu/California-New-Age nonsense, BUT: everybody in all cultures seem to "know" that major scales are happy, minor scales are sad, flatted 5ths and 9ths are disturbing etc. Is there any basis for belief in a sort of innate "natural" music, to which we all in some way or another aspire? And therefore, also a corresponding "unnatural" music, specifically useful for overstimulating base urges and entraining Satan, etc.?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 29 Sep 2004 2:48 am

b0b It was quite late,
I think what I meant to say was that the building blocks are based on equal frequency divisions of frequency.

Is not ET a precice division based on number division, Always 440, 800, 220, 1760 etc,
while JI, or a tempered tuning, is based on minimising beats and uses varied divisions from pure numberical divisions?

We perceive them based on their chaotic interactions. Or in a resonant domain for the ears to brain translation.

This is likely better pereived to the western ear as a tempered tuning.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 29 September 2004 at 05:28 AM.]