Music and religion

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 8 Sep 2004 5:08 am

This is one of those threads where I'm reminded that God gave me only one mouth but two ears--and two eyes.

Thanks for some thought provoking reading.

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HagFan

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 8 Sep 2004 5:31 am

Let me say up front that I am also NOT a big fan of organized religion. I see organized religion as little more than crowd control. I have been "stung" but several narrow minded and restrictive ministers/congregations. Actually, once by a music minister. However, I am a firm and faithful believer in Jesus Christ as my God and Savior. Here's why.

<HR>

I believe that Jesus may have existed as a man, but not as the son of God. The Gospels were supposedly written forty or so years after the crucifiction and M,M,L and J seem to have some contradictions in their writings.

It is exactly those contradictions that make the accounts acceptable as truth. If all the accounts were exactly the same, that would prove conspiricy. It is the contradictions that historians (not just Biblical historians) use to validate any historical account. The things that different accounts agree on are what is accepted as truth - like the fact that Jesus performed miracles, was crucified and rose from the dead.

The second validation that historians use is the social climate. What would the account gain the writer if it were a lie or the truth? During the time the gospels were written the only thing these accounts could provide the authors was a DEATH SENTENCE from the Roman Empire for themselves AND their families. Why would they tell this story if it was a lie? In fact, a more likely scenario would be if they denied the whole thing. But they did not and at the risk of their lives, and the lives of their families, they not only told the story, but they wrote it down and put their names on it.

The gospels were written a MERE 40 years after Christ rose from the dead. This makes them almost first hand in terms of history. A good example is all we know about Alexander the Great was written by one man almost 400 years after Alexander lived. Do we question his existence? We have at least four accounts of Jesus written a mere 40 years after his life!

<HR>

Personally, I am always moved by the beauty and wonder of creation. I will never be convinced that this magnificent, orderly world in which we live, or the beautiful people that are here, are "accidental"; I see the hand of a Master Designer at every turn.

Couldn't have said it better. A couple of years back I read an article in Scientific American that stated that early scientists were typically athiests. However, the more we discovered and continue to discover about the physical makeup of the universe, the more scientist profess that this evidence points toward a creator. Now, the actual physical evidence is so clear that contemporary scientists dismiss athiests as basically egomaniacs (their words not mine). It's a pretty simple concept to me when you just look around.

<HR>

But a Dog was blessed Also( one of God's creatures)with far superior hearing,a greater frequency span.If we could only know how they hear music,or what they think of the steel guitar.

You are correct in that a dog hears a greater frequency range than a human. Hearing "music" has to do with the way the brain processes sound. Unfortunately, a dog can hear frequencies but thier brains process sound differently than ours. A dog can hear melody but what they cannot hear (or process) is HARMONY. That's why some dogs howl when music is played.

Back to the original point. I agree that music is truly a gift both to and from God and the best is played to his glory.

Don

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 8 Sep 2004 5:47 am

Let me say up front that I am also NOT a big fan of organized religion. I see organized religion as little more than crowd control. I have been "stung" but several narrow minded and restrictive ministers/congregations. Actually, once by a music minister. However, I am a firm and faithful believer in Jesus Christ as my God and Savior.

I couldn't have said this better myself. Not even in Norwegian....

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 8 Sep 2004 11:09 am

There are about a thousand million Buddhists and Confusionists in China, a thousand million or so Hindus and Sihks in India, and a whole lot of Muslims and Jews, all of whom think that Christianity is a mistake. Christians think that all the above mentioned religions are a mistake. Some of us think that they are all correct in their opinions.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 8 Sep 2004 11:17 am

All the religions you mentioned worship a dead god with the exception of the Christian religion. We are the only religion that worships a living Savior!! Praise the Lord!
Erv

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 8 Sep 2004 2:02 pm

Hi Bruce - I love religious debate and you make a valid point and one that is brought up quite often. However, regarding the Buddhists and Confusionists in China, that happens to be a religion mandated by the state that requires you to jump through a series of hoops over multiple lifetimes in order to reach Heaven. Christianity is based on freedom of choice. You either believe or you don't, it's your choice. The numbers of devotes in those countries doesn't mean much either. They have no birth control in China or India and both have severe population problems. So great that the Chinese government is trying to mandate how many children you can have. By the way, when was the last time you heard about a Buddhists or Confusionist missionary who was trying to actually get out and help the underpriviledged.

Regarding the Jewish faith, there is a huge movement within the Judiasm that is Christ centered. It's called Messianic Judiasm. It's true, do your research.

Finally, if there are people out there that say these other beliefs are a "mistake", then they are certainly not Christian. In Christianity, those types of judgements are reserved for God.

Consider this. As a Christian, I believe that Christ is the Son of God, who died on the cross for my sins, and rose from the dead to provide me, a simple human sinner, a path to eternal salvation. The Bible says that only those adults (children are innocent) who do not believe are in jeopardy. Therefore, if I am wrong in my belief then nothing is at risk. Nothing changes and the result is benign. However, if I am right then the non-believer is truly in dire straits. Which path is the most prudent?

Steinar & Erv - Amen!

Don

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 8 Sep 2004 2:30 pm

WOW! great reading guys. I hope they don't lock it down. IN an effort to keep this post afloat, I think that when I play any guitar, that I play the best when inspired of God. I mean how awesome is it to think that we as simple humans have the right and ability to play for the King of Kings.

Rick

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 8 Sep 2004 3:16 pm

Hi, everyone. Don, you like religious debate and I am glad you do. It is one subject with such diverse views, which I like. I might accept as fact that Jesus was crucified, but not as fact that he performed miracles or rose from the dead.
Cicero, writing in 'De Divinatione' about miracles said: For nothing can happen without cause; nothing happens that cannot happen, and when what was capable of happening has happened, it may not be interpreted as a miracle. Consequently there are no miracles. We therefore draw this conclusion; what was incapable of happening never happened and what was capable of happening is not a miracle'. As for Jesus rising from the dead; I cannot accept this. It is impossible to rise from the dead, unless he was still alive, but then he was witnessed physically rising to Heaven. I'll leave it now because we have completely left the topic of music. If you know of another site where we could yap, please let me, us know.
All the best ,Arch. [This message was edited by Archie Nicol on 08 September 2004 at 04:19 PM.][This message was edited by Archie Nicol on 08 September 2004 at 04:30 PM.][This message was edited by Archie Nicol on 08 September 2004 at 04:32 PM.][This message was edited by Archie Nicol on 11 September 2004 at 04:52 PM.]

Tay Joslin · Post by **Tay Joslin** » 8 Sep 2004 5:13 pm

Colossians 2:8 says "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." In short, many of the ideas represented on this post are not in accordance with God's will, so I will now excuse myself. It takes a total lack of courage for a man to deny God. However, I wish the best for you.

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 8 Sep 2004 5:27 pm

Arch,

The best evidence of the resurrection is that 12 men (the "disciples") who claimed to have seen the RISEN Christ never recanted their stories, even though they all (with the exception of John) were martyred. Why would they die, almost to a man, for what they knew to be a hoax? Would you? Would any rational person? Of course not.

And what of their changed lives? They were "nobodies" before, but those twelve people changed the course of civilization.

These questions bear serious consideration by anyone who claims to be intellectually honest.

And... in the interest of keeping this discussion "on topic," if Christ is not risen then all this great religious music is meaningless!

Rick[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 08 September 2004 at 06:33 PM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 8 Sep 2004 5:57 pm

Well........, to me, discussing faith is kind of wasted time simply because it is 'faith' and not science. It's not so much about 'facts', 'reason' or 'logic', but something inexplainable that one has chosen to believe in, one way or the other...

So for me it's a very private and individual matter, and as I tried to explain in my previous post, I have a serious problem with organized religion,- man has done so much wrong in the name of 'religion', and organized religion will always include some sort of man made hierarchy that opens the way for power abuse and people with a bad hunger for that power.

So I prefer to let it be a private matter between me and my God, and in that sense I guess my music is also a way of communicating with God....

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 08 September 2004 at 06:58 PM.]

Savell · Post by **Savell** » 9 Sep 2004 4:32 am

All the religions you mentioned worship a dead god with the exception of the Christian religion. We are the only religion that worships a living Savior!! Praise the Lord!

Erv,
Great point! Please allow me to expound a bit.

I believe there are two major differences between Christianity and the majority of other religions. I am sure there are some religions that I have yet to hear of.

1 – a. Most religions worship/honor a dead main prophet/priest.

1 – b. We as Christians have the only one high priest that has experienced “DEATH” and conquered it. As well, he has granted us the same victory. This is why we refer to Christ as our Saviour.

2 – a. Most religions maintain that their God is however still in existance (Living). Sadly, they believe their God simply remains somewhere out there looking down on them executing judgement via favor or revenge. Basicly put, either he likes you or he doesn’t.

2 – b. We as Christians have the one and only high priest that intercedes to our God (the Father) as He looks down upon us. Through this high priest (Christ, who is God himself – another discussion within itself), our God, unlike many false Gods (the bible says they can’t even feed or cloth themselves), intervenes in our daily lives instead ever changing his creation in our behalf (miracles). One example of this is that God has granted me talent to play this complicated intsrument called a pedal steel just enough that hopefully He recognizes what song I am playing. This is another reason we call Him Saviour.

For further areas of interest, one can study the differences between ALLAH and ABBA!

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Savell Norsworthy
Fessenden SD10/Nashville 400;Fender Telecaster;Alembic Epic Bass/Peavey TNT115 Sheffield
Savell Ministries

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 9 Sep 2004 5:04 am

Rick;
So the whole basis of Christianity is the word of twelve men and given to us through the gospels some forty years later when I don,t suppose there would be too many original `witnesses` around to contradict them. On another point if, as the gospel writers would have us believe, Jesus was(is) the son of god why do Matt:21 and Luke:41 try to prove that through Joseph is a descendant of David?
Tay;
Did all the heretics who refused to recant under the Spanish Inquisition show a total lack of courage?
All the best, everyone.
Arch.[This message was edited by Archie Nicol on 10 September 2004 at 05:11 PM.]

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 9 Sep 2004 5:35 am

Arch - This is a prime example of not looking at all of the information. There were not just 12 witnesses, there were over 500. Many of them were alive at the time the Gospels were written. Even more interesting is that Paul was telling the same story more than 20 years prior to the writing of the Gospels - much closer to the time that the greatest of all miracles happened. Also, don't you find it interesting that even the opponents of Christianity and even the Roman Government in all of their writings NEVER disputed this story? I could go on for hours but you need to read this following link. It is a "trial" of The Resurrection based on HISTORICAL data. CLICK HERE to visit Christustvictor Ministries and view the evidence as viewed by historians. I would also encourage you to spend a few days exploring this site - it can't be done in matter of hours - too much information. Look for the "Discuss This" logo to debate the different topics. I will warn you that this is the website for one of the greatest Apologetics alive today, numerous Best Sellers, has debated Christianity all over the world against leaders from every major faith including all of the ones you mentioned. Greg is also a friend of mine so debating with me would just be debating him because he is my greatest source of real information on the topic of Christianity. Good luck

Don

PS - I would encourage anyone who is skeptical about Jesus and Christianity to spend some time with Greg Boyd's writings.

EDIT: In order to keep this on topic, Greg Boyd is also a pretty good musician. I played in a worship band with him for two years.

EDIT 2; When I said that debating me would be like debating Dr. Boyd I did not mean to imply that I was as knowledgeable as he is. I meant that I would refer to his teachings to research any response I might have.

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

[This message was edited by Don Joslin on 09 September 2004 at 06:40 AM.][This message was edited by Don Joslin on 09 September 2004 at 06:51 AM.]

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 9 Sep 2004 9:17 am

Arch, my friend... and others who may not be Believers yet...

Those disciples began IMMEDIATELY to give witness of their experience with Christ. They didn't wait 40 years! Although these gospels weren't written immediately after the resurrection, the writings emerged out of a church that was growing like wildfire, even in the midst (and partly because)of serious persecution. And why was this happening? Because those early Christians KNEW this story to be true!

Something powerful happened that PROFOUNDLY changed the lives of those men (and women)... and the same thing can happen today. Heck, it happened to me!

All the letters of Paul were written contemporaneously. Matthew Mark and Luke are known as the "synoptic" gospels, because they can be "seen together"... they're obviously closely related. Biblical scholars have determined that Mark (the earliest of the gospels) pretty much relied on the personal remembrances of the disciples and others who had known Jesus, so he was dealing with primary sources. Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source, but they also had access to a source known as "Q" for the German "quelle" which included early material apparently not available to Mark... and they had their own source material. John's gospel is somewhat different, in style and in terms of his timeline, from the synoptics.

There were living witnesses, just as there are plenty of WWII veterans still living today... 50 years after- D-Day. To my knowledge, there's no record of anyone from that time making any assertion that the gospel writers did a bad job of reporting the life of Jesus.

Of course, none of this makes any difference to one who is unwilling to believe. I pray that you won't close your mind and heart.

Joseph was clearly a descendent of David, and was the husband of Mary. He raised Jesus, taught him to be a carpenter, and served as his earthly father. Certainly Jesus' life had to be touched by that connection. My sister has two adopted daughters, but that doesn't diminish her as their mother! It was important to the people of Israel that the Messiah come from the line of David, and here's where the gospel writers (3 of whom were Jews) made that connection.

I respond not in a spirit of argument, but in an effort to give an honest, thoughtful answer to the issues you raise.

Rick[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 09 September 2004 at 10:40 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 9 Sep 2004 10:44 am

I am a Messianic Jew. I believe that Yeshua is HaMoshiach (the Messiah), as prophesied in the Old Testament.

To me, a compelling message is in the first paragraph of the Gospel of Luke. In writing to a man named Theophilos (meaning "lover of God"), Luke states he's writing about what he found "from eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word."

Luke was not a Jew, but he was a physician and therefore relied on empirical evidence. This gospel was one of the most convincing parts of my conversion.
[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 09 September 2004 at 11:51 AM.]

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 9 Sep 2004 3:21 pm

Hi, again everyone. Rick and Don, I appreciate you taking time to give me your opinions, which though reasoned, to me are unreasonable. You accept that a document, written almost 2000 years ago, translated, probably mis-translated a few times to be absolute fact. In the modern era we are all used to seeing video images of historic events, even those which occured before we were born, yet some people deny such evidence,i.e. neo-nazis(Oh, how that pains me to write) and the holocaust. We all, as right thinking humans, know that terrible atrocity actually happened. When there is no video evidence and something seems a bit iffy, we question personal accounts of events, the death of Princess Diana being a prime example. Throughout history people have questioned, except believers in God. They may say they have doubted, but most,(I wonder if through fear), just accept ancient writings as truth. I questioned, using logical thought,I think, and nobody will convince me that there are any Gods. " The quest for god may be likened to a blind man in a darkened room looking for black cat that isn't there"(Anon). I am a great believer in humanity, but recent events in Beslan have me doubting my belief in human worth.
Keep up the good work, Love, Archie and June.
p.s. I still love the music.[This message was edited by Archie Nicol on 18 September 2004 at 04:41 PM.]

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 9 Sep 2004 5:28 pm

Then what is the meaning of life? And why does anything matter?

Arch, the very fact that you identified yourself as "an atheist" tells me that you spend a lot of time thinking about the "god questions". I challenge you to study the Bible, and to read the writings of the great philosophers of religion, like Thomas Aquinas and Augustine... and even C.S. Lewis, a well-known 20th-century intellectual who became a Christian in spite of himself! Of particular interest to you might be his little book "Mere Christianity".

If there's nothing to this, you have nothing to fear. On the outside chance that we're right, you have EVERYTHING to gain. Wouldn't that be cool?

Rick[This message was edited by Rick McDuffie on 09 September 2004 at 06:43 PM.]

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 9 Sep 2004 5:32 pm

Archie: Might you be willing to pass along these logical steps that lead to your conclusion? I understand this thread is long and running out of momentum, yet there may be something to learn for all of us.

Tay Joslin · Post by **Tay Joslin** » 9 Sep 2004 9:12 pm

Archie,
I said what I said out of concern (perhaps even love for my fellow man). You can continue to bring up historical accounts of religious persecution and ethnic genocide, but how does that tie-in to your lack of belief in God Almighty? Don, Rick, and a few others have made a few valid points to consider, but let's get down to the basics. I was raised in a very conservative, scriptually-based home and church. However, my pure and simple upbringing is not the main reason I practice what I preach now that I am a grown man; I do what I do out of tremendous love, respect, and a sense of duty towards God. I have been on my knees many times searching for answers and comfort that only my best friend and Creator could offer. Regardless of what you might consider "unscientific", "unpractical", or "incompetent" when it comes to God, explain to me why you never seem to find a homeless, starving, penniless Christian. That's not to say that needy folks don't believe in God, but by FAITH we are given the essentials we need to live. God never promised that He would bless us with wealth and prosperity; food, clothing, and shelter is ALL we're entitled to. Anything excessive is merely a blessing beyond deservance. God (whether you like this or not) still loves those that deny Him, but as a parent punishes an unruly child, so will God. As far as the Bible being "inconsistent", I cannot find that anywhere. I have read the Bible all of my life, and there is little left to question. However, those of you who rely on another man to interpret the Bible for you are probably still in the dark. Just like politicians, preachers are more often corrupted than not. However, a GOOD preacher will begin his sermon by admitting that he is just a man, that he is apt to make mistakes, and he will encourage you to follow along in your own Bible as he reads the divine truth from his Bible, which should be the interest of all preachers. If a preacher does not encourage you to ask questions and read your Bible with him, he will most likely manipulate you into believing a false doctrine. This might better explain why I feel so strongly about folks who get all-together turned-off by "organized religion". If you own your own Bible (which you should), turn to I Corinthians 14:40; it says, "Let all things be done decently and in order." If there is something about a particular religion that you do not like, chances are it is not decent, nor is it in order. Money is always an issue when it comes to "organized religion". I, too, find it odd that television evangelists always give you their address when asking for a "faith donation" or a "love offering" to be given in the Lord's name. II Peter 2:1 says, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." So, God knows how disgusting some people are when they claim to do things in His name. Also, II Peter 2:9 says, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the Godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." So, obviously, God has plans for people who desecrate His name. I am not a preacher, just an educated Bible enthusiast who believes what I read to be true without blemish or error. Perhaps my remarks come across as crass, but so do yours. The subject of religion will NEVER be a popular one, mainly because those who are confronted on either side of the court have no leg to stand on. Please do not think poorly of me for standing up for what I believe in. Galatians 4:16 says, "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" As I previously mentioned, there are plenty of folks who can quickly turn you off from religion and/or God period; I do not wish to fulfill that role. Galatians 6:3 says, "For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself." I AM NOTHING. Just consider the fact that I approached this matter as tastefully as a man possibly could without making a sincere effort to offend. Believing in God is not hard to do at all once the facts are laid out clearly and the garbage has been filtered-out. I have had the divine privilege of making friends with athiests and agnostics alike, and have had great success in helping them to better understand and appreciate the Bible and its teachings. A religious fanatic could never accomplish that, and telling someone that they are "going to hell" doesn't cut it, either. I am not here to judge, but to educate. Yes, I am a Christian, but I am nobody special. I'll be the first to admit that this entire post has gone way off topic, so count me as guilty. In closing, I'd like to quote my great-grandfather: "Blowing the dust off the Bible is a great way to start cleaning house." Thank you for your time, patience, and consideration.

Yours truly,
Tay Joslin
Newbern, Tennessee
U.S.A.

Rick McDuffie · Post by **Rick McDuffie** » 10 Sep 2004 3:10 am

Is it off-topic? Arch raised the issue of atheism in his original post.

Virtually every response here has been out of care for Archie, and in reponse to that opening statement. No mean-spiritedness or pettiness... just friendly, intelligent debate.

My position is that if there was no God, we wouldn't be here. And, therefore, there would be no music!

Rick

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 10 Sep 2004 4:34 am

You accept that a document, written almost 2000 years ago, translated, probably mis-translated a few times to be absolute fact.

Arch - Again, as a brother and fellow human being, I implore you to visit Dr. Boyd's site. He felt the same was as you so he learned Greek and Hebrew in order to study the original texts and accounts. He approaches this not like a fanatic but as a historian.

As for it being 2000 years old, let me ask you this. Do you believe in the Roman Empire & Ceasar? The evidence of their existence is just as old. And as I said, they never disputed the fact that Jesus rose on the third day.

Herb - I smiled when I read your post. I have a great deal of respect for the traditional aspects of your faith. Welcome to the brotherhood of Christ.

Tay - well said my friend - a bit windy but very well said. Just one bit of advice. Get a new translation for your Bible. That KJV stuff is just too poetic for an old outlaw like me

Even though this is not my thread, I'd like to thank all who have responded. Arch, I hope you understand that this is all out of friendship and love. These people are bound by their faith and a mandate from their Savior to tell this story to the world. Even you stubborn Scotsman

Don

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"When you come to a fork in the road, take it! ~ Yogi Berra

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 10 Sep 2004 6:14 am

Hi, Don, everyone. I have added Dr. Boyd's site to my favourites and will take time to check it out. I feel I am in a minority of one on this subject, but I don't know whether to continue to fight my corner or just agree to disagree because I enjoy reading your comments, even if I disagree with some, okay, most of what you post. Try putting your Bible down and starting from scratch. Our beautiful planet has been around for millions of years. We, in terms of time, are relative newcomers. Science has not come up with an answer as to how we got here or why, but if, as you believe, we were created by a `creator`, remember now, you've put your Bible down, where is the evidence? Science has shown that dinosaurs walked the Earth long before us. So did God create them in his image and upgrade the design until he reached where we are today, or was it it case of species development and natural selection? Thanks for stubborn quote. I'll take it as a compliment.
Again, as a fellow human being, I wish you all the best.
Arch.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 10 Sep 2004 6:26 am

Archie,
Sorry to say, but you are mistaken. Evidently you are quoting from a Book that you have not read. Dinosaurs were not created in God's image. The only thing that was created in God's image was MAN!
If you get started now, you can read through the Bible in about a year. Why don't you do that and then give us a full report. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Scriptures.
Erv[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 10 September 2004 at 07:28 AM.][This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 10 September 2004 at 07:29 AM.]

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 10 Sep 2004 7:06 am

Hi,Erv, you naughty boy. I asked you to put your Bible down. I didn't quote from a book and didn't say God created dinosaurs. I asked if he did. If he(why he?) created us in his image, why don't we all look the same and have the same blood group? Also, I don't believe in ghosts.
Arch.