Steel's coming back to perfect pitch??

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Jun 2006 9:27 am

I did not ask for debates only your opinion.

Opinions only become debates, and then arguments, when someone refuses to accept them graciously. That's why I use phrases like "I feel", "IMHO", and "I think", in my posts.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 18 Jun 2006 10:19 am

What a mess guys!!! give me a E and i do the rest!!!! am i a professional?? no.
but do have a EAR, thats all i need!!!!
farris

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Jun 2006 11:22 am

I've found as close to perfection as I need in the design and mechanics of my ProIII, and my Marrs Retrofit.

I would offer that the lighter the spring pull, the more likely a finger is to not return true. Similarly, strong spring pulls could contribute to over-return. So does changing the spring balance by using different gauge strings than the spring balance was configured for. I ran into this when trying either 22 wounds or plains for the 6th string, and went back to the 020s for good.

Notwithstanding of course Inertia, in which objects in motion tend to stay in motion, as in releasing a pedal with a "snap" which would cause presumably an over-return. For the last 500 or so gigs on my ProIII SB I had to make sure I made the pedal moves deliberately and didn't "feather off" of the pedals.

Disuse of moving parts seems to be a formidable enemy of consistent frictional properties.

Some rigs are jinxed.

Don't forget that if some people purposefully tune their rigs up to 15 cents flat and sharp within the same machine, then if you only have a difference of a few cents, you're home free...

EJL

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 18 Jun 2006 1:02 pm

Well, Eric, some people disregard their ears and tune their thirds as much as 15 cents sharp of the true pitch, just because that's what their store-bought tuner says. If they can get away with that, then we're all home free.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 18 Jun 2006 2:14 pm

Hear Hear Mr Doggett!

I got a pretty good eye opener when I noticed that some of these "ear harmony" tuners tune their specific detunings to a TENTH OF A CENT, and have them programmed into the most expensive digital tuners. They probably write them down inside their guitar cases in case their batteries ever run low..

Incidentally, on the Electronics Forum I noted that my "trusted" GT12 Korg recently started fluctuating. I noticed it the night that it happened. Since I had never had a prior electronic tuner failure, I wrote it off and just tuned by ear til I could check it.

I got it home and tested my guitars on it. The new G&L registered 15-20 cents flat on all the Cs, sharp on all the G#s C#s and a bunch of others. All the way up and down all the fretboards on all my fenders.

I plugged in my previous DT3 and they all registered perfectly.

I threw the GT12 in the garbage can and went down to GC and bought a new Boss 15. Worked perfectly.

Last night I played a gig with my favorite guitar player in Portland at the largest paying venue here and tested it. In line, when I hit hard sustaining notes and octaves to my ear, and right next to the "guitar intonation" Tele I've played against for many years, every note I hit was dead on when I looked down at the easily seeable "arrow display". I like this Boss 15. Easy to see, and it registers all the notes. No added signal when "in line" either.

It's really hard to teach pigs to sing, and a degree harder I've found to try to suggest that if players "play strictly TO what they hear" here's what you are going to get:

A player/listener with a perfect, or superb ear comes in to hear you play. The guitar is sharp, the fiddle is flat, and the singer is sharp on the solo notes and flat on the harmonies.

You play to your OWN tone center, and if you need a tuner to remind you to make note of which places you are severly different from what the other goofballs are playing it doesn't hurt to look at it from time to time..

You ask your "visiting listener" what he thinks about the "tuning".

He or she tells you, "It sounds good enough overall, but I can tell that YOU are the ONLY one that's "In Tune".

Second scene.

You play to the tone center of the same band, and follow "your ears" depending on who you're playing with.

You ask your visiting listener the same question.

The answer:

"You were just as out of tune as whatever instrument you were trying to play with, and since you're really good, sometimes your were sharp and flat at the same time.."

I don't know how many time I have said that in a live band situation, unless a person develops THEIR OWN TONE CENTER, they are at the mercy of the other instruments on the bandstand.

In the case of a purported Just Intonation Player, then they self admittedly have to wait for the "ET" intervals on the piano, well tuned and intoned guitar, glockenspiel, vibes, marimba, concert harp, or ocarina before they can adjust by ear, their intonation.

SOooo...

Now there is this school within a school that will now argue whether it is best to play "Straight Up Just Intonation" or "Some P****** Variation".

I will be content to let them belittle, argue, condescend toward each other.

I've sated my desire for such, and am now, as before secure in my tone center such as I have developed it over 50 years on various instruments, and about 28 on the Pedal Steel.

I still find piano music, and classical guitar ( Pre Buzz Feiten) to be the most soothing to my ear. SSM..

As always, Mr Doggett, I appreciate your queries, and get a kick out of your abilities to paint pictures morphing factoids to assumptions, and then to semi-accurate conclusions. Somehow I think going "point by point" through them noting where the "freezing point" is reached would somehow be queering a masterpiece, forgive the phrase..

I don't mind, sharing my hard earned experiences, and actually the more famous the person who insults me or condescends is, or thinks they are, the more I realise how glad I am that I played it all myself for many long and successful years after, of course, some lessons from a real good teacher.

I never mind sharing my opinions, or off the cuff observations, either on the bandstand at breaks, or on the internet forum as I have time. I always refund cover charges for my friends at my weekly live gigs, don't ask for tips, and type on the internet Pro Bono, for better or...

EJL

PS: Mr D. I am very thankful that I have been allowed to play long enough to develop a tune center that I am secure in. An added blessing is that I have also been able to do this independent of "wobbles" that tend to drive either neophites, or even some 'seasoned professionals' to the point of distraction, even within their own instrument before trying to match the wobbles of those tuning differently or obviously sour.

It didn't happen in a couple years in a basement, a pristine recording studio, or on stage with the best musicians in the world, that's for sure.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 18 June 2006 at 03:35 PM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 19 Jun 2006 9:22 am

I still find piano music, and classical guitar ( Pre Buzz Feiten) to be the most soothing to my ear. SSM..

It's too bad Andres Segovia, Julian Bream and Eliot Fisk had to pump out all of that out-of-tune dreck before Mr. Feiten came along and 'fixed' the guitar. If their guitars hadn't been so crippled, function-wise, maybe they could've amounted to something....

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 19 Jun 2006 11:54 am

I still think not to many people really unstood what i'm asking. I was wondering if anyone has a steel that come back to the exact same pitch while tuning up if you keep checking the tuning before you start playing. I know that they will change some then, or atleast you would think they will. Like i said the peterson Companys book i read one time where it said their strob tuners do not vary. I believe Charlie Ward told a guy with steels having rivets in the changer and different things similar they cant hardly be real exact, I think this is how Charlie said it. I will correct if i find out different. I think it would be nice if they came back the same every time, Then you wouldn't see people fine TUNING at times, RIGHT??? GS[This message was edited by Gary Steele on 19 June 2006 at 12:56 PM.]

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 19 Jun 2006 2:35 pm

Gary here's what i find kinda funny . Some players will stand on their word that their steel doesn't need any tuning even after they play it all night and then put it in the case and take it out for the next gig and it wont need any tuning at all . HOW MANY times have you heard this one ? Or they have the only guitar that they have ever heard that has ''That Sound '' ? Or the temperature doesn't effect my guitar at all !!!!!!!! I know i have rubbed someone the wrong way but i really didn't mean to it's just that i'm tired of hearing these guys talk so foolish and expect everyone to fall for that . Just my own openion thats all . Gary .

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 19 Jun 2006 2:56 pm

Gary i have to agree.
Gary.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 Jun 2006 6:07 pm

Gary, I'm sorry for my part in hijacking your thread.

To answer your question from the point of a guy that's done a few thousand live paid gigs, and of course I'm one of many, and many have played many more...

It depends on a lot of things. Temperature, how hard you played the last set, newer strings, a bugger or string end stuck in a changer or between two springs. Could even be the phase of the moon..

Sometimes I would come to work and find my steel higher or lower than I'd left it the night before, sometimes it would really stay in tune all night. Sometimes I have to hit it a time or two, and a lot of times I don't even look at my tuner if all the instruments seem to be on the same page.

I don't think anything does anything perfectly.

If anything happens poorly on a consistent basis, it's time to get input here or elsewhere about what it might be, and fix it.

Some guitars seem to be jinxed.

Thank god I've never owned one that was.

Again, my apologies.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 20 June 2006 at 11:48 AM.]

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 19 Jun 2006 6:17 pm

I think Eric put it best, if I might sum it up in my words, There's no such thing as a "perfect guitar",just some are closer than others. And that is entirely subjective to what one might recognise as important to that individual who likes it, owns it, and plays it. If it does what you want, and is pleasing to your ear, then it's a good guitar. They ALL require some adjustment. The question is "how much" adjustment. So, don't quit until you find THAT guitar. Bobbe's gotta make a livin', too!

[This message was edited by James Morehead on 20 June 2006 at 07:57 PM.]

Lynette Richards · Post by **Lynette Richards** » 20 Jun 2006 6:10 am

To answer your question.

"A new Mullen"

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 20 Jun 2006 10:46 am

i think i'll go fishin. whaduya think.

Gary Steele · Post by **Gary Steele** » 20 Jun 2006 12:52 pm

CLOSE IT UP! Dont need any one feeling picked on or anything like that.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 20 Jun 2006 1:46 pm

Nothin' like a guitar that tunes good.[This message was edited by James Morehead on 20 June 2006 at 07:59 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 20 Jun 2006 1:55 pm

Gary, a good meter can detect tuning changes from simply laying your hands on the strings and warming them up. New strings stretch. Even old strings stretch a little after bending all night. If you press on the string between the nut and the tuning key, the pitch will change enough for a meter to notice. A cool breeze or a hot light on the strings will change them. These things happen on all guitars, no matter how good the instrument is. Then there are mechanical issues like overshoot and undershoot after raising or lowering a string. Tuning keys can slip, etc., etc. These will be worse on some guitars and better on others.

I don't think anyone is foolish, but I think some people don't measure as carefully as others. In the world I live in, strings don't stay in tune forever on any guitar, and they don't last forever without breaking.

------------------
Student of the Steel: Zum uni, Fender tube amps, squareneck and roundneck resos, tenor sax, keyboards

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 20 Jun 2006 2:33 pm

mr. gary preston has 2 of the best sho-buds that i have ever seen. one that i think he bought brand new. a ldg that is like brand new. he knows sho-buds probably like anyone that knows sho-buds. his stay in tune probably just as good as anyones. but when he is playing he will tweak one hear and there because his ear tells him to. but that is i think when you play so long you get use to that. me i am still wet behind the ears. i started about 1 and 1/2 years ago and i can hear when a string needs tuned but mostly i am not where i am supposed to be with the bar. so tuners have there place but so does the old ear. my 2 bent pennies. theres no need for anyone here to get all bent out of shape because of the thoughts of others. doesn't help the topic or help gary see what others think.

Jimmie Martin · Post by **Jimmie Martin** » 20 Jun 2006 2:44 pm

go to jeff newmans site and read tone be or not tone be. theres the answer to a lot of questions today. might not help this topic real well but maybe it will help it some.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 21 Jun 2006 4:50 am

Hey Jimmie, I think about you and smile every day, for the Shobud Professional you sold me, and the super refinish job you did on that cabinet. You-de-man!! What a beautiful finish! But, I don't think anyone is "foolish" either. By the way, did I mention this guitar stays in tune very well?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Jun 2006 6:52 am

Some players will stand on their word that their steel doesn't need any tuning even after they play it all night and then put it in the case and take it out for the next gig and it wont need any tuning at all . HOW MANY times have you heard this one ?

Well, I don't know about that, but I do know that my new MSA is the most stable guitar (tuning-wise) that I've ever played. The last two steel jams I played required no tuning on my part. Am I saying the guitar tuning was "perfect"? No. What I am saying is that, by my own ears, it sounded plenty good, and I don't screw around with something that don't need fixin'. I'd tuned it the night before, and that was good enough. Call me a liar if you please, I frankly don't give a hoot.

Of course, if you're playing an older guitar that has loose keys, or a lot of "slop" in the action, it will require more tuning, that's just common sense. Also, if you guitar has an older case, or that doesn't fit it properly, that leads to more problems with tuning. Can you see any marks in the case from the tuning keys? If you can, that means that when you transport the guitar that there's a chance that the tuning keys are being moved by rubbing against the lining of the case.

One thing's for certain, I've seen some players that tune or tweak between every flippin' song. Conversely, I've seen some play for an hour and only have to touch up maybe one or two strings, on one or two occasions. Am I saying that this is due more to the player...or to the guitar?

Probably a little of both. [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 21 June 2006 at 01:02 PM.]

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 21 Jun 2006 10:30 am

Well said, Mr. Hinson.