Mandolin question

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 18 Apr 2009 8:35 am

Slightly off topic: Try this if you feel like experimenting some time: Take a 12 string, tune it to an E major chord, but tune one of the strings in the 3rd course to G# and the other to B.

You get some interesting results, some usable, some not.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 18 Apr 2009 10:03 am

Darryl Hattenhauer wrote:...He uses the trapeze tailpieces a lot more on his long-scale instruments, so they must be better for higher tension, right?
...

Instruments with a tailpiece take most of the tension on the tail of the body, and there's not much weight on the bridge, as the tension is mostly downwards, into the instrument. Instruments with a fixed bridge and no tailpiece take the entire tension on the top, and there's an enormous twisting force on the bridge, which would tear the top off unless you had strong internal bracing. The tone of the mandolin depends on it having a tailpiece, to the extent that if the instrument were made like a classical guitar it would no longer be a mandolin, it would be a mandora, and would sound like a small lute.

A good example of this is the old Stella 12-string guitar, as played by Leadbelly, which had a tailpiece. Compare this with a Gibson 12-string, which is basically a normal 6-string flat top with extra bracing, and you will notice that the tone is completely different. If you took that same Gibson 12-string, and fitted a floating bridge and a tailpiece, it would sound terrible, because the body and internal bracing are designed around the top being flexed by a twisting motion, and the floating bridge would only impart vertical vibrations.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 18 Apr 2009 11:40 am

If you took that same Gibson 12-string, and fitted a floating bridge and a tailpiece, it would sound terrible,

You're right. I had one 40 years ago, it it wasn't as good.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 18 Apr 2009 4:18 pm

Alan Brookes wrote:... the old Stella 12-string guitar, as played by Leadbelly...

In case anybody is interested, Del Arte is reissuing these.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 19 Apr 2009 10:48 am

Mike Perlowin wrote:...In case anybody is interested, Del Arte is reissuing these.

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/revi ... tring/10/1
That's interesting. I understand that Leadbelly used a Stella 12-string because there wasn't much selection of 12-strings at the time and he bought it second hand. I wouldn't pay premium prices for a reproduction of a budget guitar. I have ten twelve-string guitars, and to my mind the best are from Eko and Guild, followed by Martin and Gibson. I also like the Craviola, and I have a nylon-strung 12-string made by a luthier in Barcelona, which I keep tuned like a lute, as it stays in tune better than a lute and I don't get stuck with the old mediæval maxim, "He who playeth the lute for fifty years endureth five and forty years in tuning thereof."

Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 4:44 pm

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Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 4:46 pm

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Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 4:48 pm

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Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 4:50 pm

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Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 4:53 pm

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Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 4:54 pm

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Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 4:57 pm

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Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 4:59 pm

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Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 5:01 pm

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Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 5:03 pm

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Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 19 Apr 2009 7:11 pm

This is becoming one of the best posts on the Forum.

Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 7:33 pm

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Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 19 Apr 2009 7:40 pm

This is becoming one of the best posts on the Forum

It is indeed.

Michael, you are always an astounding resource. Now I'm off to the Finegold/Kinnard site, and I haven't even tried Mike Perlowin's 12 string tuning yet.

Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 19 Apr 2009 7:47 pm

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Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 19 Apr 2009 8:14 pm

That Dell Arte 12-string, being a small-run craftsman instrument, probably sounds a whole lot better than the original mass-produced Stella model.

One thing that it won't bring out is the Leadbelly sound as we hear it on disk, which is partly a creation of the primitive drive systems on the old recording equipment, which introduced wow and flutter into the recordings. You can hear the same effect in contemporary recordings of Woody Guthrie, Cisco Houston, Jimmie Rodgers and the Carter Family.

Scott Thomas · Post by **Scott Thomas** » 19 Apr 2009 9:22 pm

Alan Brookes wrote:That Dell Arte 12-string, being a small-run craftsman instrument, probably sounds a whole lot better than the original mass-produced Stella model.

Spend some time over on the AGS guitar forum and search for discussions on repro Stella 12 strings, and you'll find these mentioned a lot:
http://www.hauverguitars.com/auditorium.html
http://www.fraulini.com/leadbelly.html

I haven't played them, but the consensus is that they are far better than the Dell'Arte.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 19 Apr 2009 11:48 pm

All the reissues have only 12 frets. Don't any of these guys make a 14 fret one?

Michael Lee Allen · Post by **Michael Lee Allen** » 20 Apr 2009 6:36 am

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Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 20 Apr 2009 6:56 am

What you sa makes sense. And I think it's a good sign that there are players today who are inteested in artists like Leadbelly and want to learn to play that style.

But personally I don't want a guitar that's a one trick pony. I want my instruments to be as versatile as possible. I want to be able to play a Reverend Gary Davis finger picking tune AND a Doc Watson flat picking instrumental, (as if I could play like either of those guys) without having to switch guitars.

This is my late 70s vintage Washburn Monterey. I actually swapped a Martin 12 string for it. The martin was worth a lot more money, but I felt at the time, and still feel I got the better guitar.

It is one of the most versatile guitars I've ever seen. It sounds just right playing any kind of acoustic music, from blues to bluegrass to whatever.

Jan Viljoen · Post by **Jan Viljoen** » 13 Apr 2014 4:49 am

Hi Guys,

I see that Alan Brookes is an old mandolin builder and he gives a lot of info.

Here is my locally built mandolin which I am going to play in May at our local semi finals folk music competition.

It is a Monteleone copy.
The scratchplate is made of African Blackwood and the trussrod cover is Warthog tusk.

I will also post under another topic where we show our bands. I play a different electric mandolin there.