Which is hardest to play, Pedal steel or not ?

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 30 Oct 2006 1:30 am

Lets see what you all think is the hardest to play and why.

6 string, 8 string, twin, triple, quad, pedal and in what format i.e. C6/E9, 12 string Universal or ?
Just what are your perceptions of the hardest or most difficult to play.
Baz

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basilh · Post by **basilh** » 30 Oct 2006 1:32 am

Brad, PLEASE leave this in the No Peddlers section, as it's their views I'm looking for.[This message was edited by basilh on 30 October 2006 at 01:32 AM.]

Ian Finlay · Post by **Ian Finlay** » 30 Oct 2006 3:33 am

I'll bite...

the hardest one is the one I don't know. So for me, anything E9 (any number of strings/pedals/knees) or modern C6 with too many strings

Also, string spacing seems important to me on 6 string and steel.

Ian

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 30 Oct 2006 3:59 am

I'll take the opposite, the easiest is the 6 string lap in A Major, everything else is a monster!!!! Geo

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 30 Oct 2006 4:48 am

It's just that I think there's a misconception amongst lap steel players that the pedal steel is "The Easy Way to Go"
and that the refinements of lap steel technique are by far more difficult to master than the playing of a pedal steel.

I'm not explaining myself very well, but in a nutshell, I think there's a general view that pedal steel is "cheating' in some way and lap steel is harder to master.

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 30 Oct 2006 5:04 am

I consider PSG to be a totally different instrument. The tones that one attempts to achieve are different, the differences in technique and approach make it fairly obvious which is which. I have declined to add PSG to my repertoire up to this point purely because the players I most respect are those who stuck with non-pedal and have become very distinctive stylists as a result. As to difficulty, I am sure that after a period to get used to the changes a PSG might be easier to play without making a ton of errors due to the precise tuning of the pedal pulls, and slants are a real challenge (2 years + and I have not come close to mastering them) but I don't think you could call either instrument easier; they have different challenges, and require different approaches. The non-pedal is far more difficult in terms of mastering your hand technique, slants and finding intervals without pedals. PSG requires theory and developing an intuition about what the changes will do, especially if one wants to be a good improviser. I can think of half a dozen PSG players that I can hear real iprovisation from... whereas once you have the mechanics of the non-pedal down improv seems effortless, or at least lot easier.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Oct 2006 8:10 am

Well, the bottom line is it's all the same. We are all chasing the standards set by life-time professional virtuosos. They push any instrument to its limits, and it is very difficult for amateurs and less talented pros to chase those outer limits. The state of the art sounds we are chasing on lap and pedal steel are different, but equally difficult, because that are each the furthest limits able to be achieved by lifetime virtuosos.

But ignoring that, some instuments are more difficult than others for playing basic scales and melodies, with a little harmony. Steel guitar is a funny instrument in that all notes are not equally easy to get, in fact, some are near impossible. Except for the minor difference between white and black keys, all the notes of the chromatic scale are equally easy to hit (I play piano), and the same is true for most horns (I play sax). But a steel guitar only has the strings for a chord or two, not even the whole scale, much less the chromatic scale. Of course, for single string stuff you can move the bar to different frets. But moving the bar and your whole hand and arm is way less efficient than tickling the keys with your fingers. And if you want to add some harmony it gets very complicated fast. You end up using slants, nonintuitive string combinations. And you might have to move down the neck for a higher inversion, or up the neck for a lower one.

People might think that no pedals and fewer strings are easier, because there are fewer complicated choices - and maybe they are attempting simpler stuff. But to play a complicated melody, with accidentals, and complicated harmony and progressions is easier with additional strings, pedals and levers. It's not cheating if it allows you to do more stuff easier. So if you know how to use it, it is easier to play complicated stuff with the extra strings, pedals and levers. But because of all the choices, it seems more complicated to learn at first. So the answer is yes and no and maybe.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 30 Oct 2006 8:30 am

My decision not to play pedals is partly esthetic. I mostly don't like what I've heard out of pedal guitars. I mostly love what I've heard out of nonpedal guitars. The other part is practical. All that stuff to haul around and set up and tear down. Hooooeeeeee! Who needs it. Give me a single neck lap steel with no legs any time. I havent' decided on number of strings yet. Narrower string spacing is tougher for me right now. But I think it's a matter of what I'm acustomed to.

Mike Fried · Post by **Mike Fried** » 30 Oct 2006 12:20 pm

I consider lap and pedal steel to be as different as classical and electric guitar (no other analogies between them are implied, though). I find it somewhat easier to project a distinctive "voice" on lap steel, I guess due to its increased emphasis on the left hand, although I'm somewhat more comfortable "winging it" on pedal steel most of the time. Non-players seem to be more impressed with someone having mastered the mechanics of pedal steel, but in reality I think non-pedal is more demanding to play at the same level. I think anyone taking up steel guitar should spend a good deal of time on non-pedal before getting into pedals (I didn't, and I think my chops suffer for it).

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http://myspace.com/drfried

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 30 Oct 2006 2:20 pm

same as mike...i'm comfortable winging anything on pedal steel, but 6 string lap steel scares the heck out of me...that's what makes me appreciate the bobby blacks of the world...he sounds better than me on pedal on his D-8 rick or whatever he's using.

Jeff Au Hoy · Post by **Jeff Au Hoy** » 30 Oct 2006 3:56 pm

Pedal steel must be harder because I don't hear a lot of smooth players on that instrument. Maybe those guys rely too much on their feet.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 30 Oct 2006 4:03 pm

I agree with Mike to, and i will go a step further. I think the reason more guys do not play non pedal, is because it is so challeneging. They are just two different things. It's where your heart is i guess. You know, nothing is more beautiful sounding to me, the the haunting sounds of great non pedal steel. Now i must admit, that i play 99% pedal steel because it is what i am asked to do. But to sit back in my recliner, put on the head phones and just relax, JB, Herb Remmington, Reece Andersen on non pedal is my choice. I admire you fella's that can play these straight steels so beautifully. And i ask, PLEASE, don't let this art form, and part of our heritage slip away.

Dom Franco · Post by **Dom Franco** » 30 Oct 2006 11:08 pm

I'd say pedal steel is much harder to master, but much easier to fool the public with.

After 40+ years I am almost to the point that I really "feel" the lap steel. In six string A6th tuning, I am very comfortable and I can sing the notes as I play them. Old jazz players used to call this "blowin" the instrument.

I have become so familiar with the scales that I can play what I want when I want.

Not so with the Pedal Steel!!! I haven't got the faintest Idea what notes I am playing on any fret with this pedal and that knee lever engaged. I can play pretty well, but it's all just smoke and mirrors. Licks that I know will work in any key by moving the bar to that scale position.

To me the chord possibilites are endless, and it is mind boggling to try to memorize where all the notes are with pedal changes!!!

Just my oppinion.

Dom

Pete Blakeslee · Post by **Pete Blakeslee** » 31 Oct 2006 5:12 am

Every steeler, pedal or no, at some time is going to be asked: "Is that instrument hard to play?" The correct answer, regardless of instrument, is "It is easy to play, but hard to play well."

Pete Blakeslee

Lynn Oliver · Post by **Lynn Oliver** » 31 Oct 2006 9:07 am

"It is easy to play, but hard to play well."

I might change that to say, "It is hard to master but easy to play."

I just finished a book called, "This is Your Brain on Music" where the author suggests that it takes about 10,000 hours of practice to master any instrument.

I figure once you have mastered an instrument it is then easy for you to play; at that point it is all about making music, not so much about the technical difficulties in playing the instrument.

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Lynn Oliver

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 31 Oct 2006 11:13 am

Non pedal is harder for me. With a PSG I can build more houses with less real estate.

NP (for me) required more real estate for one floor plan.
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Matt
<img width=80 src=http://mywebsite.register.com/db2/00180 ... CN0205.JPG>

[This message was edited by Matt Rhodes on 31 October 2006 at 11:54 AM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 31 Oct 2006 4:24 pm

I've heard pedal steel players say they can't play non pedal, but I think it's mostly because they haven't tried to. Everything is hard to me at first untill I study it and apply it.

The lastest issue of "Guitar Player Mag ,pg 99 " has an interview with a young woman by the name of Kaki King. She is a guitarist in her 20's who has opened some shows for Robert Randolf and David Lindley. She says she started on lap steel and played alot on it untill she got confident, then started on pedal steel. Her take on pedal steel is it's all about your feet and kness and lap steel is completely dependant on your left-hand technique. Good to see younger musicians talking and playing steel along with their guitar playing.

Ron Victoria · Post by **Ron Victoria** » 31 Oct 2006 6:28 pm

As a lap player, I really admire the pedalers and think psg is harder. Besides doing the foot and knee, you also have the volume pedal. Just my .02.

Ron

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 2 Nov 2006 6:08 pm

I think pedal steel is harder, because everything you can play without pedals you can play with pedals by just keeping your feet off. The pedals add complication. You need to master non-pedals before you start pedals.

I played non-pedal for 40 years, mainly in open E, A or G, before buying a pedal instrument. I have to admit it was mainly economics. I could build a lap steel myself for next to nothing, as I did many times, but the cost of a pedal steel to someone living in Birmingham, England, was out of this world, even if you could find one, so I had to make do. I once built a pedal steel in 1974, but the mechanism was mainly wood and I couldn't keep it in tune, so I threw the pedals away. Later I took up C6. Right now my favorites are C6 and E9, and I keep open G for the Dobro or Weissenborn. I've put all my lap steels into storage, and I just use a ShoBud Crossover nowadays in C6 and E9. I rarely use the pedals on C6, but almost always on E9.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 2 Nov 2006 7:35 pm

If you're a decent guitar player and can handle a slide, I think psg is easier to play initially. Check out Carter Guitar's E9 Tuning Demystified for Standard Guitar Players. They're both pretty damn hard to master though.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 3 Nov 2006 1:08 pm

I have fellow jam friend who plays 12 string pedal ( 9/5) and has a terrible time trying to get anything out of my D8. The D8’s string spacing kills him but even more of an obstacle for him is getting the same chords using nothing but the bar that he does with his pedals and levers. Naturally he has a greater chord range using his pedals; however, with some playing around and improvising, I can get most of the same chords with my bar on the D8. ( I think a D10 non-pedal would give me most of those missing chords)

All in all, I think it is which style you learned to play on.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Nov 2006 11:33 am

I don't think that one is harder than the other, but then I've been playing both for a very long time. The two instruments have different challenges. Some musical passages are more difficult without pedals, but using pedals correctly can be every bit as hard as a well-executed bar slant.

I think that people are more impressed by easy things on the pedal steel, and that the effort expended by a good non-pedal player is often lost on the audience. That's a real pity, in my opinion.

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Randy Reeves · Post by **Randy Reeves** » 13 Nov 2006 1:24 pm

for me pedal steel is like drumming. I can do neither because I cant get my feet and hands to do different things at the same time.
I have plenty with my lap steel. foot tapping, right hand picking and muting, and the left hand doing the rest.
it is plenty.
I have a real appreciation for PSG players. Ive watched them move all four appendages at the same time producing the most sonorous tones imaginable.

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 13 Nov 2006 6:45 pm

I'll put my 2nd two-bits in on the subject, after I've seen the other comments. As most of you know, I'm an older guy and have been playing only non-pedal for many years. When I've been at parties playing, there have been several instances when PSGers have said "I don't see how you get all those sounds without pedals"!!! And so I guess what seems so simple to me is difficult for others. The only time in my life that I've sat behind a PSG is to have my picture taken in the RCA studio in Nashville where they had some stuff there for looks.

And one final observation about PSG: I've been typing (using the correct fingers) since I was in junior high, back in 1950. So, I consider myself a half decent typist. Playing the PSG would be the same to me as somebody changing the keys around on the keyboard. Press this key, now it's an F, next strike it's a Q!!! That type of a situation. Like someone else mentioned, I'm amazed at what some folks can do on a PSG. Geo

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 13 Nov 2006 7:59 pm

I think a lot of pedal players would have to stop and think about which notes are where within a given position and combination of pedals and levers. That's because they tend to think in intervals,inversions and key centers in a way that makes an absolute roadmap of the notes somewhat irrelevant - especially on E9.
I personally think pedals are MUCH easier.When I try to do what I can do w/pedals on my Stringmaster,it takes 3 necks in 3 keys with 3 sets of immovable string layouts and a lot of jumping around the neck and everything's still a compromise.I feel like a one-armed man doing the best he can to tie his shoes. But when I take it on it's own terms and learn something from the ground up that's designed to be played within the limitations of a fixed tuning,it can be real satisfying to express or even imply extensions,altered chords,voice leading and harmony in the smallest possible musical chunks.There's a real art to that and it ain't easy.