What tone difference is there between a SD-10 and a S-10?

[Kirk Eipper]

Does anyone know if there is any significant difference in tone, sustain etc. between 2 identical guitars, one built on a double cabinet vs. one built on a single cabinet?


Thanks Much

[Larry Strawn]

Kirk,
I wouldn't think there would be any difference in tone, none that I could detect anyway. JMO

I've had both, single and double body and preffer the double body for comfort reasons only, I seem to fit under them a little better.

Larry

[b0b]

There is a slight tone difference between any two instruments, but I don't think that either one would sound better on the basis of cabinet size alone. If it's the same brand, same pickups, same month of manufacture - I doubt that most people could hear any difference.

The SD-10 models are popular for reasons of comfort, not tone.

[J D Sauser]

Two mayor builders have told me that they felt that it was more difficult to have a single neck body guitar sound good over a double neck body guitar.

One builder even told me once that, while most of their guitars sounded good, just as now and then a "dog" would come of the assembly line, an exceptional one would roll out... one day, much to the surprise of so many it was a single neck-single body.


I think it's also a mater or perceptions. I for one, prefer the sound of a single neck guitar.

... J-D.

[Brad Malone]

Kirk, There is also a middle way to go and that is a S10Wide Body. My D-10 Mullen is 10&7/16' wide and my S10WB Williams is 8&4/16 wide, a difference of 2&3/16 inches..the leg stance is the same on both Steels...the Williams has great stability and great tone. The Williams also has thicker end plates than the Mullen 3/16 thick on the sides and 5/16 on the front and back versus 1/16 on the Mullen...hope this helps...I can only talk about the guitars I own...results may be different for other Steels.

[Chris LeDrew]

There seems to be a perception that an SD-10 is somehow a more "professional" guitar than an S-10. I'm not sure why this is the case. SD-10's are more expensive due to the bigger body, pad material/assembly, etc. But they certainly offer nothing more in playing possibilities, besides the SD-10's capacity for varying placement of the levers - which is merely a physical issue.

I will never, never understand why an LDG is sometimes as much as $1,000 more than a Pro 1. I played a few square-bodied LDG's and they sounded no better to me than a square-bodied Pro 1. What is more professional about an LDG? I've talked to several older players who remember when a single-neck guitar was considered a toy, even if it had 3+4, while an LDG was considered a more Pro guitar. Strange. It's only in the last couple of years that I have seen Pro 1's being used by steel players in major acts on television, etc.

The only reason I can see for the varying prices between a Pro 1 and an LDG were their original configurations. The LDG came factory with two more knees than a Pro 1. However, many Pro II's only came from the factory with two knees, so the E9 capabilities were as limited as the Pro 1 on many 'Bud D-10's. Beats me.

[Ken Thompson]

I can't speak to the tone since I have never compared them. But since the thread has morphed a bit into value I will just say this. I personally do no like the looks of a pad on the guitar. To me it devalues the look of a fine musical instrument. I have passed on buying another S10 many times because I did not want the pad. I do prefer the added lip, for lack of a better word, that is on the Carter S10 as opposed to the smaller body of some of the them.

[Brad Malone]

Hey Ken, I felt the same as you about the pad. You can get the S10WB Williams with the pad or without it..on the S10WB the pad is only 2&1/2 inches wide. After giving it some thought, I went with the pad and now I'm really glad I did because it adds a lot of comfort to the right hand...and because it is only 2&1/2 inches wide it does not detract from the beauty of the Steel IMHO...maybe some other players can chime in on how they feel about the pad. I do not like the looks of the wide pad on the SD10's but then again I never played an SD10..so I'm only going on looks and not actual experience....the pad on my Williams cost me $40 extra and IMHO is well worth the price.

[Chris LeDrew]

I received this comprehensive and informative discourse from Lloyd Green concerning the origins of the SD-10 this morning, as well as his permission to share it with you all:

Hi Chris,
Every so often I feel compelled to explain the origins of the LDG.
Now, you're an intelligent fellow so embrace for the moment the idea that there must be logical or sentimental reasons for the escalating price of LDGs.
In 1972 when I first had the brainchild for such a steel had one surveyed the landscape no comparable steel would have been found. In fact when I first approached Shot and David Jackson with the idea of removing the C6th neck from my Baldwin D-10 Shot said I was crazy, it would ruin the steel and it's value; nobody would want a D-10 frame with one neck on it!
He offered to build me any type of single neck I wanted, or anything else. Since Pete Drake and I were the only two "name" players who stayed with Sho-Bud to the end our needs were always met.
I wanted the same general configuration and feel of the instrument which I had always had, and that meant a double neck frame for comfort, stability, looks, esthetics and I felt at the time (but subsequently changed my mind) a bit deeper and rounder sound because of the additional wood and construct.
Besides, the removed parts weighed 18 pounds which was to my advantage, but mainly the C6th tuning was considered by the record producers to be "old-fashioned (due to the inherent 6ths & 7ths of the tuning) unless we were recording a Western Swing tune, and out of 500-600 session a year I was using the C6th on not more than 7 or 8 songs. So the idea for the LDG was practical and pragmatic. In fact Shot had one of the Sho-Bud employees put the plastic bag containing the 18 lbs. of discarded parts in a file cabinet saying, "Lloyd will be back in 2 or 3 days wanting it put back together". I never had a second thought about my decision and in fact within days steel players were coming by the various studios I was recording in to see this new kind of steel.
Within weeks players were coming from other parts of the country to see it and Sho-Bud began getting requests to build one like mine.
Well, in about 3 months Shot called me one day and suggested my formerly "crazy" idea might have possibilities as a Sho-Bud model. So I went from being out of my mind to genius, all in one quarter of a year.
We finally reached a financial agreement for royalties and decided on LDG for the model name. I told David Jackson who was actually running the day to day operations by that time to use D for the middle initial (my middle name being Lamar) and he could tell people it stood for his name and I would claim it meant Dot, my wife then, and now. Nobody lost in that decision.
Sho-Bud had never incorporated another steelers name since the origin of the company with Buddy Emmons, so they did this with a certain uneasiness and deliberation. There has never been another Sho-Bud model with anyone else's name.
The model quickly became a big seller because it seemed like such a practical idea , not only to me, but to many players around the world. Once the Eagles bought one for use in their shows and it sat on stage visible to their huge audiences of the 1970s, the sales sky-rocketed.
When Baldwin bought the reminder of Sho-Bud it was only after I had signed a much more lucrative contract and become part of the transaction. They, in fact, sent a corporate jet from Cincinnati with three vice-presidents who wined and dined Dot and me one evening prior to the sale along with my new contract to stay with Sho-Bud which I signed after a long evening of good wine, food and conversation.
I've continued to play my LDG, the very first one built (May 9th, 1973), from the day it was finished, having used it on more than 5,000 sessions before I retired and hundreds more since I resumed recording about 5 years ago.
It is almost impossible for any rational, intelligent person to think any other steel could have been on as many records as this one, yet there is one Nashville steeler who has publicly tried to do so and really looked foolish in addition to losing my friendship.
Soon, all of the other steel builders started building a padded model and it has now become an accepted transition model between a single and double-neck. Unfortunately neither I, nor Sho-Bud, patented this idea.
In summation, I suppose it is the combination of all these elements, and more which I haven't talked about, which have woven their way into the collective psyche of steel guitar enthusiasts and earned it's place in steel guitar history that accounts for the LDGs surge in prices. After all my idea and steel was the first and will remain so and you won't find any "copy" models from other manufacturers that have kept pace with such price increases. I have been offered an astronomical price for this steel by a wealthy European but it will never be sold during my lifetime at any price. Fortunately I don't need the money so the temptation to sell was avoided.
For the record my LDG is all original with the exception of one connector to the 3rd floor pedal to make the tuning of that one pedal more accurate, plus my pick-up is now a Lawrence-710 rather than my original single coil 18,000 ohm Sho-Bud which I still have and will reinstall once my session days are finished this time. Additionally, my steel has a 24 1/2" scale, one of only the first 8 built to have that dimension. It was also the first to have nylon tuners which were about a year away from becoming part of all Sho-Bud steels. For the remainder of 1973 all LDGs still had the barrel tuning system.
I hope this bit of history of that model helps you, and others, understand a little more clearly the mystique of this simple, quaint little model and the possible reason it still resonates and increases in value.I wasn't trying to create a new model steel for the world when I came up with the idea decades ago, but merely to make my recording job a little easier and less distracting by removing that neck since I can and could play anything I visualize on my LDG steel.

Best regards,
Lloyd Green

[Larry Strawn]

Chris,
Thanks for posting Mr. Greens reply conserning the LDG, I believe that tells it all.

Some day when my finances will permit, and I find the one I want I will own an LDG, for me a bona-fide LDG is a piece of steel guitar history.

As I stated in an earlier post, I use a double body single 10 for the comfort and ease of reaching knee levers, and nothing more, and I like the looks of them.

Larry

[James Morehead]

I sure like the early LDG's--the roundfronts with single/single and barrels, and the tone. But I really like the C6th neck, and I prefer the blonde birdseye. I guess I really like my guitar.



But if the right LDG came along, I'd snap it up like a frog on a fly!!

[Donny Hinson]

Does anyone know if there is any significant difference in tone, sustain etc. between 2 identical guitars, one built on a double cabinet vs. one built on a single cabinet?

Well, there may or may not be a difference. It would depend (IMHO) on the specific guitar and the specific player.

But, if you're asking that question...it probably doesn't really matter. You see, I believe that until you get up in the Emmons/Green/Franklin area of ability, that extra 1% or 2% advantage a certain guitar might give you just isn't noticeable. Good tone, and the know-how to get it, comes with ability.

I've never heard a really great player with a lousy tone, or a hacker with a really great tone.

[Bob Hoffnar]

In my experience with all things being the same (same bulder, pickup, amp and all) the S10 sounds less focused in the lower mids than an SD10. Of the steels I have owned and played the only S10 I have played that had a tone I was happy with was an old Emmons PP. Something doinky sounding about S10s to my ear. This is only my personal visceral experience as a player. As a listener I am not sure I could tell the difference.

[Shane Reilly]

Thanks a lot Lloyd for the history lesson,your input is greatly appreciated As for the wood neck v metal neck comparison,my teacher has a metal neck Emmons PP D-10 and I have a wood neck PP D-10 manufactured a couple years apart.Side by side ,plugged into the same Fender Twin they sound like Twins.You'd really have to listen exceptionally close to notice any tonal difference.I was surprised,I assumed my wood necks would have a more mellow "woody" tone,but no.
That's a beautiful guitar James,did it once belong to The King Of Siam? He has the same tassles in his palace drawing his curtains.Maybe your curtains are just out of shot.I can't imagine any "doinky" tone coming out of that baby.But then again "doinky" is not in the guitar......"doinky" is in the hands. Cheers,Shane.

[Shane Reilly]

Crikey! I think I just answered two threads with one post. Tired...must.....sleep....can't...reach..systems..shutting.....dow....zzzzzzzzzzz.

[b0b]

I think it's also a matter of perceptions. I for one, prefer the sound of a single neck guitar.

... J-D.

What would that sound be? I've never noticed a sound difference between the two.

[Chris LeDrew]

I think sheer weight comes into play with tone. I have two almost identical S10 Sho~Buds, except for one has older, heavier legs. It adds about 3-4 pounds to the weight. That guitar sounds slightly better. It has more bottom end. It is also, understandably, more sturdy and stable - which may also add to its marginally better tone.

[Al Terhune]

I will never, never understand why an LDG is sometimes as much as $1,000 more than a Pro 1.

Hi Chris -- I think Lloyd's note to you (you should frame it) was in answer to this. I was always under the impression that LDG's were, in fact, more valuable just because of Lloyd's name and design--which is what Lloyd is more or less saying. It's a "designer" guitar, and designer items are typically more expensive and valuable than a nondesigner item. Are they worth $1,000 more than a Bud like yours or mine? Ah, it all comes down to supply and demand...the public gets what the public wants, and it probably has nothing to do with one sounding better than the other. And I'm with Jim -- although I love my ShoBud and GFI, if I found an LDG I could afford, I would snatch it up mostly because it is a "Lloyd Green" ShoBud.

[James Morehead]

That's a beautiful guitar James,did it once belong to The King Of Siam? He has the same tassles in his palace drawing his curttains--- Cheers,Shane.

No Shane, if the King of Siam has the same kind of tassels, it's because he too, drinks Canadian Crown Royal!!!! He DID try to trade me a couple of concubines for the guitar, but I said I wouldn't take anything that eats.

[Billy Carr]

Three of the best sounding guitars I've had were LDG's. One had a 705 and the others had original Sho-Bud p/u's. Great guitars if there taken care of. I prefer the double body over a single. To me, there's a difference in the tone, especially if no effects are used. Just my opinion!

[Marc Jenkins]

I consigned a Carter Starter at a music store in Vancouver last summer. At the same time there was an LDG for sale for $1500 CAD (which was about $1300 USD!) I played it for about 10 seconds, got a cold sweat, and had to leave as I could not afford it whatsoever... Apparently it sat there for almost 6 months before a tourist snatched it up...

[A. Roncetti]

This may or may not fit in this catagory. I have heard of players converting D10's into SD10's. Has anyone heard of someone turning an SD10 into a D10? I mean is it possible adding another neck and all the other needed hardwear???

[Landon Johnson]

For that matter, has anyone ever padded the 'lip' of their S-10?

Landon

[J D Sauser]

I think it's also a matter of perceptions. I for one, prefer the sound of a single neck guitar.

... J-D.

What would that sound be? I've never noticed a sound difference between the two.

Bob, I saw your post above yesterday night and your question or better yet, my quest in finding the correct answer to it since, has not made last night's sleep easier. Bottom line, what I come here to tell you is, that I can't put it into words what it sounds like.
Maybe it just feels like sounding different to me, in a similar way as others seem to feel that a black PSG will stand a better chance of having that sound(?).
However, as far as PSG's go, I think that, besides the difference in mass there is also the added difference in tensions, additional mechanical clutter like pull rods, springs and the upper bank (when the lower one is played) which suck up some energy on double neck guitars... which is not the case on a single neck instrument. Maybe my perception of mechanical and physical issues affects the way I hear things, just like colors may indeed affect the way we play an instrument and thus indeed changes the sound, I can't tell... I still prefer a single neck PSG because I seem to feel it sounds better and a single body for size and playing comfort and the lack of body mass asymmetry.

I hope I somewhat answered your question.

Thanks! ... J-D.

[David Doggett]

For that matter, has anyone ever padded the 'lip' of their S-10?

Landon

Yes, I play a universal S12. Most of these have an inside ledge that can be almost half the width of a full neck. When playing the upper strings I rest my picking hand palm on the lower strings to minimize bar noise. When playing the lower strings I began to feel the need for a wrist rest on the ledge. As an experiment I took a piece of wood about 3/4" x 1 1/2" and taped it along the ledge. I liked it and covered it with duct tape and it is still there (real red-neck engineering). Someday I will have a custom pad made to replace it. I don't like the full pad on an SD10 or SD12. It gets in my way and makes the instrument bigger and heavier than I want. But the narrow pad seems just right for me.