cabinet drop

Mickey Lawson · Post by **Mickey Lawson** » 9 Jun 2007 10:13 pm

Has anyone ever considered building a 10-string pedal steel, with two additional strings added (one string above the highest pitch, and one string below the lowest pitch). They could be .030w guage (E), and never played. Tuned-up, they would add 32-lbs. pull each to the tuner (64-lbs. ttl.). When the A and B pedals are pushed, raising strings 3,5,6,and 10, the push-pull changer would lower the 2-additional strings, cancelling cabinet-drop. Just a question.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 10 Jun 2007 4:37 am

An interesting idea.
It has been put forth that cabinet drop may be changer axle flex; thus the tension on two outside strings might not be able to counteract the AB pedal tension raise.
But it could be done experimentally, and something would be learned.
Got a 12-string?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Jun 2007 5:54 am

Of course, your idea should work. It's one of many ways to solve the problem by counterforce, or balancing the strains.

For the most part, though, I feel cabinet drop is sort of a "red-herring", a minor thing that has been brought to light by digital tuners and then blown entirely out of proportion to it's real significance. Sure, I've played some old or cheap steels where it may have been an issue worthy of some attention, but these guitars were probably 1 in 100 (maybe down now to 1 in 1,000), and they're fast disappearing, or being upgraded to improve their performance. If you really find it to be a problem, see a good technician or get another steel, rather than try to cobble some mechanical apparatus to fix the problem.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 10 Jun 2007 11:43 am

I kind of agree with Donny on this. On my 12-strings (Emmons p/p, Zum, MSA Millennium) I have 3 pulls on each of the A, B, and C pedals, which gives me as much as 2 Hz (8 cents) cabinet drop. It would be less than that on a 10 string with 2 pulls on each. But, although the Es drop 2 Hz when the A and B pedals are down, the A and B pedal stops are tuned down that much so the chord sounds perfectly in tune (I tune the stops by ear using the dropped Es as reference, but know how much to tune them down by a meter also). Playing anywhere but at the nut, that small amount of drop is irrelevant, because the change in bar position is too small to see, and your ears should automatically compensate and play in tune.

Playing open at the nut, 2 Hz (8 cents) off is noticeable. A rule of thumb is that anything less than 5 cents (1.25 Hz) is acceptable, and so the drop does not pass this test. But I deal with that by splitting the difference. I tune the open E strings (and the whole open E chord) to a reference of 441. Then when the pedals are pressed, the Es drop to 439, and the whole A chord is tuned to that reference. Now both open E at the nut, and the pedaled A chord at the nut are within 1 Hz (4 cents) of the 440 reference standard. That passes the rule of thumb test, and I don't hear any real problem when playing with other instruments tuned to a 440 reference. I think some people with a cabinet drop similar to mine might run into trouble because they don't split the difference, but tune either the Es or the As (B pedal stops) to exactly 440, and let the other chord take the whole cabinet drop. That chord is not going to sound so good when playing open at the nut with other people. And, by the way, this splitting the difference works whether you tune everything Equal Temper, or tune by ear to Just Intonation (beatless).

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 11 Jun 2007 2:10 pm

I just play mine and don't ever think about cabinet drop. I'm yet to find the PERFECT guitar.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 11 Jun 2007 2:16 pm

Mr Carr, you got it right.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 11 Jun 2007 3:25 pm

I'm not sure that most steel players could position the bar within the parameters of +- 10 cents, given bar pressure variations and the error of refraction.
(The global prevalence of refractive errors has been estimated from 800 million to 2.3 billion.)
so what does cabinet drop ACTUALLY do to the overall perceived pitch ?

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 11 Jun 2007 3:44 pm

Basil, how did you get Bart Simpson to jump up and down on your instrument ?

That's the funniest thing I've seen in months

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 11 Jun 2007 4:19 pm

Seen it ? you wanna HEAR it !!

Paul Norman (RIP) · Post by **Paul Norman (RIP)** » 11 Jun 2007 4:26 pm

That's one way to make a cabinet drop.

Bill Ford · Post by **Bill Ford** » 11 Jun 2007 6:14 pm

Gotta love a guy with imagination..Go Basilh.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 11 Jun 2007 6:50 pm

I Gotta hold up my hand and say that I stole the Bart Simpson gif, but I can't remember who deserves the credit for its inception !
The action of Bart has given my wife ideas, so I better not annoy her (Well not Too Much)

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 11 Jun 2007 7:47 pm

Seems like no one was talking about "Cabinet Drop" until guitar tuners entered the picture.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 11 Jun 2007 9:05 pm

Ha! Ha!

Tommy Young · Post by **Tommy Young** » 11 Jun 2007 9:15 pm

I agree with Billy and Bad Bob,and Basil, and all these guy's let'ur drop HAHA GO BART[/b]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Jun 2007 9:43 pm

basilh wrote:I'm not sure that most steel players could position the bar within the parameters of +- 10 cents, given bar pressure variations and the error of refraction....so what does cabinet drop ACTUALLY do to the overall perceived pitch ?

If you said plus or minus 5 cents, I might agree with you. But plus or minus 10 cents is plus or minus 2.5 Hz in the vicinity around A=440. I don't think we would want to listen to a steeler who couldn't mostly get closer than that. I think decent steelers ears get them closer than that when playing with the bar. And I think decent steelers fairly easily compensate for cabinet drop when playing with the bar. But I think 8 cents, much less 10 cents off at the open nut will not sound good alongside instruments tuned closely with a meter. That's why to me it seems worthwhile to split the difference, so playing open at the nut sounds tolerable whether you have the pedals up or down.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 11 Jun 2007 9:53 pm

Roger Shackelton wrote:Seems like no one was talking about "Cabinet Drop" until guitar tuners entered the picture.

I think some people were talking about cabinet drop way back. People with good ears can hear the cabinet drop, especially in some of the older guitars that had quite a bit of drop. It didn't keep people from playing, but I'm pretty sure some guitars were traded because of it. I'll bet manufacturers were struggling to minimize it virtually from the inception of the pedal steel guitar.

Hans Holzherr · Post by **Hans Holzherr** » 11 Jun 2007 11:33 pm

David, does tuning down the A pedal also take care of the C# major chord in the open position? The reason I am asking is that I usually measure cabinet drop at the 6th string with A pedal and E to F lever engaged because it's most apparent there. On my Carter S-12 the 6th string drops 3 to 4 cents which is quite tolerable.

Hans

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 12 Jun 2007 1:22 am

David, you're right of course. I was referring to "MOST" steel players rather than the better ones, because the majority are not in the higher echelon and consequently probably don't hear that accurately, at least that's what I gather from samples of playing posted here.
The likelihood is that only the better more experienced players can hear to within plus or minus 5 cents let alone PLAY within that tolerance.
Your assumptions about "Decent" steelers is correct, but just how many of us fall into that category ?

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 12 Jun 2007 5:03 am

I resemble that!

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 12 Jun 2007 6:17 am

Phooey! I guess there are certain folks who've been working a long time at this business could tell the difference between a 4 or 5 cent drop, but I can assure you they're in the minority. I would wager that most of the forumites would miss it further than that. And the guy's right, I can't remember even thinking about a change until I saw it on a Seiko digital tuner.

Another little bet; I would bet a pretty that where most of us play we could pick the guitar up and throw into the middle of the dance floor and two slightly inebriated fellows would pick it up, bring it to the band stand and say, "Hey, Dummy, You dropped this!!"

phred

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Jun 2007 11:50 am

Basilh, I think we pretty much agree.

Fred, we agree to some extent. I would simply ignore a cabinet drop of 5 cents or less, it's something you only notice with a meter, or if you listen carefully in the quiet at home. More than that, I would split the difference, since that is so easy to do. But you are probably right that with the beer and the racket in a Saturday night bar even 8 or 10 cents off might not get much notice. After all, Equal Temper and Just Intonation are off by 14 cents on major 3rds and 16 cents on minor thirds, and people learn to live with that difference.

Hans, yes tuning the A pedal C# stop down a smidge will help the C# chord with the A and F pedal. If you think about it, the E string drop is not relevant, because you will tune the F lever stop to sound good with A pedal C# stop, wherever it might be. But the G# (the 5th of the chord) is unpedaled, and it might drop a little when the A pedal is pressed. So having the A pedal stop tuned down a smidge (and the F lever stop to match it) should help those two stops match the G#. Likewise, with the C#m chord the lowered C# on the A pedal will better match the cabinet drop on the unpedaled E and G# strings. There may not be quite as much drop with the A pedal alone, but most of the drop comes from the A pedal, which pulls a whole step, whereas the B pedal only pulls a half step, and pulls smaller strings.

Jim Pitman · Post by **Jim Pitman** » 12 Jun 2007 6:33 pm

Excuse my mighty wind (lengthy post)

My observations on cabinet drop and perhaps a legitimate reason for manufacturers to attempt to eliminate it.

1. Guitars with with thick wooden necks/tops have less cabinet drop. Unfortunately the also sound like sh..

2. All things equal (same construction concept)the more strings you put on a PSG the worse the cabinet drop is. Ie a 10 string is Ok, 12 string is worse, and I've seen some 14 strings that are intollerable. Furthermore, I've heard a six string PSG has no cabinet drop! Try removing some strings on your guitar to prove this.

These two points support the following theory:

Cabinet drop is mainly due to the fact the string force, typically 30lbs x 10 stings = 300lbs, is all on the top of the guitar - it's offset. It bows the top wood of the guitar. The hole for the changer further agravates this by making the changer anchor point weaker. The more the guitar top is bowed the easier it is a for a string pull to bow it further, hence cabinet drop is worse on guitars with more strings.

If you could design a changer/tuners that applied the string tension equally top and bottom so the top would not bow, cabinet drop would be reduced significantly.

A legitmate reason to attempt this - so you can make the guitar top thinner to allow it to resonate better.

I'd like to try this some day - put pillow blocks on each end of the underside of the top wood, one under the changer the other under the tuning keys and run a rod between them with a turn buckle the full length of the guitar. Adjust the rod to take the bow out. Kinda like a conventional guitar neck tension rod. I theorize this would reduce cabinet drop to the point you could get away with a thinner, more resonant top.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 12 Jun 2007 7:10 pm

Interesting ideas, Jim, but:

I'm not sure if it is the extra strings or the extra pulls on 12 and 14-string guitars that cause the greater cabinet drop. On my S12Us I have 3 pulls on most pedals and levers, where a 10-string might have two pulls. And the extra pulls are on thick low strings.

There is good evidence that some of the cabinet drop comes from slack or flexing of metal parts in the changer and keyhead. I'm not sure your rod and turnbuckle would affect that.

The relationship of body thickness and resonance to tone and sustain in a solid-body guitar is not at all clear to me. If you look at the various types of regular 6-string electric guitars, the big hollow-body jazz boxes with thin tops have a mellow tone with less sustain. Semihollow-bodies have a brighter sound with more sustain. And solid-bodies have the brightest tone with the most sustain (and their bodies are much thicker than most steel guitars). Also, many steelers claim the big, heavy, thick-body pedal steels have the best tone and sustain. It just seems to me that in solid-body guitars with magnetic pickups, the signal comes from the metal strings and the magnetic fields of the pickups. Body resonance tends to drain off string vibrational energy and decrease sustain. A lot of the ideas about body resonance come from experience with acoustic guitars, where the body resonance creates the sound. But it is a very different case with solid-body guitars and magnetic pickups.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 12 Jun 2007 7:57 pm

1. Guitars with with thick wooden necks/tops have less cabinet drop. Unfortunately the also sound like sh..

You tell 'em, Jim. If you convince everybody, I'll be able to buy round-front Sho-Buds for cheap!

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