Accurate Pitch Discrepancies

[Bill Hankey]

David D.,

Thanks for the convincing information on matters of tuning. Goodness knows that "fickle" is more aptly applied to animate creatures, rather than steel guitar strings. If the little string isn't properly handled, fickle would be a mild term for the ensuing consequences. Triads offer the best "Cut across shorty" check to get with the band's overall sequences of pitches. Try "gluing" down, (not literally) both A & B pedals while adjusting a chord frame to blend harmoniously at mid-range on the neck of the steel. The ears will remain superior to all other methods.

[Bo Legg]

I still think an adjustable changer like an adjustable bridge on a standard guitar would help with the intonation, but I won't open that can of worms again.

[Charlie McDonald]

I have to disagree philosophically, David.
The 'temper' of a tuning is by degree, between the extremes of just and equal. Adjustments from either are tempering; thus the tuning gains its particular temperament.

The beauty of steel: you can temper that B or F# to suit the song. (Only 'Don't try this at home' doesn't apply; don't try it on the job!)

[Eric West]

There are either twelve semi-tones in an octave or there aren't.



EJL

[Bill Hankey]

Charlie,

Sadly, the human element that displays temperamental changes without warning can cause much tongue biting rather than becoming defensive in the wake of belittlement. When you stop to think about it, the strings of a pedal steel with its tempered tunings, is consistent with the irritating individual who feels slighted by things that are normally overlooked. The bagpipe droning may offer changes to effect a different approach to tuning. It's the harmonic effects of chord frames that determines acceptable tunings. One rule that I've adapted over the years amounts to changing a plan of action, if too much difficulty rears its ugly head in a practiced procedure. Washington Irving was deliberate in defining temperament. He stressed poor living conditions before Rip and his dog wandered into The Catskill Mountains.

[Tracy Sheehan]

Tracy, I understand your point. But be careful about the terminology. Outside the theory challenged guitar world all other musicians refer to the pure Just Intonation system, which is far from straight up 440, as untempered. Anything else is considered some form of tempered intonation. Everything straight up 440 is Equal Temper, and is the ultimate tempered system - you can't get any more tempered than that. So what a straight up meter gives you is Equal Temper. As you move away from that to make the intonation more pleasing to the ear, you are actually untempering and moving toward the pure untempered Just Intonation. Somehow the guitar world has gotten the terminology exactly backwards. I guess it is because so many guitarists mistakenly think of the straight up meter as "in tune," and so varying from that must be "tempering." But really, the straight up meter is already tempered to the maximum, and so quite out of tune compared to pure untempered Just Intonation. Moving away from straight up toward Just Intonation by ear is untempering.

I understand where you are coming from David.It can be confusing as we used to not be concerned with this can of womsLOL.We used to just tune one string with the piano,tuning fork,pitch pipe,ect and the rest by ear.No piano can be tuned either to be in perfect pitch in every key.
Any steel player who works with a piano p;ayer will have to tune with the piano.( This info is for the new comers).A steel is like a violin.If one doesn't have the ear to tune with out a tuner should train thier ear.Just trying to help some understand and not let it drive thm nuts tuning with a tuner then wondering why they are not in tune with the piano.The piano is the first instrument i started on before i was 10 years old.Just some things we have to live with or take up banjo.(sorry b0b)
BTW.David,an ecectronic tuner is pre programed to show the strings to be in tune on the 440 mark.More reason for the confusion.I gotta go take some asprin.lol

[Bill Hankey]

There are those who attract very little attention on the bandstand tuning their instrument, while others create a big event by turning keys excessively. The late Paul Manning who resided in West Springfield, Ma. installed a moveable fretboard on his homemade steel. I think that he could immediately adjust to half tone variences. He kept his changer covered under lock and key. Fortunately, I've resolved the troublesome changer issue by developing a foolproof changer of my own. BTW, a better changer has much to do with tuning capabilities.

[Doug Beaumier]

Bill, Paul Manning's 'lock box' on the end of his home made PSG was legendary. When he needed to tune at the endplate he would unlock the box, reach inside, make the necessary adjustment, and then lock the box! That was back in the days when steel players would keep their inventions secret. Rumor has it... that there was Nothing in the box.

[Bill Hankey]

Doug,

The percentages tell the story! Paul was an amazing personality. I attended a few steel shows with him. He provided me with many new ideas. He was a man who could face misfortune as bravely as anyone I've met. He always brought along a good supply of humor. By alluding to percentages, it serves to remind me here on this forum, that the quest for forum membership descriptive exchanges can go haywire quite frequently. Basic lifestyles are reflected remotely depending on responses.

[Bill Hankey]

Time has a way of dispelling the novelties of exciting moments. The wearing away effects that cause systematic changes in productive activities, are subtle at the onset, It can result in a period of laying out of practice sessions. Newfound interests relating to the pedal steel, such as a means to properly adjust and tune the instrument will go far in preserving original incentives.

[Alan Brookes]

Surely "Accurate Pitch Discrepancies" is a a conflict in terms ! What exactly is an "Inaccurate Pitch Discrepancy" ? If you have a pitch discrepancy it's inaccurate, so you can't have an accurate pitch discrepancy.

But, seriously, the steel guitar has no frets and doesn't have the tuning problem of fretted instruments, which cannot be made to play in tune. The keyboard is always tuned to tempered tuning, so that it is slightly out in every key. With the steel you can play in natural tuning. You're going to have to play in the same tuning as the rest of the band or sound out-of-tune yourself.

[Bill Hankey]

Alan,

Alan, like, don't try to put words in my mouth. I appreciate the call, but if you choose to ad ins or uns to my original post, of course there would be confusion in trying to make heads or tails of the concept.
The subject is accurate pitches. I knew when I submitted the tangential thread, that there may be others who realize that something remains unexplained when it concerns slipshod tunings that prove to be unstable. Research should enable you to find many titles that due to brevity, may appear as though the author is remiss. Trust me in this matter. I am well schooled in matters of discrepancies.

[Mitch Ellis]

David Doggett said "The problem is that our minds can always hear potentials that our earthbound bodies simply cannot execute with perfection."

Ain't that the truth!
Mitch

[Alan Brookes]

Alan... don't try to put words in my mouth. I appreciate the call, but if you choose to ad ins or uns to my original post...

I didn't. I just pointed out that if a pitch has a discrepancy it can be neither an accurate discrepancy or (by the opposite) an inaccurate discrepancy, unless there is a certain amount of discrepancy which is accurate, or, by inference, desirable. It's a grammatical point, that's all, which is why I ended it with a ....

You did say, "For those who feel I'm careless with the English language, hows about a chit chat on the subject of improperly tuned instruments?", and I covered that in my mention of the problem of mean temperament, which has been the problem since Bach invented it.

[Bill Hankey]

Alan,

You strike me as a person who would have much to offer in this tuning enigma. It appears that your no-nonsense grammatical expectations could easily put many forum members on notice, that accuracy in discriptive messages is important. On the title in question, I'll admit that I did a double-take before clicking the send control. Years ago, I was trying to teach a little steel to a friend, when from out of sidelines a stout individual who was nearby, chose to pick up on something that I said. He drilled me on somthing to do with thermo changes, (I can't remember) but I do recall neglecting to ask him what he knew about a good method of tuning a steel guitar. A wise man once said, "Know where to look for the answers, instead of making excuses for not knowing" is always a good policy to follow. If I didn't quote verbatim to the letter, the message is not that confusing. There is rarely an individual who in spite of a habitual tendency to become vocal, in a variety of subject matters, from flimsy to concrete, who will stand his ground, once backed into a corner. Nothing will entice him more than getting away from whatever "corralled" his
expertise. The Achilles' heel mentality works in many ways in everyday life. The lack of stability in tunings of all makes and models of musical instruments, has been accepted as routine. Who is about to argue with the majority of thinking musicians? I can think of a few noteworthy examples of human behaviors that could influence our daily lives. The usages of words not listed in desk dictionaries, and by giving detailed information of said words at the recent National Spelling Bee. It becomes less intimidating while witnessing a parade of gifted youngsters taking their seats after failing to spell correctly. I quickly noticed the lack of appeal by the exclusion of many household words, that are known to trip the brightest of the bright.

[Alan Brookes]

Bill: I worked for years in local government in England and as an authority we were expected to be verbally correct in all notices, correspondence, etc. I can remember having a report returned to me by the Borough Treasurer because it contained too many words. His attitude was that many words indicated a lack of vocabulary; that people used too many small words and were not sufficiently specific or accurate. He even complained if your ratio of Saxon-influenced to Norman or Latin-Influenced words was too high. It has created in me a quest to see accuracy in usage, and the incorrect use of grammar or punctuation has always jarred in my mind. The one usage that bothers me more than anything, living as I do in California, is "5 items or less" in the check-out queue, which should, of course, be "5 items or fewer."

[David Doggett]

Aahh, what do the English know? You'd think they like invented the language or somethin', man.

[Gregg Thacker]

I have been told by a pretty reliable source in the Medical field, that I have tinnitus (sp). My ears squeal constantly (Bummer!). What really "bugs" me is, I seem to have a pretty good ear in the fact that i can tell you when a note is sharp or flat. BUT when trying to tune on many occasions, I have a real problem getting the strings (a fairly new set)to tune to pitch.

I even use a tuning machine and if I tune straight up at 440, the strings are really aout of tune, so to make up the difference I tune the string (depending on which one) either a little sharp or flat.

My not being able to detect the correct pitch especially on the high and low end, is really a bummer. Oh well, guess I have to get accustomed to the fact that the squealing will not subsude and just have fun playing regardless if my Steel is in tune perfectly or not HA!

Gregg

[Bill Hankey]

Alan,

The rules that apply to proper English are usually too difficult to be adhered to by the average joe. In English classes a student is subjected to the fine arts of expressions by the use of selected vocabularies. Typically, the English professor should be of the type that remains aloof, always condescending in greater or lesser degrees. Their job is to facilitate dumping a load of homework on an unsuspecting student, rather than getting involved in close-up instruction. I did random studies in a few rare, but catchy rules of English found in assorted books around my home. When I questioned the assigned professor of my English class in verbatim, she as usual turned away, but failed to produce answers that corresponded to instructions by professors of renown. That experience combined with the quirky references to flowery language, caused a breach in faith. We will never absorb the volumes of free information found at libraries. Who needs to get involved with favoritism, or a lack of assistance from selected groups? America is still the land of opportunity. Getting bogged down is another matter. There has always been practices that deter better learning, in the educational systems throughout the land. I understand that teachers were remiss in past years by underestimating future geniuses. That in itself can be unnerving. For those who may wonder how these statements connect with steel guitarists, for starters consider a wider range of interpretations while reading written instructions.

[Charlie McDonald]

English is easy; pedal steel is hard.

[Howard Tate]

I'm not very knowledgeable on this subject, but since I started thinking about playing in tune the way a singer thinks about staying on pitch, my intonation has gotten better. I use the Newman presets, but people who tune straight up like Bill Stafford and always sounds right on, have convinced me that whatever method you use will work if it sounds good to you, and is consistent. Keyword being "consistent". If someone tells me I'm wrong I'll probably believe them and play out of tune from now on. (Maybe I already do)

[David Doggett]

Here's a trick if you are trying to tune one string to another. Instead of tuning open at the nut, put the bar toward the middle of the neck, say the 8th fret. Without watching the bar, slant it slightly back and forth until the two strings sound in tune with each other. Then look at the bar. If it is staight, they are in tune. If the bar is slanted, that tells you which direction and how much they are out of tune.

[Bill Hankey]

David D.,

As you must know, we are less inclined to focus on the "heel" of the bar. Visually, it remains as one of the major problems in correct bar placement. There have been situations that further frustrate the tuning processes, and bar slanting is not the least of all. The two gentlemen who've written in quest of suggestions, seem to be high in the saddle on tuning excursions, namely (Howard and Gregg). Gregg has the unfortunate symptoms known as tinnitus, the condition that seems to block certain levels of sound vibrations. I believe that partial loss of hearing is the most common culprit linked to the affliction. BP may cause variences of intensity. The condition is very common, and music offers relief by overpowering the high pitched ringing. There is a "ton" of new information on the subject, including the discovery of where in the brain the condition is triggered.

[Alan Brookes]

Hey Bill, we could start a whole new Forum on the basis of a philosophical discussion of learning and grammar.

I had problems with my English teachers. They usually hadn't read up on the subject of linguistics, and they were more concerned with literature. By its definition, a language needs a lingua, a tongue, and literature is not language; only spoken word is language. The problem with rules in languages is that they are a moment in time in the history of the language. Today's slang is tomorrow's acceptable speech, and today's acceptable speech is yesterday's slang. If rules of grammar had been laid down in law two thousand years ago we would still be speaking Anglo-Saxon. The English language is unique among languages in that it has two complete vocabularies, one from Saxon and one from Norman, and the interplay between the two makes for interesting nuances. But English is based on yesterday's errors. Look at the past tense of the verb "to go", which has completely disappeared, and so we use "went", which is the past tense of "wend."

I just wish that people in the Forum knew about the Saxon Genitive... you don't pluralise in 's

[Bill Hankey]

Alan,

Thanks for the suggestions, but it might be better in the interest of making good choices, if we stray no further from the road to steel guitar city. Now there's a novel idea to pursue. I'm for turning away from the vagrants of speech, music, dress, and all things that have made our streets unsafe for our children. The steel guitar has been popularized extensively, and a good movie depicting its full potential, would be an excellent source of entertainment for those lacking knowledge of the instrument. There would be any number of choices to choose from by connecting builders, teachers, performers, etc. to the main theme of possibly the ultimate stringed instrument. The production would be representative of 60 + years of dedication to an instrument that is still obscure in the minds of those who profess having musical knowledge.