Body crossbar / PP

John Walden · Post by **John Walden** » 2 Jun 2007 6:45 am

Hi all, I recently picked-up a PP SD-12. Great shape too. I'm wondering about the flat cross bar that ties the front and rear aprons together, in the middle of the guitar. This PP doesn't have one. Those that do..... does it really work ? Helps with cab. drop ? Worth the two extra holes in the body ? Thanks for your input. J. W.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 2 Jun 2007 8:14 am

John---I also have a PP SD-12. It does have a strap/brace. I have no idea if it was a factory install ("install" meaning drill two holes, as you say) or after-market and I have no idea what's up with some guitars having it and others not.
I have seen pictures of double bodies that have warped & bowed. It wasn't pretty. I'm pretty sure that this is what the strap is about---not cabinet drop or any other tuning issues.
Of course, my having this guitar doesn't quite make me know a thing about what I'm talking about but I do seem to recall discussions about this a few years ago.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 2 Jun 2007 8:18 am

My 71 D-10 PP had one installed from the factory.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 2 Jun 2007 8:27 am

My D-12 Emmons apparently came with one, but it was removed before I got it. If anyone has one they'd like to get rid of, I'm interested.

John Walden · Post by **John Walden** » 2 Jun 2007 8:39 am

Thanks guys for your input ! Seems the bar is to help prevent warpage of the aprons down the long side. Makes sense. If a guitar that is 27 years old, hasn't warped at all, likely to warp ? Thanks again, J. W.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 2 Jun 2007 9:07 am

I used to play an early 80's S-12 push/pull. It was a narrow, single body, not an SD-12. It had one of those straps.

Robert Leaman · Post by **Robert Leaman** » 2 Jun 2007 9:24 am

I made a sad, sad mistake of purchasing a 1974 Emmons D10, 4+4, but was finally able to palm it off on a poor unsuspecting soul. It had a crossbar installed when it bought it. I don't know if it was factory installed or an after thought at the dealer. I must say that it certainly gave the local music store a great amount of string business.

Peter Freiberger · Post by **Peter Freiberger** » 2 Jun 2007 12:30 pm

My S10 & recently acquired '76 D10 both have one. I looked under one of Jaydee's and it had two. His instruments are immaculate after decades of hard use, so it must be important.

Peter Freiberger

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 3 Jun 2007 6:10 am

I would say that the cross brace is quite important. The brackets for the cross shafts mount on the back apron. If this gets warped in the slightest, the rods want to bind up and stick. I have had to file and shape the brackets to make them fit the warped apron. Not a fun project.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 3 Jun 2007 10:05 am

My S12 p/p ext. E9 had a cross brace, and I took it off to make room for a vertical lever. Doh! Guess I better figure a way to put it back on.

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 3 Jun 2007 6:01 pm

I've wondered about this too. If it's so important why would Emmons make some guitars with and some without them?

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 4 Jun 2007 1:12 am

I have owned several push pulls, and only one had a cross strap -- Tommy White's old 1982. The guitars I have now are 1964s and a 1966 and they are straight without cross straps, although one 1964 doesn't have rear aprons in the usual sense, and the cross shafts are supported by Marlen brackets on the player side. The only guitar I ever had with aprons that had drifted apart more than 1/16th of an inch was a 1969 (1280 D, if I recall), but fatter apron blocks on one cross shaft solved the problem.
Emmons did use fatter apron blocks on some guitars --maybe apron drift was the reason?
Before Emmons used necks with internal ribs, used heavier end plates and switched from a maple to a steel pedal stop bar and added those steel strips running along the apron edges, it seems from my experience that the bodies did not spread. Maybe they used better-seasoned maple when they produced fewer guitars?
I have a cross strap in my parts pile and am still waiting to use it.

Brian Henry · Post by **Brian Henry** » 4 Jun 2007 3:30 am

This sounds like a gimmick. How come no other builder has this brace, and how come only some Emmmons have it??

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 4 Jun 2007 6:00 am

Some of the older Zum steels have the bracket. I had one that did but don't know what purpose it served. Have often wandered that myself. My current P/P doesn't have one.

Henry Matthews · Post by **Henry Matthews** » 4 Jun 2007 6:01 am

Some of the older Zum steels have the bracket. I had one that did but don't know what purpose it served. Have often wandered that myself. My current P/P doesn't have one.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 4 Jun 2007 6:12 am

If you look at some pictures of Zumsteels, it seems like there are some attachments to it.

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 4 Jun 2007 7:00 am

Could it be that many other brands have aluminum rails that hold the cross shafts and help stabilise the aprons? Then the reinforcement might not be needed.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 4 Jun 2007 10:42 am

My late 81 Franklin has a brace, that I put on myself and I've seen later Franklin's that also have a factory installed brace.

Whether it is needed? but it does preclude a problem if the sides tended to buckle either in or out. Even a very slight amount could cause a cross shaft problem.

Paddy Long · Post by **Paddy Long** » 6 Jun 2007 5:50 pm

Actually Zum D10's have them and they usually have return compensator rods connected to them - rather than to stop any cabinet warp. Both my Zums, a 97 and 2001 model,have them.

Jay Dee Maness · Post by **Jay Dee Maness** » 6 Jun 2007 6:41 pm

The reason Emmons used cross bar body supports, is because all eight of the main floor pedal cross rods were spring loaded at the rear apron blocks. After time, the rear apron and the front apron, would bow outward from the tension caused by the springs.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 10 Jun 2007 12:39 pm

What Jay Dee said.
If your push pull don't have them , get them on there. If any one else feels like they need to pawn off their old p/p on somebody , give me a call.
I find it amazing how many folks buy these guitars and apparently don't take the time to understand how they work. If they are so bad how did they become the standard which other guitars are measured.
Find out how your guitar works mechanically and then learn to play the damn thing.Thats my four cents for today..

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 10 Jun 2007 1:51 pm

JayDee you certainly know your Emmons and have been playing one since I was watching Yogi and Boo Boo, but I suggest that if the springs loading the ends of the cross shafts are compressed so much that they spread the aprons, the springs are too long.
I am looking at a pile of 31 Emmons D-10 cross shafts. They are slightly different in length -- and I am not counting certain 1964 cross shafts which are shorter for a special reason. Maybe in an assembly line situation you use the same length spring for all cross shaft length, some springs may generate too much tension.
I had one guitar -- 1280D that had apron spread, but that was becasue a previous owner did some goofy mods that spread the aprons. I sold that guitar as a pile of parts.
Don't add a cross strap unless your guitar needs one -- or two if locating one in the middle is an issue.
None of my Emmons push pulls that have a rear apron have apron spread and none need a cross strap. Maybe it is because all of them are red underneath?

John Walden · Post by **John Walden** » 10 Jun 2007 4:41 pm

No big surprise here. Yes, no, maybe. Sounds like good insurance to have one. My new baby is down at Jim Palenscar's shop, right now, for a check-up and new lever. The aprons are perfectly straight. But if you look closely, you can see where it had one. She is 27 years old, and a sweetheart. I'm in love again.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks to all who posted ! J. W.

Robert Leaman · Post by **Robert Leaman** » 10 Jun 2007 4:53 pm

Mr. Vanderberg, as an engineer, I understand perfectly how a push-pull Emmons operates and the principles used to design it. I played it for years and at the time, I enjoyed my Emmons. However, it was not to my taste and I replaced it at the first opportunity for a superior instrument. Push-pull Emmons guitars have their faults as does every other mechanical device whether it is a musical instrument or not. Before passing judgment on someone's knowledge and ability, be certain you are qualified to judge. I didn't like the Emmons push-pull and I do not care whether anyone cares for my opinion or not. I don't pass judgements on people's knowledge and opinions and do not expect people to pass judgment on mine.

Shorty Smith · Post by **Shorty Smith** » 10 Jun 2007 6:05 pm

My 1973 Emmons, D10 p/p (bought new in 73) has a bar. What a great steel guitar, I never break a string because of the steel. I change strings every two month, playing 2 night a week, and very seldem break a string. If I do its the 3rd string, by striking it wrong. This guitar stays in tune very good. Wouldn't trade it for anything on the market today

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