Need advice on first pedal steel

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 16 May 2007 3:57 pm

You need to try a pedal steel. It is much smoother and more flexible to have the pulls worked by your feet, completely independent of your hands and arms. Any student model pedal steel will do way more than a 6-string lap steel with a couple of hand levers. In the alt circles you seem to be in, no one will care that it is a student model or used pro model. They will only hear the amazing stuff you can do with it. Coming from 6-string open E lap steel, you will be bothered by the extra strings and out of order strings at first. But you will quickly learn the amazing stuff you can do on pedal steel that is not possible on any other instrument. Don't worry that it was designed to play country music. It is designed to play the western diatonic scale, with some chromatic possibilities. You can get the country flavor easy, but it will also take you as far away from that as you want to go. Beyond country, pedal steel is wide open and in it's infancy. The few experimentalists have only scratched the surface of what this amazing instrument might do.

Ron Brennan · Post by **Ron Brennan** » 16 May 2007 7:21 pm

Dave,

Great Post.....and 100 % on point!!

TX

Rgds,

Ron

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 17 May 2007 6:44 am

Ok, there's a lot to think about here because I have invested so much money in my current setup.

- Will I need a new amp? How does a steel amp differ from a normal guitar amp?

- Will an eBow work well on a psg? I know that it will work, but is the string spacing too narrow to use it properly.

I'm leaning towards putting this off for a while because I am supposed to be recording and working on new songs. I'm guessing the PSG will take a lot of practice even if I plan on not using it in a traditional manner. I'm thinking I don't have time to be excited about a new instrument.

I called a friend of mine that has recently bought a psg. It turns out that he bought a Sierra "basic model" for $3500. Holy @#@$%!. I don't even want to try that as I wouldn't be able to get it out of my mind.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 17 May 2007 8:40 am

A steel amp is designed to provide a very clean, full, sound...rich bass notes and pure crisp highs. From what you've described, you're amp setup might work fine for you. You are the only one that can make that determination.

The E-Bow works well on a psg...no problems that I know of.

Seems to me the Sierra, at $3500, was not a basic 3x4 guitar. You could get a used pro S10, 3x4, for about $1200 to $1800 range that would work very well for what you describe.

You're right, a psg will take some time to learn, so, being that you're recording and writing, it would take away from that. Waiting for a break in the action might be the best choice. In the meantime, you can peruse the market for a good deal as time permits. It never helps anyone to add pressure to a pressured situation...and psg does require a learning curve. You'll want to spend time exploring the psg's potential, and it sounds like you don't have that luxury at present.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 17 May 2007 9:52 am

http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

This article helped me the most, when I was trying to decide. It is worth your time to read.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 17 May 2007 11:18 am

I called a friend of mine that has recently bought a psg. It turns out that he bought a Sierra "basic model" for $3500. Holy @#@$%!. I don't even want to try that as I wouldn't be able to get it out of my mind.

-I got a used pro model for $900, and a carter starter can be had new for $600 tho i wouldnt recommend it. No offense James but it sounds kinda like you are trying to talk yourself out of buying a psg. We certainly arent trying to sell you on it. I can understand that, they are expensive, heavy, and very demanding no matter what you intend to do with them musically. I think you should take Tucker up on his offer. A litle hands on with a couple different steels and a chat with him will answer all your questions.

To me psg and lap are two entirely different instruments...once that fretboard starts shifting its a whole nother ballgame as they say....if your just hoping to get a littel more out of your current lap steel set-up, or chasing a certain tone, you may be right...the psg may not be for you.

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 17 May 2007 12:34 pm

I'm not offended and you are exactly right. I want one and I want that sound. However, I know that I just can't justify it right now with my schedule. I'm trying to be wise instead of impulsive.

I'm intrigued by what a psg will force me to learn as far as music theory. It's just a great idea for a musical instrument.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 17 May 2007 1:15 pm

well its good you are investigating it now, because just finding a steel , a teacher, getting setup with the gear etc takes more time than you'd think. Then, If you can give it even ten to fifteen minutes a day you WILL make progress. Thats about all I can find time for myself with work and home and now illness...hmm maybe Im not the best example since I stink.

but what Im trying to say is you will reap incredible benefits even at that low low level of commitment. If you were about to head out on a year long tour and couldnt bring the steel that'd be another story. You might be surprised and find it is just the thing for your upcming recording..even if your just mashing the AB pedal s in and out in a couple places....gotta love that sound.

I was never into theory (and still dont really like it..thats stuffs like math..i just wanna rock out! not go back to algerba class .haha) till I started psg about a year and a half ago. It DID force ( or should I say gently lead me?) me to learn some basic theory and in doing so has vastly improved my songwriting, my performing, and my ability on all other instruments.
its win win on the theory with psg. trying to learn this thing has just made me a better all around musician in ways I had never dreamed of.

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 17 May 2007 2:38 pm

James Mayer wrote:

- Will I need a new amp? How does a steel amp differ from a normal guitar amp?

- Will an eBow work well on a psg? I know that it will work, but is the string spacing too narrow to use it properly.

Most guys use a 1x15 amp. I've heard and used a Fender Twin w/steel and liked it. (Wish I'd kept mine!) Have also used an older Peavey Reknown (160W)2x12....I kinda like 12s (versatility with guitar) but most use a dedicated 1x15 for steel.....

I've helped lug Nashville and Vegas 400s and I'm not enthused about the weight, especially at my "experienced" age. Sound is good though! Maybe I'll eventually get something like the new Fender Steelking or the little Peavey...

Ebow? Go to YouTube and check out Sarah Jory's use of one.....(There are only 2 clips, enjoy both!)

Best,

Dennis

BTW, right on post as usual David!

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 17 May 2007 3:11 pm

I like the Jory chick. The second clip where she is playing on of the themes from Ennio Morricone's "Once Upon a Time in the West" is outstanding.

Randy Phelps · Post by **Randy Phelps** » 17 May 2007 4:44 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIJXanMLjt0

this is kind of trippy.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 17 May 2007 7:59 pm

yes nice use of looping live...probably a couple line 6 delay modelers? Ive seen alot of people using two of those things to stack loops like that recently. I'd love to have a line 6 delay modeler (let alone two of em) but they are kinda expensive .
she makes it work ...hats off.

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 18 May 2007 8:14 am

James Mayer wrote:I like the Jory chick. The second clip where she is playing on of the themes from Ennio Morricone's "Once Upon a Time in the West" is outstanding.

Sure is! Too bad it was cut short huh?

There's a magnificent version by Frank Carter at Charlie's site too: (complete with Ebow)

http://www.etsga.org/etsga50.htm

Enjoy! You WILL be amazed...

Dennis

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 18 May 2007 8:27 am

Oh my god! I'm a huge Ennio Morricone fan. It's perfect for psg.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 18 May 2007 8:28 am

I love Kaki King. Like her style.
I love Sarah Jory too. What other steeler plays in high heels?

And oh my--the Frank Carter clip; to die for.

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 18 May 2007 8:35 am

Charlie McDonald wrote: What other steeler plays in high heels?

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 18 May 2007 8:51 am

I stand corrected.

I should learn to sit correctly.
I'm looking for a pair of tai chi shoes.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 18 May 2007 10:57 am

As far as pedal steel amps go, start with the amp(s) you have. Only you can tell if they work well for you on pedal steel. PSG amps tend to be more powerful and cleaner playing than guitar amps. The extra power helps for clean lows, but also helps with the way the volume pedal is used for sustain. The sustain pedal steelers get with a volume pedal and powerful amp is pure, clean sustain of whole chords, not the overdriven single-string sustain of lead guitar. You get the clean sustain by attacking notes with the volume pedal backed off half-way or more, then gradually increase the VP to exactly match the die-off of the strings. Because you are attacking notes with the pedal backed off so much, right away you need an amp with at least twice as much power. So the additional power translates to more sustain, not necessarily more volume. When you use the volume pedal this way, the first clue that your amp is underpowered is that your VP is bumping and you are running out of sustain on the long notes.

To get the needed power, most pedal steelers use big solid state amps, which play very clean and help keep the cost, weight and maintenance down. But some of us prefer tube tone, and so use big clean tube amps such as the Fender Twin and Super Twin (actually I use a Dual Showman head or a Super Twin in a head cab, to help with the weight problem). Most steelers prefer a 15" speaker, because it helps tame the shrill highs, mellows the mids, and provides full organ-like lows. But some steelers use 12s, especially for rock and blues.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 18 May 2007 1:14 pm

James. You are being way too anal about this. Better to just walk up to the edge of the dark abyss and just jump in! Just go to a store or to someone you know who has a pedal guitar and sit down and mess with it some. Don't worry about the tuning on it, you are going to probably change it anyway. See if you get intrigued by it and if you hear any music potential. That is all it takes and the weight of it and the set up time and the cost and everything else is not an issue anymore.

I play standard guitar and bass for a living. I am always messing around with pedal guitar and tuning it weird ways and such. I just had a six string pedal guitar made with 6 pedals and 5 knees. It will allow me to fulfill all the out of the ordinary things I want to do. You can buy a 10 string PSG and change everything around like you want it. I would recommend a guitar with square cross rods so you can make easy changes to the tuning.

Also the cumbus is not really a Turkish banjo. It was designed as a poor mans oud, it being a metal pot with a plastic head and with a neck attached to it. The instrument is still used a lot in that region. I have a fretless one and enjoy playing it on sessions for that sound.

Best to you in your steel guitar journey. There are many wiped out six banger guitar players in the ditch along the path you are taking. I have been there lots of times. Don't pay any attention to them. Many get back up and either high tail it back to the safety of a Strat and some sort of fuzz device and some continue on like the rest of us trying our best. It is never ending.

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 19 May 2007 9:28 am

Bill Hatcher wrote:
Best to you in your steel guitar journey. There are many wiped out six banger guitar players in the ditch along the path you are taking. I have been there lots of times. Don't pay any attention to them. Many get back up and either high tail it back to the safety of a Strat and some sort of fuzz device and some continue on like the rest of us trying our best. It is never ending.

Touche' Bill!

(But ya oughtta just say what ya mean!

)

Dennis
who has gone to practice his PSG....

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 19 May 2007 12:37 pm

Also the cumbus is not really a Turkish banjo. It was designed as a poor mans oud, it being a metal pot with a plastic head and with a neck attached to it. The instrument is still used a lot in that region. I have a fretless one and enjoy playing it on sessions for that sound.

yeah, I know. I try to explain it but most people don't know what an oud is. I bought both my oud and my cumbus in Turkey. Mine has frets and sounds amazing. I tune it to DADGAD.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 20 May 2007 3:41 am

For some reason, I think an Oud should be tuned BAGDAD.

I think you're right to take your time in buying a steel; I'd avoid eBay.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 20 May 2007 4:00 pm

Charlie McDonald wrote:For some reason, I think an Oud should be tuned BAGDAD.

THAT is funny!!

James Mayer · Post by **James Mayer** » 29 May 2007 7:35 am

Well, after much deliberation, I've made a decision. I sent my lap steel to my friend to have him retrofit the benders. It'll be much cheaper and will probably be my "half-way" step into the world of pedal steel. I can't even find time to try out my friend's psg so I don't see having time to learn to play psg, at this point.

I think someone here mentioned that the benders will inhibit my hand movement. One bender will knee-activated (second string, full step) and the other will use the right elbow (third string, half-step). I spent about 2 minutes on one of these and I didn't feel inhibited at all.

They guy who is performing the mod performs with this setup on his steel and he pulled off some convincing pedal steel sounds. He uses open E (EBEG#BE, bass to treble) and suggests that I do the same. He mentioned something about a typical steel lick being E played against B that can be raised to C#. Makes sense to me, but I don't know what other options are out there.

Does anyone else have any opinions on what tuning to use if I have the bending options described above?

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 29 May 2007 10:11 am

James Mayer wrote:He mentioned something about a typical steel lick being E played against B that can be raised to C#. Makes sense to me, but I don't know what other options are out there.

James, that change is a good one. It's what one of the three pedals does on an E9 pedal steel (the A-pedal). That whole tone change really defines the pedal steel sound.

FYI, if you set up your other change to be G# to A, then you have the equivalent of the B-pedal change on a pedal steel.

A huge amount of E9 playing that you hear is done with those two changes. For example, if you use both changes together, you go from a I chord to a IV. (E to A).

I know you're not playing traditional stuff so this may not matter in your situation... but if you're trying to emulate PSG on a lap steel, slowly bending that I-to-IV change is a commonly-used change. It's at the heart of a lot of the PSG playing you've heard over the years, and most listeners really identify that as the signature "pedal steel sound."

Good luck, and keep us posted as to what you come up with.

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Need advice on first pedal steel

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