tuning question

Jeff Hogsten · Post by **Jeff Hogsten** » 28 Apr 2007 5:26 pm

I used the Jeff Newman chart for years. I just got another steel after having to sell the one I had about two years ago. Right before I did I tried tuning straight up after reading about it on here and seeing emmons did it now and liked it better my question is. Dont they still temper the thirds some. How much if so. Any info is apprectiated

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Apr 2007 7:23 pm

Buddy Emmons (Forum, May 2, 2002) wrote:
I tune my thirds to 438 just to compensate for a possible drift of that note a cent or two sharp.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 29 Apr 2007 7:58 am

Jeff Hogsten wrote:I used the Jeff Newman chart for years. I just got another steel after having to sell the one I had about two years ago. Right before I did I tried tuning straight up after reading about it on here and seeing emmons did it now and liked it better my question is. Dont they still temper the thirds some. How much if so. Any info is apprectiated

I don't believe that Buddy tunes straight up, even if he swears an affidavit on a stack of Bibles. It doesn't sound like equal temperament to me. His "Harmonic Tune-Up" is still in print, and it's still a best-seller from the Forum catalog.

Trust your ears.

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 1 May 2007 2:30 pm

Thanks b0b i'm with you my friend . b0b i also use the tuning for the C6-th that you suggested and it sounds great to me . Thanks for sharing that with us . I just cant see any steel guitar being in tune straight up to '' 440 '' ! However i do know some that swear by it ??? Some folks use all kinds of tunings these days . I have gone back to tuning my ''E's '' to 440 with A&B pedals down then tune the rest by ear on my E-9th tunings . I also have tried all the tunings that i could find but somehow wasn't happy with them . They no doubt work for some players but for me ''not at this time '' . G.P.

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 1 May 2007 3:40 pm

Hey Gary, Forum member, "Will Sevy" posted a tuning method on Nov 25, 2005, that I still use today and I thank him very much for it. He tunes everything (E9th) to 440 except strings 2,3 and 6 which are tuned 10 cents flat...Knee lever raising strings 4 & 8 to F are tuned 18 cents flat and Knee lever lowering strings 4 & 8 are tuned 10 cents flat....this method works for me...I don't even use my Peterson tuner anymore, just my Chromatic tuner with the cents scale.

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 1 May 2007 4:30 pm

I tune almost straight up. After I do I tweak my pedals and remember this"Don't touch Open Strings" when you tune pedal/levers. No beats.

Michael Douchette · Post by **Michael Douchette** » 1 May 2007 6:10 pm

Brad Malone wrote:He tunes everything (E9th) to 440 except strings 2,3 and 6 which are tuned 10 cents flat...Knee lever raising strings 4 & 8 to F are tuned 18 cents flat and Knee lever lowering strings 4 & 8 are tuned 10 cents flat...

Wow... I don't even know how to respond...

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 2 May 2007 7:17 am

Brad Malone wrote:He tunes everything (E9th) to 440 except strings 2,3 and 6 which are tuned 10 cents flat...Knee lever raising strings 4 & 8 to F are tuned 18 cents flat and Knee lever lowering strings 4 & 8 are tuned 10 cents flat...

Actually, that sounds in the ballpark to me, except that you'd have to aim high of the frets to sound in tune with a band.

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 4 May 2007 10:17 am

I've had good luck with my S-12 by just tuning anything with a sharp (#) to 438 everything else is 440 with the exception of the E to F raises, they're 438 also. This includes open tuning and pedal changes. I used the old Jeff Newman chart for years and this works much better for me in a band situation...........JH in Va.

Leon Roberts · Post by **Leon Roberts** » 4 May 2007 2:37 pm

I think that Buddy posted on this forum that he tunes as straight up as the guitar will allow. That's good nnough for me.

It might be possible that the guitar will determine what + or - might be on what ever tuner or that golden ear you have?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 May 2007 4:14 pm

Charts and tuners and Ouija boards only get you in the ballpark. The aim, always, should be to tune it so it sounds good!

If it doesn't sound good, you're lost...completely and utterly - no matter WHAT the tuner says.

When people come to hear you play, they are listening, they're not checking a tuner or comparing you with somebody's chart.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 5 May 2007 5:46 am

Jerry Hayes wrote:I've had good luck with my S-12 by just tuning anything with a sharp (#) to 438 everything else is 440 with the exception of the E to F raises, they're 438 also.

That's the method Mike Perlowin uses, I believe.
It's certainly a good starting point.

What's interesting is this quote from b0b's abstract on "Harmonic Tune-Up":
'This is the "just" tuning method in its truest form.'
Doesn't sound ET to me.

Archie Nicol R.I.P. · Post by **Archie Nicol R.I.P.** » 5 May 2007 7:19 am

If we could all tune to this standard, we'd all be very happy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEYdoNRW ... ed&search=

Arch.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 5 May 2007 7:33 am

Charlie McDonald wrote:What's interesting is this quote from b0b's abstract on "Harmonic Tune-Up":
'This is the "just" tuning method in its truest form.'
Doesn't sound ET to me.

I can't take the credit. Tom Bradshaw wrote that description of Buddy's "Harmonic Tune-Up" lesson.

Harmonic Tune-Up

Buddy takes you through his approach to tuning up an E9th neck (open and with pedals). He advocates utilizing the natural harmonic points on your guitar's neck and tuning the guitar to itself. This is the "just" tuning method in its truest form. By using unison-pitched harmonics, the oscillating "beats" between the two sounding notes can be eliminated to achieve a finely-tuned sound. Buddy reveals where all the proper harmonic positions are for you. Because of the need to play in tune at so many positions and in numerous chords, he reveals all those proper harmonic points that provide the best overall sound as is possible for all your strings and pedal changes. He recognizes that "splitting differences" is necessary for a pedal steel to be "in tune" in every chord and pedal position.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 May 2007 10:43 am

In all fairness, everyone should know there are two tuning "eras" for BE. He originally tuned JI (Just Intonation) by the harmonic method. But as his copedent got more complicated and he became more adventuresome with it, he gave up on that and began to tune almost straight up ET (Equal Temper), but lowering his thirds down to 438, which is about half-way between JI and ET.

On E9 the G#s on strings 3 and 6 are the 3rds of the E chord, and D# on string 2 is the third of the B chord. So BE's modern method is the same as Perlowin's and Jerry Hayes. The F#s on strings 1 and 7 are the 5ths of the B chord, and so want to be staight up 440. But they are the roots of the F# minor chord with the B and C pedals, and JI wants that to be 16 cents (4 Hz, or 436) flat of the minor 3rd (A) on strings 3 and 6 with the B pedal. So 438 nicely splits that difference. Therefore, tuning the #'s of E9 to 438 is a nice "in-between" or "tampered" tuning.

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 7 May 2007 2:06 pm

WOW , hmmm !

Dustin Rigsby · Post by **Dustin Rigsby** » 7 May 2007 2:28 pm

Tuning Schmooning...I heard a story about Jeff Beck during the Yardbirds days that they coundn't even get him to tune his guitar !

LOL

Ken Metcalf · Post by **Ken Metcalf** » 7 May 2007 6:24 pm

Sitting in a practice area by your self you can temper to your ears delight.

With a band it is prudent to go straiter up but not all the way and different bands differ.

I like the peterson to keep it simple.

Ken

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 7 May 2007 7:27 pm

I thought Big E tuned his low E, D and B to 442, and the higher strings straight up. I like tuning my big E to 442 and the rest of the guitar accordingly keeping in mind that my F#s are fifths out of B. Seems to work for me, but heck, I can't even hold my bar straight.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 7 May 2007 9:42 pm

I think Buddy tunes his guitar until it sounds in tune, then he plays it very well. I agree with Donny.... If it doesn't sound in tune, it isn't.
End of Report. JM2cents

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 8 May 2007 2:54 am

Joe Drivdahl wrote:I thought Big E tuned his low E, D and B to 442, and the higher strings straight up. I like tuning my big E to 442 and the rest of the guitar accordingly keeping in mind that my F#s are fifths out of B. Seems to work for me, but heck, I can't even hold my bar straight.

An E to E octave two Hz short of pure? I can't imagine.
On a piano, the lower you go, the flatter it gets because of the way our ears hear.

The problem with JI is that somewhere there's going to be a glitch, or a 'comma,' to end up with a pure octave. F# seems to be the common place where something has to shift, to compensate for its intemperate nature. That seems to be the reason there are frequently compensators for F#.

Still, I try. Last time I tuned, I checked it and I had the sharped notes about 2 Hz flat and the rest straight up, more or less.

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 8 May 2007 4:55 am

This is the chart I was thinking about:

http://www.jeffran.com/tuning.php

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 8 May 2007 6:47 am

That looks about right.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 8 May 2007 6:50 am

The problem with JI is that somewhere there's going to be a glitch, or a 'comma,' to end up with a pure octave.

This is not an issue on the pedal steel because all the sweet intervals can be moved to wherever we want them with the bar. The piano's "wolftone" modulation issues do not exist on our instrument.

What it comes down to is ear training and bar control if you want to play in tune. With students I let them tune any way they want. Many tune straight up and then after a while if it starts to sound sour to them I have them check out the Newman chart. Once they are comfortable with the instrument I just have them tune by ear. Some guys end up tuning pretty straight up and it works for them. Again, the key to good intonation is with your ability to listen, your understanding of what you are hearing and then being able to instantly adjust the bar to what you are hearing.

David Fields · Post by **David Fields** » 8 May 2007 10:09 am

I guess I don't understand, and please excuse my stupidity, but why not tune all strings to standard 440? The guitars and fiddles do. I saw Jeff Newmans tuning, and now I am confused. Tell me more!

Dave

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