Problematical Pitch Interpretations

Brian LeBlanc · Post by **Brian LeBlanc** » 12 Apr 2007 12:23 pm

Its the Nut...

behind the bar...

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 12 Apr 2007 1:03 pm

Good thing Ira didn't play steel---He'da hurt hisself!!!

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 12 Apr 2007 6:35 pm

Problematical Pitch Interpretations of the E9 tuning have baffled the greatest minds of our time.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 12 Apr 2007 6:38 pm

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Apr 2007 7:56 pm

It's the nut.
The nut behind the wheel.

Operator error. LOL love that one.

If the sole reference for pitch is the lines down below,
then there's no CHANCE, you won't be pitchy.
It's just a reference to get in the ball park,
your ears gotta do the heavy lifting.

I like BIG chords, and when they sound wrong,
it's my doing.. and/or my RKR needing replacement...

If you can get your steel tuned to how you like it,
then it's up ta you and da bar.

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 13 Apr 2007 1:05 am

Bill your beating yourself up worse than Nancy Grace, take viagra and rub it across the strings this will help to increase sustain, and also improve tone by 10 fold. enjoy.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 13 Apr 2007 1:48 am

You guys were driving me nuts so I switched to bongos, and now all is bliss:
http://www.transcendentalbongo.com/

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 13 Apr 2007 3:05 am

Thanks Doug, Stephen, and contributers to this thread. "Face it with a grin." I think... maybe! The mechanical influences, temperature changes, etc. casts a shadow of doubt that overrides tractability. The notion that perfectly tuned instruments remain so, is questionable. I refer to a man with great respect (Chet Atkins), who experienced tuning changes on guitars that were
equipped with the Bigsby lever. Guitar strings are balky, like a mule. The strings may whip a hurting over the hands, by snapping like a bowstring. The same rule applies to the tuning enigma. As a diversion, I've considered the lack of reverberation, that is a typical feature of steel guitars. Exquisite tones sent out by string vibrations, are diminished considerably, through a lack of resonation. These thoughts point to the probability of "lost" tones that emanate upward, above the strings, as part of an unknown sound transmission. Vibrating strings regulate pitch frequencies, to lesser degrees, futhering a need to satisfy a need to compare pitch irregularities of strings set in motion.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 13 Apr 2007 6:05 am

Wow, Albert's copedant... whooda thunk it? He had a copedant before the word was invented. Doug that is classic

Shoulda been included in the back of Winnie's book...

Here we have Mr. E explaining how to correct for mistuning by having the observer move at a relative constant velocity towards or away from the steel to take advantage of the Doppler effect to accomplish pitch correction. Michelson-Morely be dashed...The red shift is really just a mis-tuned C-pedal (or someone used a wound 6th string again...)

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Apr 2007 9:02 am

Here's something I said over on a thread about Sonny Landreth's tuning. Maybe some of it is relevant here:

David Doggett wrote:...I thought maybe I heard something that wasn't pure JI when he first hit some of the single strings, but it went by too fast for me to pinpoint it. And as soon as he started the vibrato it sounded fine. It all sounded good when he was playing phrases. He may have had his 3rds nudged toward ET the way a lot of us do. And/or he may be pulling or squeezing the fretted strings to his ear.

I think some of it is a phenomenon frequently commented about. Many times I have played something that sounded fine, but when I stopped and checked my tuning carefully there was something a little off. But I could make it sound okay when I played. And I have often been swapping licks with another steeler, and they sounded fine while playing; but if I went over and checked their tuning, things were way off from the way I would have tuned. Even straight up ET, which I can't stand when tuning, can sounds okay when someone who is use to tuning that way plays. With everything moving, and vibrato on the held notes and chords, a lot of stuff blends okay that you wouldn't expect to if you stopped and checked the tuning carefully

That's one reason I don't obsess over tuning. In spite of my heavy participation in the tuning discussions here on the Forum just for the theoretical aspects of it, when I play, I tune quickly and reasonably close, and then just play. It's usually just not worth it to try to get everything absolutely perfect. "Close enough" usually works fine once you start playing.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 13 Apr 2007 12:05 pm

Unwarranted pitch hullabaloo signals a long overdue response. Strangely enough, recorded music played on stringed instruments fall short of playing melodies "exactly" as written. The reason for making a blunt statement that questions the intent of artists abounding in recording studios is worthy of consideration. There is one obstacle preventing perfect pitch, even after so-called "touch up" tuning prior to final sound tracks. Simply put, the playing action that must be overcome to attain proper fretting instantly negates the "perfectly" tuned instrument. Intense volume swells heard in much of today's country music, for example, resounds as a homogenous mass of overdubbing, making it difficult to hear the finer points of definition. When the ability to hear what is going on in a recording is muffled, I'll move on, and try to become more selective. BTW, friction created by gliding over the strings, can lower pitches, allowing for a reasonable assumption that there are incremental detunings during recording sessions. Whenever heat is applied to steel, it expands. It's only natural to suspect detuning to occur as a result of friction caused by the fingers on the strings while playing.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 14 Apr 2007 12:30 am

I've revised the gibberish in the last two entries by removing irrelevant subject matter. The fluctuations by those participating and responding to posted articles, is a marker that presentations of differences, must contain material of interest to the readership. The forum is quite like the morning newspaper. The expectation of learning something new, is compatible with musical endeavors.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 14 Apr 2007 12:52 am

Hey, he said "blunt" and "friction!" I LOVE blunts and friction!!!!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Apr 2007 3:46 am

Blunt friction :
Is that implying 'vacuous frottage'?

Interesting that being
direct and to the point
can be considered blunt...

While being astute and verbose
can be considered well rounded.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 14 Apr 2007 5:55 am

Acute perspicacity will reveal that there is no such word as 'frotage.'
One must be careful when bandying words about.
A cute girl, on the other hand....

All at once you may discover that a particular instrument "resists" tuning standards. Visual approaches to a problem instrument by utilizing detailed measurements may offer a dawning of a new awakening.

Bill, only when money is no object does an instrument offer all it can in this area. The majority of pianos and all pedal steels have scale restrictions that defy perfection. The very best steel manufacturers have risen to the task in counteracting pitch deficiency, and electronic measurements have led them there, where once such methods were not available, but that does not suggest that only by electronic means can a steel be tuned.

Doesn't that suggest that the trusted ear has limitations?

The ear has fewer limitations than the instrument.
Dave Brubeck onced checked out a piano prior to rehearsal and announced that the A was 'a hair sharp' (it was delivered cold). I checked him out, and it was indeed 2 cents sharp. That comes not from a sense of perfect pitch but being used to hearing pianos that are well-tuned.
The ear is the final arbiter. And still, perfection will be denied.
Having to work around what you've got is still the rule of the day; there will always be some compensation somewhere, and it need not ruin the performance.

Early in my career I tuned for James Toco and heard his performance that night. One note continued to stand out to my ear--I winced each time he played it. (Yet I got a school contract as a result of the tuning.) One can obsess over the details; but more pleasurable is the enjoyment of the music, suspending the search for perfection in favor of the moment.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Apr 2007 9:40 am

I'll admit to dyslexia, but not lack of perspicacity :

frot·tage /frɔˈtɑʒ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fraw-tahzh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a technique in the visual arts of obtaining textural effects or images by rubbing lead, chalk, charcoal, etc., over paper laid on a granular or relieflike surface. Compare rubbing (def. 2).
2. a work of art containing shapes and textures produced by frottage.
3. the practice of getting sexual stimulation and satisfaction by rubbing against something, esp. another person.
[Origin: 1930–35; < F, equiv. to frott(er) to rub (of uncert. orig.) + -age
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 14 Apr 2007 3:48 pm

David, The dictionary that I've found to be most reliable, is The Tenth Edition of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate publication. I checked for entries from your reply, and my references imply that a design is produced by rubbing charcoal on a piece of paper that is placed over an object. I'm satisfied to not explore 21st century diversities that risk censure by undertaking to expand on adequate definitions. I prefer to use caution by checking carefully where the old and new merge, as a consequence to unrestrained liberties.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Apr 2007 9:38 pm

Yes, libertines are often restrained, in practice!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 15 Apr 2007 1:50 am

David Donald,

Finding a more relaxed approach to rehearsals, is as important as the significance of the practice session. Straying away from advantageous conformities, or getting the jaws uptight, may obstruct a progressive stance programmed to overtake difficult situations. Patience is the always the prerequisite in furthering and expanded musical knowledge.The determination to advance to new levels of expertise warrants recognition. Flipping the coin and slipping away from the elemental cognitions, fuels a progressively nullifying effect in lessons learned. Essentially, a cultivated attitude tends to negate negative thinking processes. It is possible to reach a point where positive thoughts restrict the acceptance of failures. Too many irons in the fire, may very well contribute to the lack of appreciable successes.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 15 Apr 2007 2:22 am

Charlie,

Thanks for the very interesting reply. It helps to lend credence and insight to the differences that focus upon tuning musical instruments. I recall reading a book years ago, that emphasized the difficulties of tuning pianos. I believe it stated that there were only a few tuners capable of properly tuning the instrument. It's remarkable how some memories never fade, while others leave no traces of recall. I appreciate the information on different aspects of tunings.