ThePush/Pull mystery

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 29 Mar 2007 5:39 am

Yes, I think it's time to get rid of all that "outdated" equipment, especially those Stradivarius violins.

Who wants to mess with that old junk anyway.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 29 Mar 2007 5:40 am

duplicate

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 29 Mar 2007 6:20 am

[quote="David Mason"]

My point being, people like Reece Anderson, Bud Carter and others have actually spent some time wondering about "what makes a steel guitar sound good?", but they will never, ever please some people because of what's stuck between their ears. You could make a steel guitar out of bell brass, rubies, Martian meteorites and petrified dragon-snot and it would still never, ever be good enough for some people. Because of what's stuck between their ears.

Hi David,
Agreed to a point. Thing is, I was not really posting the question of How the Steel sounds to different people. My question was "What is it that makes the PP sound unique?" And the answer is unanimous among pro, semi-pro, and amateur: The PP sound IS unique. References to dragon snot is really totally off the topic.

I did get several great explanations. Explanations to help me further my research. Great explanations from top pros.
regards
Bent

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 29 Mar 2007 7:32 am

Granted, the Emmons was one of only several brands in competition during the 60's - which did make it stand out. But its quality was not only a matter of limited comparison. Fortunately, 40 years later (a couple of weeks ago) I had a chance to hear a few Emmons push-pulls on the mainstage in Dallas, in the midst of an array of newer brands. I can truly say without a doubt that the push-pull guitars had a magical sound that the others did not possess. I will admit that much of the music played on the newer guitars was magical, but the sound certainly did not compare to the deep, rich sparkle and shimmer (the closest I can come to a word description) of the push-pull.

I've had some in-depth conversations with experienced Emmons users who swear by this guitar and declare its superiority not only in terms of sound, but in tuning stability and mechanical function as well. I'm beginning to believe that a push-pull is not the can of worms it's reputed to be. If one does not take the time to learn the ins and outs of the unique tuning mechanism, then the guitar should certainly not be blamed. From what I've heard and read, the changer seems pretty straight-forward to me; you need to heed advice and instruction from those who know how this guitar functions. When I buy a push-pull, the first thing I will do is educate myself on how to tune and maintain it.

And concerning its possible copedent limitations, IMHO there's a lot of overkill going on underneath some guitars these days anyway; much of what we know today as classic steel tracks were done with practically nothing dangling from the undercarriage.

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 29 Mar 2007 8:10 am

Yes, I think it's time to get rid of all that "outdated" equipment, especially those Stradivarius violins.

Well, thats not a very constructive analogy. A Stradivarius violin does not have a loose, clanky undercarriage that needs constant attention.

Who wants to mess with that old junk anyway.

Not me, I rather spend time actually playing the guitar than working to keep it in tune!

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 29 Mar 2007 8:38 am

I hear you Curt, and sometimes feel that way about mine, but man, when you get a PP working right, there really is nothing like it that I have heard.

A few months ago, I walked into the Rodeo Bar here in New York to hear John Widgren and Western Caravan, and before I saw his steel, I thought, that's funny, John brought his push pull to this gig (there was a case or something obscuring the front of the steel), I got a closer look and saw he was playing his Zum hybrid, you could have knocked me over. So as someone who really does believe in the whole push pull mojo thing, I will say that Bruce Zumsteg is clearly up to something.

The way an old Emmons feels when you play it is a really magical thing, the pedals, knees, the higher string tension (love that) and the way an old push pull doesn't jump around when you use the RKR. The way the whole guitar vibrates, even when you play up high, for me that's the thing, above the 12th fret, there's nothing like a push pull, for me. I think every steel player should at least play one once, it's like playing an old Tele through a old Bassman or something, or driving an old Ford tractor, if you're into that sort of thing.

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 29 Mar 2007 8:48 am

Thge only reason I'm chimein in here is that I'm currently looking for a doubble neck and I have a Houston freind (who shall be nameless)who has a P/P and keeps telling me that nothing but an Emmons else will work. Though he and I are huge Emmons fans, the problem I have with paying for a P/P is that, most are 20yrs old or better and the fact that when they were new I never paid over 2K for one. Now its seems they're doubble that in some cases. He says its about the tone but, I don't see how that can be cause everyone hears different. I guess my question is with so many outstanding guitars to day, wouldn't it be better to try to match the original tone? J.C.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Mar 2007 9:06 am

Regarding the mechanics, we keep hearing what seem like exact opposite comments: 1) a p/p is a lot of trouble to adjust and tune and maintain; 2) if it is set up right in the first place it is very stable and carefree. The seeming contradiction comes from the fact that there is some truth in both of these.

If you use a simple standard copedant, never change it, and buy the instrument already well adjusted by the factory or a p/p wizard, then the tuning and adjustment may be stable and carefree for quite a long time. If nothing breaks or falls loose, you might not notice any problems for a long while.

If you get the instrument in poor adjustment for your purposes, possibly not playing in tune and returning properly, and/or you want to experiment with copedant changes, either moving around the ones already on it, or adding more, then you have your hands full. There are some published "secrets" (such as tuning the changer before setting up and adjusting the pull rods) that are not obvious. Even knowing the secrets you will spend a lot of time under the hood. You will either emerge a wizard yourself, blithely telling the less fortunate that it's all easy if you know what you are doing; or you will get frustrated and move on to a modern all-pull with great relief. If you are not a wizard, God help you if you have a mechanical or tuning problem during a live performance, studio session, or on the road.

So there are two groups of previous or present p/p owners out there: those who have been bitten bad and sworn off of them no matter how great their tone is, and the wizards and carefree users asking what the problem is. They are both partially right and partially wrong.

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 29 Mar 2007 10:09 am

David, I mostly, agree with you up to the part where wrote "If nothing breaks or falls loose, you might not notice any problems for a long while." A "long while" is very long. I've owned three push/pulls over the years. I still have a D10 (my only guitar, currently). Out of twenty-some years of playing push-pulls exclusively, I've only had one broken part. One of the wire connectors between the pull rod and raise finger broke on my S12, during a sound check before a gig. I was able to fix it without problems by fashioning a duplicate from a paperclip. The paperclip held up fine until I obtained an actual replacement part from Bobbe S. Other than that, all of my push-pulls remained consistent in playability/tunability, as the day I bought them. The only time their characteristics changed was when I had them adjusted by push/pull mechanics.

As far as the adjustments are concerned, I've had each of my Emmons push/pulls adjusted ONCE: I screwed up the factory setup on my first Emmons because I had no idea how to adjust a push/pull mechanism...the fact was, the factory setup was fine. I just didn't understand the mechanism and I thought I could adjust it better than the builder (lol). After my "adjustment" was corrected I played that guitar for 17 years without a problem. I had my other two push/pulls adjusted by Bobby Bowman, because he has the ability to fine tune the push/pull undercarriage to a level of playablilty I have never experienced before. With that said. Once these adjustments were made the guitars REMAINED adjusted. With my current push/pull, I just make sure all set screws, cap screws, etc. are snugged down, and I periodically put a spot of light machine oil here and there. The guitar NEVER needs anything else, except changing strings.

Since my SNAFU with my first push/pull, I've taught myself to understand the mechanics of the changer. I've also had a few experts like Bobby Bowman explain the finer nuances of the push/pull mechanism. It's not more complicated to understand than an all pull. It's different, but actually, very straight forward, in design. And once you understand the difference it's not hard to do adjustments (if they're actually needed). In some cases, it might be more time consuming (especially if a change involves re-rodding), but it isn't more complicated to understand.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 29 Mar 2007 10:21 am

David Doggett wrote:If you use a simple standard copedant, never change it, and buy the instrument already well adjusted by the factory or a p/p wizard, then the tuning and adjustment may be stable and carefree for quite a long time. If nothing breaks or falls loose, you might not notice any problems for a long while.

I guess that I fall in to this category. My PP is very standard D10, 8 & 4.

I've not had to tune the changer in nearly a year, just change strings once in a while, tune at the key head and play. Yes, I do let it acclimate at each gig and then tune, but at the keyhead only, and normally once is enough for the night.

There is enough music in the simple set up to keep me busy for quite a long while. I don't need or want to change, add, replace, try setups on a daily or weekly, or even an annual basis. If I did, I'm sure that I'd prefer a different animal.

I DO LOVE the sound!

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 29 Mar 2007 11:00 am

I've had both experiences, but by far more along the lines of David Collins' post. Have the guitar set up right to begin with, don't mess with it, and it won't turn on you.

Again, I'll reiterate: If you make a bunch of changes frequently, you'd be much better served by an all-pull guitar.

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 29 Mar 2007 11:16 am

Gee, Herb, you always explain things more efficiently than I can.

I guess I should have said: If your p/p is screwed up it, will remain screwed up. And if it's well adjusted, it will remain well adjusted. The bottom line: it won't screw-up on it's own.

keep on pickin', y'all!
Glenn

Gordon Sharp · Post by **Gordon Sharp** » 29 Mar 2007 1:00 pm

I dont know what the mystery is but I have 2 LDG guitars 1 Sierra 1 bMi 1 PRO 3,BUT NONE SOUND AS GOOD AS MY OLD BLACK 67 PP. Gordon Sharp Kingston Tenn.

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 29 Mar 2007 3:08 pm

I have 2 PP's, 75D-10 & 72SD-12, both guitars have been set up by "experts" and play perfectly.
Not because I don't understand how to do it, just like I know how to do a brake job on my truck, but I choose to have them done by someone who is an "expert"
JE:-)>.

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 29 Mar 2007 5:19 pm

person would have to be deaf not to hear a beauty of a push pull tone.Old,complicated,noisy,clanky and I don`t know what else, buy an all pull,any all pull ,you can`t hear a good tone anyway.

Db

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 29 Mar 2007 5:41 pm

The way the whole guitar vibrates, even when you play up high, for me that's the thing, above the 12th fret, there's nothing like a push pull, for me.

Me too! I've been playing Emmons p/p for 36 years. It's the only steel sound I know!

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 30 Mar 2007 7:10 am

I have rebuilt quite a few p/p's and what I really find interesting is the fact that you don't even have to have the pedals or levers hooked up to the guitar to tune the changer. You can do all the adjustments to the changer by moving the fingers by hand after you string it up. This is the key to the p/p sound. The adjusting screws on the changer fingers make solid contact with the body of the guitar and are not "dangling" out in space as with all pull guitars.

Dave Diehl · Post by **Dave Diehl** » 2 Apr 2007 3:52 pm

Jerry Roller deserves most of the credit for this one but Herb is right.... don't mess with it and it'll serve you for a long time. They are more complicated that an all pull to work on but they are real workhorses if the tone wasn't great, folks like Bobbe Seymore would not rave about them.

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