Blues and Rock Music at a major Steel Convention

[Dan Tyack]

No AB Pedals allowed

Actually, both the A and B pedals as well as the C and all the knee levers are useful in playing blues. In the following examples (from my Blackened Toast CD) I believe I used 3 pedals and at least 2 or three knee levers.

Hoochie Coochie Man
You got to Blame Somebody

Now you can do quite a bit with no pedals on a lap steel or pedal steel, but that's a horse of a different color.

[Tony Prior]

Dan, great track, now thats what I'm talkin' about...

yeh..I know, the "NO AB PEDS" thing..but you know what I meant..

I jump from PEDS IN to PEDS Out positions all the time for these Blues tunes...

very classy track..

you rock

t

[Brint Hannay]

Dan, That is some great blues steel!

[Dan Tyack]

Thanks!

I added a track above.

Ironically, when I play the pedal steel in a 'blues guitar' mode I find myself using pedals a lot. When I play more in the 'Sacred Steel' style, I tend not to use them (and tend to gravitate to the lap steel).

[Brint Hannay]

in classical theory, the II chord is looked at as
the "V of the V chord"

Only if the II is major. If it's minor, it's the II of the V chord.

Technically, John is right--If it's minor, it would be written " ii ".

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Dan, That is some great blues steel!

What he said. In spades.

[Dan Tyack]

I should mention that there is guitar and steel on those tracks, so as not to ignore the great blues playing of Rod Cook. I figured you guys could tell the difference.

[Joe Goldmark]

The main problem with musical diversity at these shows is that you usually have to play with the house band. They're all excellent musicians, but how are they going to back me up, for example, when I want to play 3rd Stone From the Sun, Wacky Walk (a funky original), Highlife (an African influenced original), etc.? Even with good charts, they can't do this.

When I played in St. Louis in 2001, I brought my guys (the 10 Gallon Cats), and people said they enjoyed it (as Dan & Stu say, "Nobody Got Hurt!"). The diversity has to come with the tune selection because steel guitarists tend to sound a lot alike, especially when the good ones play country. Also, since it seems like nobody's taken the Sneaky Pete road, and adopted that sound, most steelers are shooting for pretty much the same tone.

I'm interested in how the house band backed up Dan Tyack in Mesa, and how Dan planned and executed his set with the band.

When I go to these shows, I'm thrilled when a steeler plays a decent pop or rock tune that pulls us away from the "Mansion On the Hill" syndrome. However, I still get a kick out of hearing the good players play whatever they do play, and I don't expect much diversity. BTW, the crowd at the TSGA was probably 90% over 60 years old. And, for whatever reason, a lot of the great Texas players weren't there (R. Reinhardt, R. Price, G. Carpenter, T. Detamore, D. Overby, R. Davis, etc.).

Joe

[Tony Prior]

Joe brings up a very valid point, and it's not just about the House bands at Steel Shows.

Many times we play with or fill in with good traditional Country folks who sing a great song and can play the traditional I,IV and V chords on there GEE'tars. But when it comes time to play an out of the box tune..THEY can't back you up so we don't play the tune. Many times these venues have young folks in attendance and all they hear is WHINEY Country from the guy sittin at the Steel.

Many Country bands that are gigging out think a rock song is a fast Country song... I think the issue of bringing forward a different style such as discussed here, comes from the players overall ROOTS.

IF we are playing in a band with members that have similar ROOTS then it's wide open, if we are playing in a band where you are the only one with ROOTS that deep then thats a tuff one to overcome.

back to James initial point, a BLUES room, not necessarily a BLUES set...if you are gonna do a BLUES set you had better bring your own Blues Brothers to back you up...

[Jim Sliff]

Also, since it seems like nobody's taken the Sneaky Pete road, and adopted that sound, most steelers are shooting for pretty much the same tone.

From the videos and recordings I've heard of shows, that is very true. And based on recent forum discussions, the makers are generally all shooting for the same tone as well. There are a few of us mavericks out there who either play Fenders or twist our modern guitars to play Sneaky-like; but I think two issues exist with that - either the players are too new to really be able to play well enough for that kind of venue (I'd fall in that group, having only limited steel experience) or just aren't all that interested, and won't be until the atmosphere changes somewhat.

The point Joe and Tony make is really well taken - Having done guitar clinics with "house" bands, I would have to adjust what I was going to do based on what THEY could handle. For example, a backup group of rockers would have a hard time with me doing a country stringbender demo, since "country" to them was The Allman Brothers...and country guys would implode trying to back a demo of Leslie sounds on "Cold Shot".

So I agree - a blues or rock "show" isn't really the idea - a "day" is, with guys bringing their own bands, or at least choosing backup guys from a list of people with the right resume.

I like the "roots" terminology, and that's where it's really at - and evidenced by Joe Wright's Australian show I saw, where the backup band was game for anything, having a great time...but obviously had NO "roots" in rock or blues.

Every description of the crowd and backup "house" bands at shows makes me less inclined to attend one - OTOH, tell me Joe Goldmark will be playing with his own backup instead of Russ Wever on bass and the other usual guys, and I'm looking for deals on plane tickets....

And I don't think I'm in a small group, either. There are a lot of players both on and off the forum who ignore shows due to the preponderance of 1) the same old guys being propped up behind their guitars year after year, 2) too much blue hair in the crowd, and 3) either hands over the ears or people heading for the exits during any rock songs.

It's much like the bluegrass festivals of the 70's - it all falls back on the small group of folks who RUN the shows. In those days, if you didn't wear all the same shirts or played a bluegrass version of a rock song, you were a pariah. Having been booked for a 45-minute block once on the basis of a demo tape, my old band was immediately accosted for our lack of matching attire and long hair, but begrudgingly let on stage...for *three* songs, with "19th Nervous Breakdown" causing the announcer to make a sudden appearance thanking us for our fine set as we got the "hook".

The guys who run the shows nowdays, especially St. Louis, I would guess don't know squat about rock or blues and would need to bring in someone who does to plan that part of the show. And the likelihood of that happening right now is probably one notch above zero.

So until that changes, I think you'll likely have the same thing - country players backed by country house bands throwing in a lightweight rock tune now and then as a novelty to show that they're "cool". And it works among the crowd that attends (at least the ones not offended by it), but those with a strong rock background who watch performances like that see right through the facade, and to them it just doesn't work.

[Keith Cordell]

Even if you got a backing band with some rock background, the backline is all Peavey- a N112 is NOT a rock amp- and since you are playing pretty much for free, the one thing you'd want is a positive audience response; the audinces at the conventions I've been to average in the higher end of the age brackets, and they are there to hear weepy ballads. I cna only imagine the audience response if someone broke out a real rocker- yikes, and find the hot dog cart!For the trouble it takes to get there, set up, get the band on point and play the set, you get no money or very little, poor audience response and a sore back. If it seemed that there was some hope of achieving something, I could see it, but it seems unlikely for the time being.

[Jim Sliff]

Even if you got a backing band with some rock background, the backline is all Peavey

That whole "backline" philosophy would have to change as well, for sure. Players bringing their own bands would have to bring their own equipment or at least specify what needs to be on hand in a rider.

But that was good point to bring up - the equipment in place is wrong for rock/blues, and some changes in that would have to be made.

[James Morehead]

Well, These are some very valid obstacles, and you are all right, that it won't work until there are changes. And that's really what this thread is about---exposong MORE people to the steel guitar by offering a wider range of music.

This concept won't work if the country guys won't bend a little.

This concept also won't work if you rock/blues guys won't try, either. If you won't be willing to play and try until you are GUARANTEED complete overwhelming success the first time out, you will never affect any change at all. It may take time and repeated exposier to allow "acceptance" to grow. I doubt it would take that much time. Joe wright tends to get a standing ovation--it don't get better than that!!

If you don't think the cause is worth the effort, unless you have perfect equipment and a perfect backup band, then it surely won't work at all. Our crowds at most steel conventions are not that tough--they are pretty forgiving.

What I have heard so far is why this won't possibly work. Very little about how it can work. Come on rockers' stand up and be counted and make a difference!!

What if your set list was sent in ahead of time, so that the right musicians could dial it in? How about a little more preperation, such as lining up some "rock" type equipment, and someone who understands e-q-ing "that" sound? These are just problems---solve them. Positive attitude makes all the difference. It's your job to win the audience over. Joe Wright did, you can too. Sounds like Mesa, Arizona is already on to this.

[Tim Bridges]

Would it be a possibility to have a "non-traditional" pedal steel show at a good logistical location? It may be that there are more of us out here than we realize. The key is turnout (after all the VOLUNTEER work is done). Putting on a show is an investment (or, rather a risk) for someone, or a group to initially finance. We might see alot of us younger steel players (I'm 50 years old) showing up. It would be nice to have the opportunity to attend.

Just a thought.

[Keith Cordell]

I think that is the point of the idea of having a night or a set or whatever at one of the shows; it is more expensive to do sn entire show built around a non-traditional style than it is to add it to an existing show. I would propose that the show be extended and there be a night before set of different styles so that those interested can check in early and see it. It isn't about segregating the styles, but many have no interest in anything that isn't weepy country, and others of us would attend mostly for the other stuff. Some of the stalwarts in the shows currently would fit well with the rock-esque material, like Russ Hicks- I know he can tear it up. Get Dan Tyack, Lonnie Bennett, Joe Wright, etc. and a ROCK band to back them and just spend an evening with lots of fast licks, hot tubes and loud music! There could even be sort of an open mic period where guys that aren't well known get a shot at it. (Not me... yet)

[Jack Francis]

Dan..both Chuck Back and Bobby Lee told me not to miss your set at the Mesa show but I had to leave for something that was pressing...That'll not happen again I assure you...GREAT JOB!

[James Morehead]

Tim, wouldn't it be great to eventually have that sort of a show, too!! Keith, those are some real workable ideas.

[Donny Hinson]

...a N112 is NOT a rock amp...

I think it would do a credible job with a stomp-box or two, and someone who knows how to set things up. I'm firmly against the mindset that "You can't play rock or blues without such-and-such amp (or guitar)".

IMHO, there's far too much "blaming our equipment" for what we can't do.

[Dan Tyack]

To answer Joe's question about the backup band at Mesa, I would have played a different set if I had used the house band. The house band at Mesa was a great bunch of players, and the set I played wasn't that hard, but it would have been hard to communicate the feels that I wanted for the songs in the minute or so you get before going on. I had arranged previously for Doug Livingston to play piano (he also made charts for me), Stu Shulman to play guitar, a friend of Stu's to play drums, and the house bass player Ben Brogden to play. I know Ben from Nashville and he's a killer blues/soul player in the Memphis tradition, so that worked out great.

In terms of amps, I could play through a solid state steel amp if I had to. I have a collection of overdrive boxes that would make the sound acceptable. But it wouldn't have sounded all that great. For me, tone is about 90% of what it takes for me to play well, and if it sounds 'acceptable' I'll probably play 'acceptably'. I was lucky enough to get to use one of b0b's Mesa Boogie amps, which sounded great, if a little too loud for the room (at 40 watts of tube power). Most of the steel shows have a Peavey backline available, and they have a number of fine sounding blues amps (the classic 30 comes to mind).

I'm going to face this issue at the Spokane steel show in May, where I'm going to be playing with the house band. I'm not sure what I'm going to do. I know the Schubert is definitely off the set list, unless Doug Livingstone can make it.

[Ben Jones]

well Dan, I'll be in spokane, if you need rock or blues geetar or bass lemme know and I will bring my axe. I shred dude. cant help you on piano or drums. edit: oops didnt see the schubert part, better count me out on that (not that you were ever counting me in ...hehe), I dont read

Last year david Wright brought some rockish-licks to his set. It was very cool indeed. A couple people almost did get hurt tho No, everyone loved it from what i could tell.

PS-I didnt see any classic thirties in the backline last year, better bring the thd.

[Tony Prior]

at the risk of being accused of falling off the cliff I posted a clip in a new "BLUES EXPERIMENT" thread this morning. I included a link to a BIAB file which I used for it as well..

happy saturday

tp

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

The guys who run the shows nowdays, especially St. Louis, I would guess don't know squat about rock or blues...

You guess wrong, Scotty really likes it when players like Joe Wright and Sarah Jory play rock. He got up on stage and danced when Buddy Cage did his infamous set, and the first time I played Gloria, he got up in stage and did a break dance.

Bobby Caldwell can play like B.B. King, and Roy Rosetta is an accomplished jazz pianist, who has the sense and taste to play what's appropriate for the individual steel player at these events. (Which means he doesn't get to play a lot of jazz, but on those sets like Herby Wallace's or Doug Jernigan's where he does get to stretch out, he shows how accomplished he truly is.)

It's the crowd that, in the past, has not been receptive to hearing different kinds of music. Thankfully this is changing. This year at Mesa, the performer who got the best reception was Doug Livingston, and he got it for playing a Bach piece. Dan Tyack's blues based set was also warmly received.

There will always be the "if it ain't country it ain't music" contingent at these events, but in general, the audience is growing more open minded and receptive to other styles.

[Tony Palmer]

Worse than the country-only mentality (with a little jazz thrown in,) is the fact that the same players play the exact same songs year after year!!!
Even in the same order!
They need to get some new blood in these shows, whether it be country or rock.

[Tracy Sheehan]

I have always wondered why the public would never accept jazz or what ever on steel.Many steelers like my self that started over 50 years ago could play guitar licks on steel and no one could tell it was a steel,not a lead guitar with out looking.I dont recall how i learned to block.Just did it.This was before Bud Issac came out with slowley.After that the steel was concidered strictly a country instrument.And most of todays so called music is show as most are aware.And if one is going to help a youngster who might be intrested in steel back way off when starting to teach him or her.Dont play every lick you have learned in the past 50 or so years.It is easy to scare a beginner off.They will think,gee i could never learn that.How many would take up fiddle if all they ever heard play violin was Jascha Heifest or Itzac
Pearlman,ect? ?JMHO.Tracy

[b0b]

Last year in St. Louis, Sarah Jory brought her own band from England. Joe Wright also used them (with Sarah on rhythm guitar). They definitely rocked!

The band in Mesa had a few minor problems with my charts, but no problem getting an acceptable groove on my original rock and blues numbers. Lesson learned - I need to write better charts!