Pro and student model costs

[Herb Steiner]

I don't think seats are overpriced at all, when you consider the costs of the materials, the cost of the tools needed to cut the parts and assemble, and then the amount of time necessary to make the item.

But I'm not a cabinet maker. Someone who is and has the tools and skills might have a different opinion. Like you, for instance.

I bought a steel guitar worktable from Frank Carter at the Dallas Jamboree. It's a good idea, well made, and cost $150. When I saw one in Mesa AZ, I thought "cool idea. I could make one myself for... No, wait. By the time I bought the materials, cut the wood, assembled it, etc., I'd have more hassle in it than I needed." Then my guru Bobby Bowman said he wished he had one. Now here's Frank with a simple solution to my problem. Sold, here's the money, problem solved.

Capitalism is great for solving problems. God bless America. And I'm not kidding.

[Ernie Pollock]

Another thing I like about the GFI Economy Model, you don't have to replace it after a year or two, it will just keep on tickin'

Ernie
http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

[Dave Mudgett]

When one considers the value of a dollar, steels were way more expensive 30-35 years ago - I believe typically well over a grand, even for a high-quality S-10. I'm not talking about the starter steels, which were not at the quality of current starter guitars. Add a hefty sum for a relatively powerful, clean amp needed for PSG. That was a lot more money than even the best solid-body guitars were back then. One could easily get top-of-the-line Strats or Teles for $300-400, ane Les Pauls for $400-500. Now a comparable Strat or Tele (not even talking about a vintage one) is more like a grand to two grand. One can easily pick up a good pro-model steel for a grand to two grand. I think prices have largely equalized, and the monetary threshold for starting PSG is really not so different than for someone who is serious about guitar. I'm not talking about a Wal-Mart-style guitar, which is basically a toy, IMO.

I agree that there are some perfectly good commodity, import-made guitars cheap. But I view these as comparable to something like one of the starter pedal steels, which are, btw, made in the US. My view is that corners have been cut on all of them, but good music can be made on all. Nothing like the old days of horrible quality imported or starter guitars that could barely be played.

So, IMO - quality for quality - the price for a serious guitar and PSG have largely equalized, unless one wants to talk about high-end and vintage stuff, where the guitar prices have soared way beyond the level of any pedal steels. The most expensive vintage guitars are pushing a half a million. The most expensive steels are at least a full order of magnitude lower than that.

Of course - as has been pointed out - there are other instruments whose startup costs pale those of a startup steel set. Oboe, tuba, and so on.

The bottom line is that - IMO - money is not a remotely serious barrier for anybody who is really serious about starting on PSG. This is much more so than 30-35 years ago, where the price of a pedal steel was more like the price of a car - maybe not a new one, but $1500-2000 bought a pretty decent car in 1975, which most people took a long-term loan on. Now, most people can put a usable starter steel set on their credit card and pay it off in a few months, if not immediately. It's in the range of an intermediate-level guitar setup. IMO, of course.

[Ben Jones]

I don't think seats are overpriced at all, when you consider the costs of the materials, the cost of the tools needed to cut the parts and assemble, and then the amount of time necessary to make the item.

But I'm not a cabinet maker. Someone who is and has the tools and skills might have a different opinion. Like you, for instance.

your right Herb, how could I possibly tell the value of something unless Ive made it myself? what was I thinking? Lemme go back to carpentry school, apprentice for a couple years and then i'll get back to you once I have the necessary credentials to tell if $200 is too much to pay for a plywood sewing stool.

theres alot of things I dont make or have any knowledge of how they are contructed..somehow I am still able to gauge their relative value just fine tho.

[Charlie McDonald]

Right on, Herb.
My car isn't near as cool as my steel, and it only has too pedals, and uses more gas.
If it were cooler, it'd cost too much.

[David Doggett]

Ben, I got a fancy expensive seat. It is too heavy and doesn't hold all my cords and stuff. It sits at home. For gigs I take a $15 collapsable keyboard bench, and put my pedal and cords in a small handbag that adds no weight of its own and holds much more stuff.

But the old cheap pot pedal with the jerky string and that cut my tone and wore out pots had to go. My state-of-the-art Hilton volume pedal was worth every penny and more. To me the volume pedal is an integral part of the pedal steel phrasing, tone and sustain, and it needs to be of the same quality and durability as the instrument itself.

[Mitch Ellis]

Mandolin...."a glorified ukelele" That's a good one! Everyone has made great pionts. It doesn't happen often, but every now and then, you can hear two opposing views, and both seem to be right. About 3 yrs. ago, I was able to buy a new D10 Zum. I didn't mind handing over the money, because I knew I was making a great investment, and I wanted one DESPERATELY bad. I also new that under normal conditions, I'd never have to buy another steel. It was a lifetime investment. Even so, the money was still very hard to come up with.
I know people who buy wrecked, late-model auto's. They repair and repaint it, and sell it for a lot less than what it would have cost at a dealership. Would this same principle work for steel's? What I mean is...buy a totally junked-out, beat-up, steel for next to nothing, restore it to new, then sell it. Could the seller make money and the buyer save money?
Mitch

[Jim Sliff]

You CAN play professionally with a $200 guitar and a $200 amp.

That is quite the exception, not the rule. It would be an extreme example of someone trying only to prove a point. Most pro and semi-pro guitarists are quite meticulous about the quality and setup of their gear, and the prototypical $200 amp is a cheap sudent practice amp - NOT a gig-worthy piece of equipment. And a $200 Indonesian six-string is great for Johnny down the block, but YOU go gig with one and have it go out of tune the minute the stage lights heat up.

Even the kids I know who play showcases and local shows are using Les Pauls, PRS guitars, American Strats, and Mesas, Bogners , tube Marshalls and Soldanos, among others. You'll not see too many of these young guys gigging with a Squier and some POS 30 watt DSP amp. They save their money, work at guitar stores to get deals, and do whtever they vcan to get quality equipment...and the cost is usually higher than pedal steel, where the guitar may cost about the same as a good-quality PRS or Les Paul, but the steel amps are, to put it plainly, cheap, solid-state, printed circuit production amps. Not in the same league with a Bogner Uberschall or ANY Soldano.

Simply put - semi-pro 6-string players who are even halfway serious have more money invested in their equipment than most steelers.

And I agree - $200 or so for volume pedals and chairs with storage boxes are ridiculous prices.

[David Doggett]

Jim, I mostly agree with you on this. When I said you could play professionally with a $200 guitar and amp, I was allowing for some of the legendary blues guys like Hounddog Taylor, who was famous for his pawn shop slide guitars. There may well be some great old country bar bands out there playing the hell out of cheap guitars. But you sure don't see them on the Opry, the big concert tours, or CMT. Sure, the top pros of 6-string or steel can play the heck out of a cigar-box guitar. But for some reason they mostly seem to play on stuff that costs more than my car.

Those under $100 student guitars and $160 starter drum kits and clarinets look good in the little pictures in the catalog. But somehow I imagine in your hands they will make the Carter Starter seem like a Strattivarius. I pitty the poor student who tries to start on one of those. But you can do okay beginning with a Carter Starter.

[Dave Mudgett]

I agree that $200 guitars are the exception on most stages. However, even now I keep on seeing really good guitars for that price. One was a base model Peavey Generation, US-built in the late 80s/early 90s. Kinda plain-jane flat blue color, but the guitar is great - versatile pro-quality Tele-style. Same day, same store in Lemoyne, PA, a recent Danelectro Mod 7, a 7-string Dano. Great guitar, does stuff nothing else I have will do. I use it all the time.

On pro-quality steels, I bought a BMI S-10 3+4 for $700, including a Goodrich volume pedal, a couple of years ago. Now, the steel had a few issues - that was part of the reason it was reasonable - and it took me a few days to take that guitar apart and put it back together correctly. Probably would have been a couple hundred more if it was set up correctly when I got it. But when I got done, it blew away anything else I had, tonally. Lawrence 705 pickup, solid construction, plays and sounds great. It's also a great guitar to learn basic steel setup on, IMO. Everything was logically laid out, no special tools were required - I used Bobbe Seymour's all-pull video, I was totally green on pedal steel setup.

One should not get the idea that it takes a ton of money to get a pro-quality guitar. I was in the vintage guitar biz for a while, and have had a bunch over the years - fun, but not always necessary from a playability and tonal point of view, IMO. But sometimes you gotta zig when they're zagging.

[Bill Hatcher]

The $200 playable gig guitar is a reality. I know, I use them. I have the worst penchant for cheap guitars. I will buy them just to see the looks on the faces of the rest of the guys I play with when I tell them what they cost.

I bought a Fender alder body two tone strat thing brand new at Guitar center for $129. I took it straight to a recording session and no body knew the difference from an expensive one.

$99 nylon Yamaha model 101 guitar was my main recording nylon till I replaced it with a no name $250 model that sounds incredible.

$235 Ibanez Artcore 75 model. UGLY Gretsch orange. About the size of a Gibson 175, 2 pickups. I just did a vanity CD for a local girl singer and cut the solo guitar tracks here at home for her to sing to here at a studio. Everybody loved the sound. I have used this guitar on all sorts of gigs.

If you want to go up to say the $400 range, you can buy some absolutely nice playing guitars.

There is a site on the net for Rondo Music. They carry a full line of cheap guitars. The $199 SX6 guitar (looks like a fancy 335) I got from them could be played on any gig. A bit noisy, but no more than single coil Strats or Teles.

I wish these had been around in the late 50s and early 60s when I needed a good cheap guitar to learn on. They are much better than the $29 Sears electrics I had. They probably would have cost like $13!

[Tony Prior]

those cheap guitars were around in the 50's and 60's !

I payed around $135 for my brand new 64 tele..!

the problem with cheap Steels is there is no such thing as a cheap CHANGER or cross shaft bellcrank mechanism. They are either made well..or...they are not...

Cheap Electric Guitars are made out of every possible piece of wood imaginable, and they still play ok and kinda stay in tune, but there is no such thing as cheap MAPLE...or cheap wood which maintains sustain and rigidness...Soft wood, 10 strings and multiple pulls above pitch is not a good match for soft wood..

Cheap electric guitars have lousy pickups...tinny, thin sounding, low gain humbuckers etc...they just look like the real things.

But you can still gig with them regardless...

Don't try putting a cheap tinny sounding pickup on a 10 string Steel and expect much...or cheap tuning keys...

A $199 Electric Guitar may very well play good and be capable of bringing along to a gig, but at the end of the day it's still a $199 Guitar and is not intended to stand side by side with it's senior brother or sister, the $1000 guitar...or more...
t

PS, I have two such guitars, an Epiphone Les Paul Standard, plays and sounds great in my mind and an Epiphone Wildkat which I doubt I will ever part with.

The Les Paul seems like it weighs about 5 pounds less then the Gibsons I have owned. Maybe its' made out of cardboard, who knows..

[Bill Hatcher]

Yes they are disposable. I gave one to kid in the neighborhood when I finished using it.

The materials are where it is at. The Fender was made of alder and had a beautiful tight grained maple neck. If the neck had not been 1 5/8ths wide at the nut, I would have kept it. The wood was as good as any other Fender costing 5 times more.

The other cheapos I have been buying have maple ply bodies and such, but the neck material is some kind of wierd "mahagony" that looks like the worst packing crate wood you ever saw. These are a big question mark.

Your right about most of these never meant to compare with the real deals, but some are very surprising and are a genuine value especially the Ibanez Artcore instruments!

Back on the steel guitar topic, as soon as a manuf. sets up production in the Pacific Rim you will see some low priced steels. Not until.

Do you really think there is enough demand for pedal guitars for a company to consider even doing this??

[David Doggett]

Here's the real bottom line: you can literally buy a used student or pro pedal steel rig, try it for a year, and sell it for what it cost.

I think there was a thread awhile back about Carter considering having a Carter Starter clone made in Mexico.

Until then, what do Jim P. and the other "prohibitive cost" complainers expect the pedal steel community to do? Guitars are just inately smaller, simpler, cheaper instruments to make than pedal steels (and most other instruments). There will never be an $89, or even a $200 pedal steel. And the medium powered clean playing amp you need is inherently more expensive than the low powered dirty amp you can start on with guitar. And you don't need a volume pedal for guitar. Then throw in the major cost-cutting fact that there is a huge mass market for guitars that will never exist for pedal steels. So guitar will always be considerably cheaper to start on than pedal steel. Likewise, the minimum pro guitar rig will always be cheaper than the minimum pro pedal steel rig.

So what? They are different instruments. Full size keyboards and pianos also cost more than guitars. So what?

And as I said at the beginning, comparing a beginning guitarist to a beginning pedal steeler is not usually an appropriate analogy. The vast majority of beginner steelers were already beginner guitarists years before. They are not really beginners. They are intermediate or advanced guitar players moving up from a simpler cheaper instrument to a more elaborate and more expensive instrument not really intended for musical novices. It's more like moving up from piano to organ. There is absolutely no reason to ever expect the larger, more elaborate and complicated instrument to cost the same. It is a complaint that makes no sense.

Does the unavoidable extra cost prevent a lot of limited means guitar players from dabbling in pedal steel? Undoubtedly. For the same reason they are not going to dabble with tenor sax or sitar. Does the extra cost prevent someone with a serious interest in pedal steel, who is willing to save up or buy on credit, from taking up pedal steel? In the US or Europe, probably not.

And the fact is that, in inflation adjusted dollars, both student and pro models cost half as much today, as when I started in the '70s. And the original cost of a new student or pro model pedal steel can be substantially recouped when they are sold used (nobody really throws these things in the garbage). And used pro and student models can almost always be sold for the original used cost or more. So you can literally buy a used student or pro pedal steel rig, try it for a year, and sell it for what it cost. I think this fact makes the whole cost issue moot. I say we count our blessings.

[Jim Sliff]

Bill, did that Fender for $129 have a Fender or Squier decal?

For $129 if it was an alder body it was discontinued. The cheapest Fenders with alder bodies at G/MF are the Standard series, which are in the $300 range. All the low-price "budget" models are laminated, agathis, basswood or poplar in order of increasing price.

But even the $79 Squier plywood thin-body models have maple necks.

There have been absolutely huge improvements in hardware and pickups in budget models over the last 5 years. As Bill notes, the Ibanez Artcore guitars are great sounding and fully-useful jazz boxes; the new Gretsch Synchromatics look/sound like the classic 6120's and such, but for street prices in the $600 range. These are all hollow-body guitars, and a steel is no harder to construct asa stable platform than a hollow body 6-string.

Same with tunes. pickups, etc - the budget lines are vastly improved over previous decades, and anyone saying that import tuners or pickups won't be up to snuff is living 10 years ago - when that was certainly true.

As far as changers go - give the psecs to one of the manufacturing giants in the orient and you'll get a changer of decent quality for a fraction of the cost. The automated manufacturing processes (which can be based simply off a scan of blueprints), low labor costs and spread-out overhead makes it a relatively simple task.

There will still be those who will always say "you can't make a good steel guitar that way", just as there were those that said "made in Japan" meant junk. But the fact is quality parts for 6-strings are already being made there, and it would take little effort to add steel manufacturing to the mix. No, you're not going to get a $3,000 guitar for $500...but it would not be a stretch to make a decent-playing 3+4 S10 for $500 street pricing.

To touch on the amp subject - some beginners opt for $50 SS 5-watt amps for guitar. For a beginning steel player (not a gigging steel player) any of the $100-200 bass practice amps would be ideal...I know because I've tested a bunch of them with steel. They are made for headroom, have higher frequency range than bass amps of 10 years ago due to all the string-poppers/slappers, and the speakers are full-range.

Volume pedal? Buy a Morley optical for $75.00...or less. You don't HAVE to have a Hilton or Goodrich - we're talking budget-level beginner items.

Is there enough interest? Right now, I think there is. Any maker who could get RR on the "team" and market from that angle would do pretty darned well....IF learning materials were part of the package. But if the same old stuff is all that's available, capitalizing on RR's popularity is a waste - an RR fan interested in steel isn't going to buy a book full of country songs and lessons; that's just reality.

[Jim Peters]

David, not complaining, just stating the facts. I agree with Bill Hatcher, there are are many great choices in inexpensive 6 strings(under $3oo). I just bought a new accoustic, $825 delivered. It is a Larrivee accoustic/electric. You can not buy a better playing or sounding guitar anywhere for any money. This is pro level quality by anyone's standards, for the price of beginner steel. The point is this: a BEGINNER can not get into steel for less than used Carter and whatever amp you got, let's say $600. Guitar beginner gets a really decent better than beginner axe for $250 used(or $400 new), and he's good to go! It's a lot steeper hill, monetarily and technique-wise to get started on steel. JP

[James Morehead]

I apologise ahead of time, here, if I am out in left field here, but here's a different twist.

What I'd like to know, who really is concerned about the difference in price of student vs. pro models? I doubt that most players do, but I believe the builders and those who market the steels are the only ones who even care about the concept of this topic.

An entry level person considering taking up pedal steel isn't going to pass on learning steel because he can buy a 6 string cheaper, because if that's the case, he will pass on the guitar for harmonica because it's cheaper. So throw that thinking out. He would by a Carter Starter whether or not it was $700 or $800---because he WANTS to learn, and he figures that it is the cost of getting started. If there is no student models, he will get the cheapest pro guitar he can find, it it represents the basics and is playable. If a person wants to play a steel, he will do what it takes to get one.

Pedal steels are reasonably priced---everyone of them out there now, and those still on the builders tabels, because they are all sold and owned or very soon to be delivered. True, Carter and a few others carry a stock of some models.

If you don't think pedal steels and steel equipment are reasonable, then anyone reading this thread can speak right up and admit that they are willing to over-pay for their guitars and equipment. I doubt there is anybody reading this who did NOT feel they got a good enough deal on their rig to go ahead and purchase. Infact, I would venture a guess, that the prices are so reasonable, that most readers of this topic have two or three or more steel guitars in their private collection---let alone amps. I own 4 pedal steels myself, even though I can only play one at a time(if you want to call it playing! HA!)

The point is, We get what we want, according to our individual abilities and financial limitations, justified by what we believe we need---it's all sitting in our music rooms or a studio somewhere, or on stage at the moment. You own it because you wanted it. You found a way to purchase your rig. So, really We as players or potential players will buy it one way or another if we want it bad enough. It goes for harmonica players to classical violinist. Entry level people are no different--they eventually quit, or turn into good customers just like you and I did, and still are.

[Bill Hatcher]

Jim Sliff. I think it was the Squire Affinity series. The alder body was an upgrade from the mysterious wood bodies that they came in. It really was a decent guitar. Beautiful two tone sunburst.
Neck was just too narrow at the nut. The grain pattern in the neck was better than any $3000 Fender Custom Shop strat in the store. Sometimes you just find a nice one. A buddy of mine wanted an elec guitar for his daughter to learn on. I sold it to him.

The absolute best value in a gig guitar I have come across recently is the Ibanez AF103NT. I bought a used one for $400 with a case that smokes my Gibson Custom shop 355 which had a retail price of almost $4000. I just finished using it on a show and was really happy with it.

One day there will be a cheap imported pedal guitar. I would think that one of the name companies will probably have it made overseas.

[Dave Mudgett]

James - The context is the first two lines of David's original post:

There have been recent threads (and many in the past) lamenting the cost of getting started on pedal steel. Somehow the manufacturers are often blamed. Almost always, the comparisons are to regular guitar.

I agree that the perception that pedal steels are extremely expensive is one of several reasons people don't start - we've already heard others echo this sentiment on this thread. I think the reason David started the thread is to start to try to dispel this perception.

An entry level person considering taking up pedal steel isn't going to pass on learning steel because he can buy a 6 string cheaper, because if that's the case, he will pass on the guitar for harmonica because it's cheaper. So throw that thinking out.

IMO, that has emphatically not always been the case, and I think there's some carryover from that reputation. I was a case in point for a long time. I wanted to take up PSG in the early-mid 70s. But the asking price of over $1000 for a pro-model or even at least $400 for a difficult-to-play starter model was just out of the question. Add a vol. pedal and a loud, clean amp, it was over the top for me - probably $600 or more in 1972 dollars even for a starter. I did look quite a bit.

Now consider the value of a dollar, as compared to 1972, 35 years ago. The factor is 609.6/123.8 or 4.92 - call it about 5. That $600 is about $3000 in 2007 dollars. I was a college student on financial aid, my parents didn't have it, and I didn't have a sugar mama to buy it for me. Loans were out of the question unless I dropped out of school and went to work full time - it was everything I could do to just pay the school bills and I worked co-op jobs every other quarter.

So I just stuck to the used Fender guitar I paid $75 to an MIT grad student for in 1969, and learned to simulate steel licks somewhat by bending the strings with my fingers. By the time I had any money, it was several years later and the itch had passed, at least for the time being. One also needs to remember that loan money was not as freely available to young adults back then the way it is now. Sure - if someone is absolutely committed to being a PSG player to the exclusion of all else, one could almost always find a way. But for most people, high prices are a limitation, to some extent. It sure didn't fit into my framework at the time.

I do agree that things are different now. One can get a workable used starter rig now for about $800. $500 for a used Carter Starter (there's one on For Sale right now), $250-300 for a loud, clean amp, and $50-100 for a used Ernie Ball or Goodrich volume pedal. One could get a little less amp and a little more guitar - whatever, about $800 should do it. By the same reasoning, the 1972 value of this rig is 800/5 or roughly $160 - steel, amp, volume pedal. I could have done this by selling my guitar and little Fender amp. I might have even been able to keep my guitar and come up with the $500/5 = $100 for the steel, and worry about a bigger amp and volume pedal later.

Regardless of the change, old perceptions die hard. I didn't realize until about 8 years ago that pedal steels really haven't gone up all that much, while first-quality guitars have skyrocketed - I got my first Emmons 3+1 student model in 1998 from Don Martz in Johnstown for $350. That is about 350/4 or about $90 in 1972 dollars.

Guitar players pepper me with questions about this all the time. They're honestly surprised that one can get a workable starter steel for anything like $500. It's not always the reality of prices, but the perception. But I totally agree that, with money freely available like it is today, I'll bet that practically any of my guitar-playing Penn State students could manage a steel if they were motivated - we talk guitars all the time. But I doubt most of them know this. I think they tend to see it as a very exotic and expensive instrument.

BTW - the raw consumer price index data from the US Dept of Labor is here - http://146.142.4.24/cgi-bin/surveymost?cu

[David Doggett]

Dave is exactly right. When I started in the mid '70s, I struggled to pay for a used Maverick. It was $300, which is almost $1500 today. There was nothing like the Forum or EBay, so used pro models were almost impossible to find. A new pro model was in the $1000-$2000 range, or $4000-$8000 in today's money). I had a piece of junk light-beam volume pedal with a very wrong taper, because I could not afford the used Sho-Bud pot pedal I found in a pawn shop for $60 (over $240 in today's money). Pedal steel guitar was a very exclusive club for well-paid professionals. It was very difficult for an amateur or semi-pro to find and pay for the equipment. Those days are long gone.

Sure it still costs more to start on steel than on guitar, by far the cheapest instrument to start on. But so what? It also costs more to start on Cello or piano or sax. They are just different instruments. All instruments can't cost the same. Duh. Pedal steel is one of the more expensive instruments to start on, but it is not nearly as hard to afford as it use to be. And most novice musicians start on guitar. Then later maybe they try a Dobro or a lap steel. When they finally decide to try pedal steel, they are trading up to a more elaborate and more expensive guitar. It's what they decide to do instead of buying another two or three thousand dollar high quality acoustic or electric guitar or expensive tube amp (they sure sell a lot of both of those these days to intermediate level amateurs). By comparison, starting on used starter pedal steel equipment for under $1000 is doable today, in a way it never was before. And a bunch of old pro models are available for the same price in today's dollars that they cost new in '70s dollars - 1/4 to 1/5 their original value. I don't know of any other instrument for which that is true.

I still say we should count our blessings.

[Jim Sliff]

I still say we should count our blessings.

Man, that is sure true. I'm playing and working on vintage Fender guitars that if they were like OTHER Fender guitars of the same year would be worth $10k and up. If "vintage fever" ever hits the steel world more extensively (the Bigsby steels being the "vintage" exception due to rarity) things will change drastically - then I think you'd definitely see the push to imported beginner steels and such, since the used market would become the "vintage" market - with a pice tag to match!

[James Morehead]

Thanx Dave M, you have a very interesting perspective, and which I do agree with. I was just entering the work force back in early seventies myself. And you are right, things sure have changed!! WOW!! But, the only thing that NEVER changes, is the fact that EVERYTHING changes. I really do not think much will hold a person back from aquiring a pedal steel if he/she really want one, and I agree with ya'll, that today it is even easier that before to do just that. The Steel Guitar World is constantly evolving. Look at all the new brands of steel guitars on the market today. Look at the new Steel Clubs popping up these days---10 years ago---how many were there? Look at the help available now--most folks are very willing to help out a newbie. Look at all the hords of learning material out there---a few short years ago it was pretty scarce. It was not very long ago that you could not log in on this forum and discuss anything about a steel guitar.

The ease and way you aquired a steel guitar back in the seventies is truly different than the ease and way you go about it today---whether you think it be easier or be harder. The market for steel guitars is actually "developing" more and more each year. The very year someone thought of a pedal steel, what was that pedal steel worth to the world?? I guess nothing, beyond a couple of the nonpedal players, who had the seed of curiosity. Which means there was NO market---until that curiosity took off, and the market was cultivated to create demand, through awareness. So, in the beginning, it had nothing to do with about how cheap you could get one, if one existed.

So, today, the fact that NEVER changes is--if you WANT a rig, you will STILL do what ever it takes to aquire that rig. I agree, we need to count our blessings, it sure is easier today!!

To me, I am one who sees the "now" market developing. I doubt that comparing steel guitars and 6 string guitars is anywhere near accurate--apples and oranges. Your better to compare realestate values then and now--and that, too, is irrelevant. And it is something I don't really worry about much---the market will seek it's own level according to supply and demand. That is for marketeers to worry about and develope, and builders close behind them, trying to meet the demand. As a player, I found the way which worked for me, and I have aquired my equipment--and it had nothing to do with the cost of living back "in the day". It had everything to do with my "want-to" and being in "now".

[Calvin Walley]

the name of your mystery wood is most likly "Banak"
it a cheap wood fairly light and untill the past couple of years was used to make picture frames

( i used to manage a inport lumber company )

[William Fraser]

Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in, How many times do you see a young guitar slinger go out & buy or trade up to a thousand dollar strat or hot amp? Cost is a much smaller issue than COMMITMENT ! Most beginners ,even those who play guitar will not sit down & tackle the books & get a good grasp on theory .It is much easier to learn a couple of patterns & wail away on guitar Than to learn about arrangements & song structure. Fat fact # 2 , the guitar & piano are complete instruments ,you dont need a band behind you, to see how things sound /work, is there a steel player out there that hasnt made a tape or some sort of track to practice to? THere are tons of good used steels out there cheap ! check the forum. Kids today don't want to sit off to the side & enhance the sound [I'm not a poker faced steeler are you] they want to lead ,just don't ask them to play a 4 note chord or any thing. OK enough, by the way I ditched my student model 2 months in ,allthe books stress the point of having 10 strings 3 pedals & at least 2 levers. Billy Lee

[SmallCap]

I don't understand the whole discussion - of course a PSG is a lot more expensive than standard 6-strings. No way to compare a mass-product with a handcrafted genuine instrument.

I play a Jagiella (german manufacturer) S-10 with a handrest and option for a 2nd fret. I paid about $3000 for this baby. But I know what I have and I like it.

Most of you all will produce much better music on a $400 Student model than I do on my instrument.
Just look on Willie Nelsons guitar. No one would ever thing of paying more than $5 for this wreck if he'd see it on ebay - but listen to what Willie did with it and still does.

Regards from Germany
Roland