Carter/GFI student guitar "shootout"

[Dennis Schell]

Has there ever been an unbiased comparison done somewhere of the Carter Starter and GFI student model guitars? Pros and cons of each? Any alternative choices for newbies that have an interest in learning to play steel but have a budget of say....$1,000 to $1,200?

I'm also curious as to how many 6 string guitar pickers might be interested in PSG but NOT to the point of spending $2,500 PLUS for an instrument that may not capture their interest long enough to become proficient. Has there been a poll in the past?

I notice that there are always a lot of "visitors" to the forum, always many more than members, and that would seem to indicate that there's a large field of interested "potential" pickers out there. Do you suppose that the price of a pedal steel keeps them from attempting to learn PSG? (That was certainly my case back in the 60's)

Dennis

[William Peters]

The 'visitors' are probably not real people, but are webbots that 'read' the forum to index the material in google, or on of the other search engines. b0b could probably tell exactly which engine they come from.

[Steve Riddle]

Dennis, until a couple of months ago I fit into all 3 catagories you mentioned. I've played 6-strings for almost 30 years and during that time I always had an interest in psg. The initial cost of getting started (psg, amp, volume pedal, etc.) was more than I could afford, especially not knowing how long I'd "stick with it".

I finally took the plunge and bought a GFI Student Model from Bobbe, and the only regret is that I didn't do it 20 years ago. I plan on keeping the GFI for a year, then upgrading to a "pro model" of some sort.

And, I was a "visitor" to the forum, quietly checking out what was going on in the world of psg. After I purchased my guitar, I became a member of the forum and still enjoy reading the posts and learning all I can about the musicians and the instrument.

[Ernie Pollock]

GFI Economy could be the only steel you'll ever need if you use the 3&4 setup on E9th. They are built tough, to last, with parts that are solid & well thought out.

Ernie

[Rick Winfield]

I've played a 6 string blues/rock guitar for about 40 years.Been thru many brand names and styles. I've always had an interset in PSG. There's just something about "that sound", not to mention the challenge of the limitless possibilities !!
I've got 2 non-pedal 8 stringers now, one tuned to C6/Fmaj and the other to E9th chromatic(minus the bottom B & D). I know Some of the changes so I try the slants, sometimes only 2 notes, real lucky 3 !!
I personally, DO NOT want a starter. I want a double neck pro, used and abused is okay, as long as it is fully functional. The money others would spend on a starter, I'm saving for a used pro. I've learned from my 6 stringers, everyone wants to buy a Les Paul and a Tele, not an Ibanez. My thoughts are:
"buy big,(and if necessary) sell big" IMHO

[Roman Sonnleitner]

I'm also curious as to how many 6 string guitar pickers might be interested in PSG but NOT to the point of spending $2,500 PLUS for an instrument that may not capture their interest long enough to become proficient. Has there been a poll in the past?

Plenty, I guess, and I'm one of them; I play C6 lap steel, but I'd like to give pedal steel a try - but not at those "entry prices", which I simply can't afford (and there are almost no used PS around where I live); I know a few other guitar players personally that would like to try pedal steel, but have the same problem, most can't afford to simply drop 1000 € on an instrument they aren't even sure about...

[Jim Sliff]

I've messed with both the Starter and the GFI student, and IMHO there's no comparison - the GFI is by far the better instrument. IT "feels" like a pro-quality axe, with the corner-cutting coming in the bells & whistles...the mechanics are solid, as is the basic platform. To me, the Starter isn't bad, but it feels flimsy. I do think the Starter is a nice beginner guitar - but the GFI student model is so close in quality to a "pro" guitar that the "student" name is probably a bad choice - it's simply an ecomnomical guitar that could be played on a pro level without any problem.

I understand GFI is releasing their "no frills" model as well, which could be an option - essentially a professional guitar without any fancy looks that will sell for around $1500. To me, any beginner who was sure he was going to stick with pedal steel would want to seriously consider going that direction - a little more money than a "beginner" guitar, but one you can be satisfied with forever.

[Stan Paxton]

I was a 6-string player since a kid, and many years ago wanted to learn psg, but couldn't afford it. Then years & years later, I got an old beat-up round front Sho Bud with 2 floor & 2 knees for $250 + vol pedal & bar/pix. Was not a student model, was heavy, solid built and mechanics were OK. When it came time to quit or move up, was able to finance a new "pro-model" and traded the old Sho Bud. ...That old used Sho Bud went thru at least 3 beginners from that little music store. ...I can't speak from any knowledge of the Starter or GFI, but I would go the same route again if I had it to do over: find anything playable that I could afford til I could do better. ...just my 2 cents (all I can afford) . ...

[Doug Earnest]

I recall that several years ago Jeff Newman did a shootout of the student guitars available at that time, including Carter, GFI, and the Zumsteel.
I can't remember if it was in his newsletter or in the now defunct Steel Guitar magazine(not Tom Bradshaw's).
I'll be home in a few days to see if I can retrieve the article.

[Dennis Schell]

I recall that several years ago Jeff Newman did a shootout of the student guitars available at that time, including Carter, GFI, and the Zumsteel.
I can't remember if it was in his newsletter or in the now defunct Steel Guitar magazine(not Tom Bradshaw's).
I'll be home in a few days to see if I can retrieve the article.

That would be most interesting, thanks Doug!

Jim, the "no frills" GFI sounds interesting. I just have a notion that there'd be a lot more newbie steelers if there was a new quality instrument available at a price that didn't discourage all but the most dedicated. (Maybe that's a "good thing"?) It seems that a good used pedal steel comes along occasionally that is somewhat affordable and doesn't have wear/mechanical issues (or an "oddball" copedent) but I haven't seen many. Maybe it also depends on where you live.....

Dennis

[David Doggett]

According to Bobbe Seymour's most recent newsletter (free from Steel Guitar Nashville), the GFI is not exactly a "no frills" model. It is exactly their regular professional model, but it is offered in only one standard copedent and only 4 colors. This allows them to streamline production and offer it as an "off-the-shelf" item at a reduced cost. The copedant is fully customizable by the user, and even the color can be changed. The "street" cost will supposedly be under $1500.

That's still more than the student models. I think the student models are okay for beginners on a budget. I don't think the Les Paul/Ibanez analogy is right. The recent student models have the standard modern copedant and sound about as good as a pro model to listeners. They are good to go out of the box. And while they will not appreciate in value the way an old pro model might, they are very easy to sell to another beginner at close to the original price. Having a bunch of these out there being passed around among beginners at half price is very good for the instrument, and is the best way to deal with the entrance cost problem. they are not an investment - they are for learning the modern instrument cheap.

The problem with old pro models is that they tend to have nonstandard copedants, are commonly out of adjustment (play poorly), and may be difficult to find parts for. That may be fine for someone who wants a retro instrument and enjoys a mechanical project. And if it is one of the popular brands, it may appreciate in value. But if you want to hit the ground running with a modern pedal steel, a recent student model is the way to go on a budget.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

How many knee levers does the GFI student model have?

[Dennis Schell]

How many knee levers does the GFI student model have?

I think it comes with two as "standard" but for a price ($140 ea?) you can add a couple more....

Dennis

BTW Mike, love the "clips" on your website! Wow!

[Billy Carr]

For someone just starting out on PSG, I'd highly recommend the Carter Starter. 3 pedals and 4 knee levers already set up on the Emmons set up is more than enough to get started on. For some players the CS doesn't work and that's understandable. Everything doesn't work for everybody. GFI products are also fine products. Nothing wrong with any of there guitars. I've played several of them. But I just believe for a beginner with a limited budget, the CS is a good choice. Yes, I do sell the CS but I also give an honest opinion whenever I post things and I do read other comments and respect each players opinion.

[Jim Peters]

There are pro S10's all the time on the forum below and close to 1500. As an example, I paid 1400 for a GFI(keyless), less than a year old, and that same amount for a 2 yr old Carter with 3 and 5.
The Carter starter is the least expensive choice for a beginner, especially used, that gives you 3 and 4, many on this forum for sale.
GFI economy is not made from the same material (dieboard) as their pro model. Is the new econo model dieboard?
I have played guitar for 45 yrs, I currently own around 12 guitars at on any given day, but the Carter is the most expensive guitar I ever owned, then add a $150 seat,$100 vol.pedal, and $500 dedicated steel amp,whew($2300)! I could go out and get a $300 MIM tele,a$500 Deluxe reissue, and play anywhere.($800)
That is the real cost of decent equipment. JP

[Jim Sliff]

As David noted the new GFI is really a pro-level instrument. I used "no frills" since you don't have a lot of color choices and such, but from a sheer playing standpoint it's supposed to be the equivalent of the Ultra.

The student model is listed as a 3&2, but they'll make it any way you want - it's not like the Carter where only one configuration is available.

[Tony Prior]

I don't think it's actually a shoot out.

The GFI is listed @ $945, 3+2. add $100 for the case and $100 each for additional knee levers.

The Starter is @ $795 Musicians Friend and comes with all sorts of stuff to just start playing.

based on a 3 + 4 shootout, one is $795 and the other is $1145 ( no case).

To me that means they are not in the same catagory.


t

[Jim Sliff]

MF's discounted price vs list price isn't really a valid comparison either. Probably need to check some GFI dealers to see what the actual selling price is.

Still, it's pretty obvious they ARE different. Could be "you get what you pay for".

[Willis Vanderberg]

If you check and see what the Carters are selling for, you will find they hold their price quite well.
If you are a pro picker you will find the Starter a little light and the mechanics are not pro quality. But having said that, I think they are far and above an old ShoBud with one or two knees.
I wouldn't hesitate one minute to play a four hour gig with a Starter.Most any older guitar you buy for around a thousand dollars is going to have problems too. I did play the GFI in Dallas and it played very well.

Old Bud

[Calvin Walley]

if you need more the 2 knee levers, then your ready to move up to a pro model, cause there is a whole lotta music in just 2... if you learn to use them. the other 3 are ( mostly )just frills

[Tony Prior]

if you need more the 2 knee levers, then your ready to move up to a pro model, cause there is a whole lotta music in just 2... if you learn to use them. the other 3 are ( mostly )just frills

Calvin, the other three are NOT just frills, what could you be thinking by stating that?

If you play a 6 string guitar and use only 2 fingers instead of 4, are fingers 3 and 4 just frills ? Because that is what you are saying.

If a student/player does NOT know how to use or execute additional changes on a steel that does not make them frills, it just means they have not learned how to use them yet.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

First, Dennis, thanks for the thumbs up on my web site clips.

It took the pioneers of our instrument many years to discover some of the changes that are now standard on all guitars. Today's beginner may not need some of these changes at first but sooner or later (2 weeks after I started playing in my case) he or she will read about them, and want to use them. And if his or her guitar doesn't have them, that student will be handicapped by not having an instrument capable of doing what he or she wants to do.

I think a student absolutely needs 3 knee levers, and the 4th and 5th are things that can be added and learned about later. But the three (E to F raise, E to Eb lower, and 2nd string lower) are absolutely essential.

The GFI (which I've not seen) is probably a much higher quality instrument, but the fact that the Carter Starter has 4 knee levers overrides all other considerations.

The CS is in my opinion, the perfect student guitar. it's cheap, it sounds good, and it's mechanics, limited though they may be, work well. I think Bud and John and Ann have done the steel guitar community a real service by making it available.

[Jim Sliff]

The GFI (which I've not seen) is probably a much higher quality instrument, but the fact that the Carter Starter has 4 knee levers overrides all other considerations.

But, Mike, the point is that the GFI "Economy" (not student, or Starter) model is a no-frills basic platform. You CAN play a lot of music on a 3+2, as has been mentioned by many players. The second string lower isn't even consistent - sometimes one note, sometimes another, sometimes both with a "feel" stop. But the "E" levers ARE standardized.

However, on the GFI if you need 4 you just have them added. You want 6? Have them added. IT doesn't come with just 2 knee levers - that's just how the basic unit is listed. It comes however you order it. So if you order it with 4, the comparison changes immensely.

You can't do that on the Starter - if you buy a Starter and decide, after playing a while, that you need that vert lever, you're SOL. With the GFI, just order one and have it installed...or install it yourself. Want to make a copedent change, even a minor one? Carter says no on the Starter; GFI says sure.

I think players have been making the valid point that the Carter is a basic model that will never move beyond the basics, while the GFI is closer to something like a Pro-1 (although far more stable and tonally rich IMO) in that it's a basic *platform* that can be modified to suit exapanding needs.

The GFI IS more expensive, but still inexpensive for a new steel. The Carter is also inexpensive...and yes, it's done a service to the steel community. I wonder, though, how many Starter players become frustrated with the permanent limitations?

Sidebar - I STILL think someone will get smart in the near future and have a basic design (but expandable and more stable than the Starter) made offshore in the $500...maybe less...range. To get the ball rolling it would take blueprinting a specific design and all the parts, probably sme patents for protection, and then contacting one or two of the huge Korean, Chinese or Indonesian instrument manufacturers. With computer-controlled manufacturing and a well-made set of prints, parts could be popped out almost immediately, and an assembly line formed that's not much different than that for an amp or 6-string guitar.

Even better from a marketing standpoint would be a maker co-opting with a brand-name like Fender, who already has agreements in place. If any maker has the hots for something like this and existing prints, I'd love to help get the contacts together just to help.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

You CAN play a lot of music on a 3+2,

And you can play a lot of music on a six string guitar below the 7th fret, so let's make a really fine guitar, but with only 7 frets. If people want more, they will have to pay extra for them.

There is today a great deal of instructional material that utilizes today’s copedants of 3 pedals and at least 3 knee levers, The CD is a student model, which means that the people playing it are in the process of learning how to play, and are using these materials. If that student sees something in his or her instruction course that their guitar won’t handle because it doesn’t have the appropriate knee lever, that student’s guitar is holding him or her back.

We all know that GFI makes an excellent instrument, but in my opinion, Gene Fields would better serve the beginner student by making his student guitar come with 3 knee levers instead of 2.

[Dennis Schell]

Looks like the $995 Jackson can be added to the mix now too...
The choices for a beginner are looking better all the time!

Dennis