Number of Knee Levers?

David Fields · Post by **David Fields** » 6 Mar 2007 7:08 am

I see where it is pretty standard to have 3 foot pedals for a single neck E9th settup. What is a bit confusing for me is the number of knee levers. I hear some people telling me that you need at least four kneee levers, but some models even have only 1 knee lever. What do the knee levers do that the foot pedals don't?
I am still trying to understand steel pedals altogether. I certainly appreciate everyone here for giving me some great infomation already and putting up with all my questions.

Dave

Jay Jessup · Post by **Jay Jessup** » 6 Mar 2007 7:36 am

First just a point of etiquette--the name of the instrument is Pedal Steel Guitar not steel pedal guitar, that alone will get you past sounding like a newby.
Knee levers just give you more string pitch change options while allowing you to keep one foot on the volume pedal. There are three levers that are on almost every guitar made these days raising both the E's a half tone and lowering them both a half. The third most popular is lowering the 2'nd string a whole tone with a half tone stop and a lot of people have added a half tone lower on the D (9'th) string to this lever. Argueably 70 to 95% of what you hear these days can be played with just these three changes but if you have three why not have four and that fourth lever can be used for a lot of different things check out the tuning section of Bob's main site to get some examples---Good Luck and be careful--if you get far enough to make the plunge this instrument can become an addiction!!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Mar 2007 7:48 am

Levers do the same thing as pedals (they raise or lower strings) only better. Why better? For pedals, you have to think about which one, you have to pick your foot up and precisely guide it (without looking) to the right pedal while missing adjacent ones. And you have to worry about having the right kind of shoes or boots so you can feel the pedals and not get caught between the pedal rods. For knee levers, you don't have to worry about location. You just flop your knee one way or the other. Most E9 players get very comfortable with the A and B pedals, because they keep their foot planted on both and just rock back and forth without worrying much about precise location. But going to any other pedal requires some very difficult to learn precision foot work. All levers (at least up to five) work as easy or easier than the A and B pedals. You just rock your knee one way or the other. Also, levers are good because they are easy to combine with pedals and other levers.

Three levers on the left leg (including one vertical) and two on the volume pedal leg have become the modern standard, simply because that is the full complement that can be easily reached without thinking about location. The left vertical lever is best chosen to be something that is used in combination with the A and B pedals, because when your toes are holding the pedals down, it is easy to raise your knee and hit the vertical. It is harder to hit the vertical if your foot is holding down nothing, and you have to shift your weight and raise your whole foot and leg to hit the vertical. Try it with an imaginary vertical lever and you will instantly see that.

But you may be wondering what is the musical point of having additional levers or pedals. For the middle octave of E9, from string 8 to string 4 there are 5 strings or notes. The 2nd string also fits in that octave, which gives you 6 notes. But there are 8 scale notes, and 13 chromatic notes in that octave. The A and B pedals give you two more notes, so you have the full 8 notes of the scale. But you still lack the 5 chromatic or accidental notes in that octave. You sometimes need those for melody, harmony, and more complicated or "thick" chords. It is as simple as that. To get a full chromatic scale without moving the bar, you need a full complement of knee levers.

Sure, you can play a lot of music with just one or two levers - obviously the old timers did. But you can also play lots of music with a 6-string lap steel with no pedals or levers. If you opt to play pedal steel guitar to get that pedal steel sound, you might as well not skimp but get the whole package. When ordering a new guitar, the extra levers don't cost that much more. To upgrade an older instrument, the small cost and effort is worth it for most players, and will improve the resale value.

John Sluszny · Post by **John Sluszny** » 6 Mar 2007 8:54 am

To play today's country stuff on E9
I'd say that 4 foot pedals and 5 or 6
knee levers should be "standard".
{str.1 a whole step up
str.2 1/2 step up
str.6 a whole step down
str.7 1/2 step up
str.1 1/2 step up
str.5 & 10 1/2 step down (the X lever or
"Newman Change")
the "Franklin Change"}
plus the "usual" others.
Now,you can play a lot of great psg music
with just 2 pedals & 1 knee lever like
some of the greatests!
But if you really want to play the "Country Top 40"
stuff,get them all!

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 6 Mar 2007 8:56 am

Maybe thinking of a PSG as an automobile would help. A basic 6 cyl, std trans, "base model" 10 string E9 pedal steel would have 3 pedals, "AB&C", and 2 levers (left knee) to raise and lower the "E"s. Such a guitar will "get you down the road" reliably but some "options" would be nice. (In the form of additional levers and/or pedals)
Does that make any sense?

Dennis
(who's E9 3+3 has only 1 "option"!)

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 6 Mar 2007 9:23 am

David look at all the modern course's out know they mostly use a "standard" set-up, that being 3pedals 4knee's, I think 5knees is a little more "standard" now though. I would not get a PSG with one knee without having to do some work. Also as stated above the knees are the same as pedals, you could have the knee's turned into pedals but they are there to help ease control. I only like 3 pedals on my e9th I really don't like alot of blind foot movement.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 6 Mar 2007 11:11 am

Hi, David, a very logical question when one is just looking at our weird instrument without having played for a while. The idea of knee levers being just more pedals nails it. (Sort of like giving yourself more feet!)
If you can picture a knee lever that, say,raises one string a half tone, you could get that same "change" by slanting the bar up to that note on that string, while leaving the other part of the bar on another lower note on a different string. In fact, that's how "non-pedal" or lap steel players do and and have done it for years. Some of the "modern" sounds can be found this way on pedal gitars with fewer knee levers.

The big deal is that these slants work well for two note intervals, but are much more difficult or even impossible to do for full three or four note chords. Pedals, and levers (more pedals), allow playing multiple note chords while changing notes within those chords by raising and/or lowering, allowing some chords just not obtainable otherwise, some by combining several pedals and levers. Playing faster passages, for example banjo-type rolls, at a static chord position, becomes much easier also with pedals or levers to alter the pitches to those needed.

Some folks find they "need" more available pitches to play the music they want, and hence setups with 7 or even more knee levers. Most of the current modern Nashville style uses three knee levers a lot, and another 2 quite frequently. Some players use some of the changes much more than other players.

Bottom line, you can make a ton of music with three pedals and one lever. They did it in the "old days", and with slants and some fast fingerwork, an experienced player can play all night on a simple setup.

If you want or need to sound like or copy the modern Nashville styles, you will need 4 or 5 levers in addition to 3 or 4 pedals.

If you want a basic "pedal steel" sound with lots of possibilities, but just not all the options, you can easily get by with 3 pedals and one knee.

If you want to explore more changes, to experiment to see what changes suit your own playing best, or to have more chords and options available, you'll want a guitar with several knee levers and easy adjustment to the changes.

That's why many players, like me, started on something like a ShoBud Maverick with 3 and one 1, and soon lusted after "more levers".
Geeky as it sounds, it's a thrilling pursuit.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 6 Mar 2007 11:27 am

David,My old MSAclassic D-10 has five knees,but I seldom use all of them,The two I would not want to do without is the two that raises and lowers my E's,With these two and the A and B pedals I can play Maj chords,minors,9th's 6th's,7th's,Dim.aug,Maj7th's No better than I play this keeps me busy.Bobbe,Reese,or Billy Robinson can play all this and MUCH more with NO pedals.

Brandon Ordoyne · Post by **Brandon Ordoyne** » 6 Mar 2007 11:50 am

I have 3 floor pedals (A,B,C) and 5 knee levers (LKL "F",LKV "V",LKR "D",RKL "X",RKR "E") on my SD-10 Pedalmaster Keyless E9th....This is my first with the vertical lever(LKV or "V"). It raises my 1st & 7th strings (F#) a whole note to G# and my 2nd string (D#) a half note to E. This is my first guitar with it, and I enjoy it!

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 6 Mar 2007 1:26 pm

David,

I am in agreement with Charles Davidson from AZ. He has it about right. I thing the two knees that lower and raise the E's that's string 4 and 8 on standard Nashville setup the most used in conjunction with the A and B floor pedals. Next I would suggest knee righ right that lowers 2nd string and can raise your B to a D note on the heavy end.

I would recommend no less than 3 or 4 knees. THe other knee pedal I would recommend lowering strings and 5 and 10 from B notes to Bb notes.

These for the most part are pretty much the standard pedal changes on today's pedal steel guitars.

Hope this helps!

GOD bless!

Teery Wood

Stu Schulman · Post by **Stu Schulman** » 6 Mar 2007 1:53 pm

I think that it depends on how fat your knees are.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 6 Mar 2007 2:38 pm

David Fields wrote:I see where it is pretty standard to have 3 foot pedals for a single neck E9th settup. What is a bit confusing for me is the number of knee levers. I hear some people telling me that you need at least four kneee levers, but some models even have only 1 knee lever. What do the knee levers do that the foot pedals don't?
Dave

Pedals and knee levers are to a pedal steel what left hand fingers are to a guitar player. They allow you to get the notes from other frets.

I feel that 3 knee levers are the minimum requirement for the E9th: E's to Eb, E's to F, and D# to D. Others may disagree but, to me, playing without those levers is like playing guitar without all my fingers.

The 4th knee lever is an option and a matter of personal preference. There is no real standard for what the 4th lever should do. The 5th (vertical) lever is a luxury.

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 6 Mar 2007 3:17 pm

b0b wrote:
I feel that 3 knee levers are the minimum requirement for the E9th: E's to Eb, E's to F, and D# to D. Others may disagree but, to me, playing without those levers is like playing guitar without all my fingers.

My setup exactly b0b. When brother Ray built my "Morrison" he said that I NEEDED these changes to get a good start on learning pedal steel....

(And they are still more than enough to keep me in a state of confusion!)

Dennis

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 6 Mar 2007 3:27 pm

My "option" for my 4th KL is to raise #1 a half step while lowering #6 a whole step, and the "luxury" of my 5th LKV is to lower #5 and #10 a half step.

Larry

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 6 Mar 2007 4:19 pm

I have '3 & 6' on my E9, but I can discount the 6th (LKL2) - it raises strings 1, 2 and 7 a 'whole, half and a whole' respectively, but it's permanently folded up into the guitar 'cause I never use it.

I have:

LKL - Es to D#, LKR - Es to Fs, RKL - Bs to A#, RKR - 2 to D/C# and 9 to C#. These four are vital for getting my full 'vocabulary'.

My LKV is interesting - raising the 6th to A# (works well with either my 'Day' B&C pedals, or with the C pedal and my LKL for pedal 7 C6th moves).

But - I'm about to change the LKV to raise my 10th from B to C# - then I'll 'roll off' that pull on my C pedal so I can get a 'B' bass note under an 'A' chord with pedals down. If I need the C# in the bass, raising it on the LKV will be easy and convenient.

I'm leaning more and more towards getting a 12-string extended E9 guitar, but I'm really nervous about making the switch while still trying to earn a living...

RR

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 6 Mar 2007 4:52 pm

I feel that 3 knee levers are the minimum requirement for the E9th: E's to Eb, E's to F, and D# to D. Others may disagree but, to me, playing without those levers is like playing guitar without all my fingers.

Ditto, I'd be handicapped...

RKR is just a pedal to screw up the volume pedal anyway

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Mar 2007 5:29 pm

I agree with the above three minimum standards. My fourth lever raises the F#s on 1 and 7 to G with a feel stop (gives a 7th with the A and B pedals down), then to G# (major 7th). That also gives a b5 with the A pedal minor chord, and a unison 5th. I play a universal, so my 5th lever has to lower E to D. On standard E9 I would want to lower 5 a halfstep to give a minor with the A and B pedals down. The 4th and 5th pedals seem to vary from player to player according to their taste and the type of music they play. They are the ones to experiment with. To me that's what makes them so desirable. The first three are sort of locked in as essentials, and can't be messed with.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Mar 2007 8:18 pm

To the original poster - you're probably getting sensory ovverload at this point. Asking what knee levers are used for and then getting inundated with theory can be pretty intimidating, and has probably scared off more than one newbie.

But I think the point everyone was trying to make was that knee levers allow you to change string pitches just like pedals do, but easier; and in combination with pedals, give you all sorts of musical options.

Anyone claiming 5 or 6 levers is "standard" is off base IMO - there IS no standard. The closest thing to it is the 3 pedal, 4 knee lever setup that Carter puts on their Starter guitar, and many others also use. Most instructional materials for E9 tuning (assuming you're planning on playing traditional steel) use that (or at least the first 3 levers b0b mentioned) as a basis, with more advanced materials specifically dealing with other levers.

If you try looking for "standard" changes (i.e. "copedents"), you'll find one primary version of 3pedals/4 knee levers...plus a few variations. Anything beyond that is non-standard...the changes vary, the naming conventions aren't consistent, and as a beginner it can drive you nuts.

If you're just starting out, and playing traditional steel, a single-neck, 10 string, E9 tuning with 3 pedals and 4 knee levers will serve you quite well, and almost everybody playing E9 will be able to relate to your setup and offer advice.

Then there are those of us who don't play traditional steel, use either vintage instruments or new ones in strange tunings - but do it because it suits what we play. It's a long, difficult road, though...there's no lesson materials, no teachers, and few examples to work with.

It DOES fire up the creative juices, though.

Good luck -

Jim

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 7 Mar 2007 5:50 am

To the original poster, I agree with what several others have said. You should get a 10-string guitar with 3 floor pedals and 3 knee levers. The 3 knee levers should raise strings 4,8 a semi-tone, lower strings 4,8 a semi-tone, and lower string 2 a semi-tone. Everything else (more floor pedals, more knee levers, more strings, half-stops, etc.) is gravy, nice to have, but not at all necessary.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 7 Mar 2007 6:04 am

b0b, I'm thinking that 4th lever should be the Bb lower. Try as I can to do without it, it has many uses.

But David, if budget is a concern, here's one with one knee lever I'd snap up if I didn't already have an MSA.
click here
And if you don't like it, you can sell it to me.

My first was an MSA Red Baron, and I was very disappointed. With only a D-lower lever, I couldn't get much music, but I didn't know diddly. Tone was an issue; but this MSA is a maple body, lacquered, with an original-looking pickup, and won't disappoint in the tone department. Bought cheaply enough, you should be able to recoup your investment.
The same can be said of a Carter Starter.

Can someone help me with these long links?
Signed,
Embarassed

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 7 Mar 2007 6:21 am

Charlie, but wouldn't that just cripple him as far as teaching materials go? The two major books - Winnie's and Scotty's - both require more than one knee lever, and any beginner is bound to get frustrated if they can't get past the first 20 or so pages. It's pretty, but it seems like a Starter would be more practical as far as fitting conventional teaching.

To me, a 3/1 is less useful than an 8-string Fender...at least there's a support system and a seperate board for the Fenders with lots of help and workaround methods. With a 3/1, you're just flat stuck.

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 7 Mar 2007 6:29 am

That ebay MSA is a beauty! Wish I wasn't so "Buck$ Owin" at the moment! (:roll:) I'd be on that baby quicker than a duck on a junebug!

An additional pair of levers could be added to that guitar....

Dennis

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 7 Mar 2007 6:37 am

Jeff Newman sometimes referred to Knee Levers as

KNEE PEDALS

that takes all the mystery out of the definition.

The are all exactly the same..

just different...

A Guitar player plays a simple triad D chord on the 2nd fret, he moves a finger to the first fret to make it a simple D7..

thats what levers do...like Bob stated, it allows you to move your fingers without actually moving them , the Levers are your fingers..

Dennis Schell · Post by **Dennis Schell** » 7 Mar 2007 8:29 am

I just discovered in the "for sale" section of the forum that this isn't an MSA guitar. See thread "MSA Mini Pro 3+1"....

Dennis

(It's still kinda purty though....)

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 7 Mar 2007 11:54 am

Jeff Newman sometimes referred to Knee Levers as

KNEE PEDALS

that takes all the mystery out of the definition.

Just as a trivial point, since "pedal" means "of or pertaining to the foot", "knee pedals" doesn't actually make sense. It would make more sense to call the pedals "foot levers" or "pedal levers".

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