Is "IT" in the hands....or inherent tone!

[Ron Kirby]

Reece is correct for sure about color,, When we are looking at our fret boards, playing steel hours at a time ,we are READING the frets. Its a known fact our eyes are trained to read only in black in white, same as the print here on this screen, same as all text books in school, same all newspapers, same as all speed limit signs . Black letters and white back ground, the negative would be white letters black back ground(which is not in any book). some say ,they think white fret boards are easyer to see,thats correct! They are!

Reeces Info, PRICELESS.

[Jim Sliff]

Jim S....How can you possibly consider me to be (in your words)a "decision maker"

read your own words:

If no comparison tests are posted, as for me personally, and many others as well, the conclusion would then be…..it is not possible to consistently identify any specific brand name guitar, therefore “the inherent tone myth will at last be busted”.

You require the tests to debunk your "theory". You state thast the abscence of tests would essentially prove you correct. That would certanly make you a "decision maker" - as faulty as your logic is.

Uhhhh....Jim, you still have not responded to my question

Perhaps you would be so kind as to point out said "question". I can't find a question directed to me in your posts.

Your response to Kevin's post was ludicrous. You still do not seem to understand your own self-contradictory statements...nor the marketing of your OWN guitars, which if you're going to sellon a truthful basis (using your own criteria), should be "Play a Millenium - it sounds like any other guitar".

[Reece Anderson]

Brint H....There is no logical connection to what you said in reference to my comments.

In answer to your question: my point is....you have no point.

Whats so dramatic and sinister about me suggesting that those so inclined make steel guitar comparisons and do so at their own discretion. This is after all a steel guitar forum.

Perhaps you will explain what is it that bothers you about the comparisons which I have suggested and went into detail to explain. I already know why you refuse to explain yourself, but perhaps others would like to hear it from you.

Such comparisons I mentioned harms noone, and certainly does not demean anyone whether or not they can distinguish a particular guitar or not. I failed and I'm the first to admit it.

I agree with your earlier statement of moving forward and seeking the truth. One has to now wonder why you're not remaining true to your words.

If you had no reason or inclination for entering into or seeking a conflict, you would not have attempted to distort and embellish that which I clearly stated while knowing I would surely respond. If you would care to say why, I'm again listening.

Anytime anyone distorts my comments or falsely accuses me they will surely hear from me.

Why should I be subjected to scrutiny and accountability by anyone, if they are not prepared to accept the same.

[Al Collinsworth]

Jim, I'm sure my Millenium will sound great!!! My Legend's tone is outstanding and my SuperSlide is absolutely gorgeous. I made very good choices with my guitars.

[Les Green]

I make a nine word post and get more responses that I've gotten all together during my many years on this forum! And, some of the info that has been passed on to me..........Why....I had no idea! Hot dang! I'm on a roll...........time for a Coke Classic.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Is the unique, never before acheived tone of the Millennium recognizable, or not?

As the owner of one I'd say it is not recognizable, but it is very very good. The guitar really does sing.

With it's modular pickups system, the Millennium can produce as many different tones as one has pickups, but there is an inherent resonance to the body that makes for better string separation than that which my older guitars produce and an almost military clarity to every note.

I could definitely tell the difference between my Millennium and my older guitars, but then, I'm also intimately familiar with those guitars. I doubt that That I could pick it out of a blindfold test with several other guitars, especially different brands.

But I can tell you that the Millennium is up there with the best of them.

Some day, when my budget permits it, I'll be getting a second one.

(Edited for spelling and typos, not content.)

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

My initial urge is to blame myself, but over the years, I have learned that it's often not the case.

Well Eric, I blame you. For everything, including my bad back and the weather. It's all your fault!!!!

[Al Collinsworth]

..

[b0b]

Reece, I'm sorry, but it looks as though you hope a quantity of verbiage will bury the glaring contradiction pointed out by b0b between what's said on your website and what you've posted here.

I suppose you could say you personally didn't write the blurb on your website, but in the light of your oft-repeated and very clear statements of your opinion on this topic, it would seem to behoove you to disavow it.

Actually, that marketing blurb is on the MSA company web site, not Reece's site. MSA includes several partners and employees. There's no indication that Reece wrote it, or even that he was involved in the creation of that web site.

I was pointing out a difference between the MSA "company line" and Reece's personal opinion. Reece is the most visible spokesperson for MSA but, as a pro musician, it's not surprising that his opinions differ slightly from the official company line.

[b0b]

b0b....
There is no contradiction within my post from long ago which you researched. If you will continue your search you will also find I have eluded to many cosmetic and mental components which manifest themselves and are intertwined within the "perception" of distingushable tone.

To quote an ad slogan, "Perception is not always reality."

[Brint Hannay]

Anytime anyone distorts my comments or falsely accuses me they will surely hear from me.

I'd say "Right back atcha", but sometimes it's best to let things slide. So I may not always respond.

Whats so dramatic and sinister about me suggesting that those so inclined make steel guitar comparisons and do so at their own discretion. This is after all a steel guitar forum.

Perhaps you will explain what is it that bothers you about the comparisons which I have suggested and went into detail to explain.

Nothing bothers me about the comparisons you suggest. Where in my posts do I say anything bothers me about the comparisons you suggest? I asked what they would further.
I certainly never said there was anything sinister about your suggesting them.

I already know why you refuse to explain yourself, but perhaps others would like to hear it from you.

No, please, you first, I'd be fascinated to know why YOU think I "refuse to explain myself".

If you had no reason or inclination for entering into or seeking a conflict, you would not have attempted to distort and embellish that which I clearly stated while knowing I would surely respond

I have not "attempted to distort and embellish", and I resent your suggesting that I have. I merely responded to your statements as I understood them.

I've said I have no axe to grind, and no reason to seek conflict with you. I don't care if you suggest comparisons, or if you or anyone does them, or what the results are if they do. Which I confidently expect would be as you expect them to be, namely, few if any people would succeed. My challenge to you, such as it was, is answered: you say you have failed yourself. I've already said I'm sure I would fail.

I, like some others, was just bugged by your attitude that in the absence of test results your opinion should be assumed to be correct. Even though, I'll say once more, I think it probably is.

And the pointlessness of the whole exercise, as I see it, made me wonder what purpose you felt it would serve. Either people can identify steels by brand, or they can't. So what? As someone involved in the steel guitar industry, you would seem to have more reason to care about the whole issue than others. Hence my original post. I assume you have no motive, and are too smart, to shoot yourself in the foot. So while you say you have nothing to gain from proving people can't tell the difference, I don't know why you'd raise the whole subject if you thought it was going to hurt your business.

I never intended to get into a p***ing contest like this has turned into. I am not an advocate for any particular brand, nor am I opposed to any testing anyone wants to do.

I wish you success in your endeavors. Really.

[Jimmie Martin]

reece are you going to supply the expensive for the comparation that i posted. that will end all speculation. its your ball shoot or pass it. balls in you court.

[C. Christofferson]

Morning y'all. In the last paragraph of your opener Reece you make it clear, from what i make of it, that you are 'tired' of the myth that one brand sounds distinguishable from another. This is understandable from someone in your position. Surely the name Sho-bud must haunt you and msa, and youre just trying to make us aware of the truth that it is just a name, a fine guitar, but not some magical mystical must have. We pretty much all know that when we go out guitar shopping we are (at least a little) prejidiced towards a name which in turn makes us prejidiced against any other name. I commend you on that because a prejidice IS an untruth.
That was the 'cheers', now my personal 'jeers'. Somewhere else you said that you were interested in and pusuing the 'evolution of the instrument'. Back when i first introduced the 'discovery' of an extended neck steel, which i am still playing and enjoying because it works great, i approached you personally through email seeking feedback from a manufacturer. Unlike the large majority you at least were kind enough to open a dialogue and lightly discuss it over a three or four day period - during which you basically shot it down using the same comeback cliches that everyone who was critical of it used. Therefore i question the truth of your statement. Evolution comes in small steps - our dna is 99 point something exactly the same as the ape's. Evolution means change. Fear of change makes for a rather miserable existance. So i guess i will just keep enjoying my evolved msa while some of you get too caught up and sqabble at the egoistic level.
Again though i commend you Reece for being out there and occaisionally vocal. In a country where 'everything you say can and will be used against you' it takes something above the norm to be out there saying it ! cc

[url=http://www.geocities.com/steelexp001/redbaronn.html]modified msa[/url]

[Bob Hoffnar]

If anybody would actually take the time to do a blindfold test they would understand that Reece has a very good and valid point to make about the perseption of sound.

Why anybody would get his panties in a wad about the basic concept/question without putting any effort into checking it out is super goofy.

I am interested in where Ed's ideas/experiments meet Reece's experience. And hearing from guys that did a blindfold test with there buddies. It sounds like a fun thing to do.

[Jim Sliff]

Jim, I'm sure my Millenium will sound great!!! My Legend's tone is outstanding and my SuperSlide is absolutely gorgeous. I made very good choices with my guitars.

Al, I don't doubt that at all. The whole discussion isn't centered on "good" tone - it's about "unique" tone (I think - it's hard to tell at this point, when you add all Reece's comments up).

And as b0b noted, it's fascinating that the single most visible company representative does not seem to agree with his own sales literature.

I also noted zero response to may last post. Either that's a "fold", or he's just warming up.

Regardless - Reece started the thread, voiced his opinion (claiming it's also the opinion of many others without naming or numbering them), put himself in the position of dictating terms by which he would consider dissenting views, claimed he's done such trsting in the past without offereing any evidence or results, and basically has presented an unfouded claim that he says can only be disproven via his approval of methodology.

He's been asked to supply evidence, and has not. He either has none or perhaps he feels he's above what he requires of others.

The conflicts have been noted and dissed, but not debunked.

He wants to be both the legislative (make the laws) and judicial (interpret and apply the laws) branches He presents the persona of the executive branch in his politician-like circular reasoning.

He wants it all under the guise of "oh, but it's good for the industry..." (complete that line with "for others to spend the money to do the testing I require but will not do myself).

[Bob Hoffnar]

Jim,
You seem to be making an incorrect assumption that Reece has not done this experiment himself already. Reece has been in a unique position over the years to be able to conduct those type of experiments all he wants with the best players on the planet as his subjects. Reece has developed his opinions and ideas over the years from direct personal experience and from listening with an open mind to the experience of others.

Rather than play armchair lawyer guy with an anger managment issue it might be more productive and enjoyable to get together with some steel playing friends and see how everybody does guessing which steel is which. Its a surprizingly hard thing to be certain of when you can't see the steels.

My impression is that there are some very real and important differences between steels but it can be very subtle. I have had the opportunity to bring different instruments into critical recording situations and gotten read the riot act by producers who sight unseen asked me what happened to my steel after we started dialing in sounds or sent me home for another amp.
They all sounded fine to me but the engeneer wasn't having it.

[Jimmie Martin]

well b0b that should about do it. you can go ahead and close this thread up. oops this isn't mine to close sorry

[Al Collinsworth]

...

[Donny Hinson]

I wonder, since we've only been talking about pedal steels here, does anyone out there think that straight guitars also have a "unique and recognizable" tone?

(No silly, I'm not talking about telling a Gretsch Country Gentleman from a Fender Stratocaster. I'm talking about undeniably recognizing the difference in sound between two different brands of similar design...say, a G&L ASAT and a Fender Tele?)

[Rick Nicklas]

This post edited per Dave Mudgett's response. I am also pulling out per his response. I already put my thoughts on the 1st page. I will keep an eye on this thread though because it is interesting to see and read everyone's interpretations and responses to the subject.

[Dave Mudgett]

I also noted zero response to may last post. Either that's a "fold", or he's just warming up.

Geez, guys - this isn't a poker game! Obviously, some of you don't think this is worth doing. Fine. Why don't you let it go, and leave this thread for people who are interested in Reece's experiment? It's hard to detect the signal on this thread from the noise.

I haven't done double-blind listening tests with pedal steels, but I sure have with guitars. Even with guitars of somewhat different character - let's say Strat vs. Tele - in the right hands, it can be real hard to tell the difference between them when tested in a truly double-blind way, if you allow the player to tweak things to their liking. When you just strum them lightly - no problem telling the difference. But the right hands and a little knob-tweaking can do wonders, IMO. I think modern pedal steels tend to be even more homogeneous sounding. This is one of the reasons I suspect Reece's hypothesis isn't that far off. But I think it's pretty straightforward to test it. Maybe some people can really "walk the walk" and discern very subtle differences with just their ears. Maybe truly "expert" musicians and listeners do better than the average person.

But, IMO, the only way to cut through the underbrush on this is to do proper double-blind studies. There's a lot of theoretical and empirical evidence that people often see and hear what they expect to see and hear. The study of psychoacoustics deals with this heavily. If you're interested, it's not hard to find relevant articles and books. There are plenty of recent articles and theses relating to music listening and discrimination indexed at Citeseer: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu which is housed downstairs from my office in the College of Information Sciences and Technology at Penn State. Warning: There can be useful and readable info in these kind of articles, especially in the background sections - but the new research and results sections are often arcane and technical. If you hate technical stuff, you probably won't want to mess with this.

With that said, I found these two MIT Ph.D. theses interesting:

http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/scheirer00m ... ening.html

http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/martin99soundsource.html

The Scheirer thesis, in particular, discusses how difficult timbre discrimination can be, and also points out significant differences between the discrimination power of musically "expert" vs. "non-expert" listeners. There is a lot of work in this area, if one wants to drill down into the literature. A lot of the technical work is geared to automated auditory discrimination systems, but the basic principles and history apply to the general problem, and many discuss the relation to human auditory discrimination.

On a related but slightly different slant - here's an article by a guy who discusses the "expectations game" in the context of guitar woods - and why it's so hard to find guitar buyers who are willing to buy, or even accept, guitars made of "non-traditional" guitar-making woods. He argues "... the sound of an instrument is in the hands of the maker, not in the wood." Same basic type of argument - but it's no accident that he titles his article The Heretic's Guide to Alternative Lutherie Woods. Here's the link: http://www.guitarnation.com/articles/calkin.htm

[Bob Simmons]

Hi, Reese. Oh, well, let me put in my 2 cents. I think every guitar has it's own signature. I've rebuilt many steels and I know just to tare one down and put it back together again can change the tone. Also, I've changed out the same type pickup on a single guitar and many times got a different tone ( same impedance) I believe the ways parts torque to the cabinet and wood density is a big factor (notice I didn't mention mica - don't think it makes a hill of beans!)

[Reece Anderson]

Jim S….It appears our boats are on a different pond. I do however respect your opinions and your right to express them. I’ll look forward to meeting you in your area in the near future.

Jimmie M….What a great idea of getting together for a comparison, which I will certainly consider……..provided you will agree to take the test, and if you fail, you will reimburse me for all expenses, including mine.

Incidentally, I can understand why you would be anxious for b0b to close this thread, you have a lot to lose if your offer is sincere.

Brint H….Once again I see where you failed to read my posts which I’m sure makes some wonder how you believe you can make accurate statements about what I have said when you obviously don’t even read my comments. I have already answered your question as to what comparisons would accomplish.

There’s no need for me to explain to you that which I already know, and I’m aware that you know yourself. So I’ll leave it to your discretion if you wish to attempt to justify your comments.

Concerning yet another statement you made….why should it bother or concern anyone if I relate that which I have observed many times over the past 30 years. My statement did not display a pompous or negative attitude, and I even eluded to the fact my statement was predicated on numerous observations made over many years, all of which shaped my belief.

You asked why I even introduced the subject, and you will find in my posts where I have already addressed that as well. As I said before, this is after all....the steel guitar forum.

I am left with no option other than to believe it was your intention to become engaged or you would have asked for specific clarification from me before you distorted the expressed meaning of my comments.

C. Christofferson….It appears my honest opinion offended you concerning your long scale neck, although that is what you asked me for. All I can say is, it was my honest opinion and it was provided courteously and in a positive spirit.

I fail to understand how or why you would question my being truthful, and would enter this conversation with a negative attitude toward me for simply sharing my honest opinion with you, which again, you asked for and recieved.

I must admit your doing so is disappointing, and I can only conclude you would have preferred that I had not provided you with what I believed to be the truth.

[Reece Anderson]

Dave M....Thank you for your unbaised, intelligent, and informative post. I also appreciate you providing such great links relative to this subject.

[Eric West]

I guess all the peasants can go home now.

The castle wouldn't burn..



EJL