New brand of steel guitars

[Ron !]

Mike Wheeler said;

How about some kind of strap on design so the player could stand up and move around a little, but with a pedal board on the floor...maybe cabled...or how about a wireless controller? Phil Baugh was going in this direction, but with all the new technology, there might be a way.

Already done Mike.Check Wayne Link's site out.
http://www.mts.net/%7Elinkon/steel_images.html

Further more.If you have a business for a long time you might have the opportunity to do build a 3x2 or3x3 for under $850.
Carter is doing this already and they do a good job at it.But that is not the section of players that I am aming for.
I like to build custom build steels with features that players cannot find at other builders.So called one of a kind steel guitars.
I am thinking in bringing back the cable system Fender used for a while because of the fact that there is a wide range of 400,800,1000 and 2000 players.
I am also thinking of a different kind of changer unit.Not like the Whitney or a P/P changer but completely different.But it's still on the drawingboard.But like I said.....before I even start I want to hear from you all.
Some people asked me if I want to build a couple guitars a year or build more then that a year.
I cannot answer that yet.It depends on what you all want and desire in a steel guitar and if it can be done.
I received mails from people that asked me if I understand the costs of all this.Yes I do know.

I just want to know if there are players that have wishes and what those wishes are.

Ron

[Gary Preston]

Ron, it's hard for me to believe that there is enough material in ''ANY '' pedal steel guitar to justify the selling prices that we see in todays market . At one time i ran the ''Estimating Department '' of our multi millon dollar company . I knew most of the cost of material in the industry . Also i could look at an item and tell if you were in the ball park or blowing smoke ! Maple or Aluminum isn't that expensive regardless how old it is ! What has taken place in my opinion is that we let the pedal steel go crazy with the prices and didn't speak up about it . But again we have done the same thing with '' GAS '' prices ! In conclusion if you want to get started in the steel guitar building business you better have a great selling
promotion kinda thing . What can you offer that others havn't already done ? In my opinion no steel guitar should have the selling price that we see today . A fair price for a D-10 should be around the price of a SD-10 or much less ! If you are selling '' Labor '' then you can put any price that you want and see if you can make a go of it but as far as material cost goes it doesn't justify the selling prices today . But on the other hand some of the companys do have close to a two year waiting list . WOW i cant believe that ! Good luck and happy hunting ! Gary .

[Eugene Cole]

My perspective on acquiring PSG's and all of my other instruments has basically always been to buy good used instruments. I would rather let someone else eat the initial depreciation. So I do not represent the target market which you as a maker of new PSG's needs to address. I do however represent a substantial portion of a very small market. So weigh my thoughts accordingly.

I think that most people that want to try to learn to play PSG are going to try to minimize the cost of their first instrument, and will start with a used instrment. So the majority of people that will purchase a new PSG are not going to be students.

I feel that basically all decent/good quality PSG's are "boutique" instruments. The volume of production and the limited demand for new instruments makes it this way.

I also think that to be able to break-even building a PSG one needs to create a "good" word-of-mouth reputation and to have owners that will allow other people to try out their instruments. Metaphorically speaking: I do not buy a car without either taking it for a test drive, or test-driving one which is very-much like it.

I also prefer to look at the cars undercarriage and under the hood to make sure that it will easy to work on.

Unless I am buying a classic-car I also like to investigate the availability and the cost of parts. With PSG's this poses a very real challenge because something as simple as adding an additional pedal with 3 changes can add-up pretty fast. Lets see not including the tools which I already own I would need:
3 bell-cranks
1 cross-rod
3 hex-nuts at the changer end (or whatever this brand uses)
1 additional pedal (and bracket)
? some rod stock
? and ball & socket assemblies
? and maybe bushings, and ,and....

I learned this lesson with my first PSG (an MSA D10) I knew the guitar was machined for additional pedals and I tried to source parts. At that time I found someone that had new old-stock MSA pedals and cross-rods. This same person would also machine bellcranks and could provide the other assorted parts. At the time (late 1980's) I had spent over $900 over a 16-24 month period to buy a guitar, strings, volume pedal, and a bullet bar. The cost of sourcing the parts alone was more than I was willing to spend.

To bring this tangent to a conclusion: I have never purchased a PSG since then without either: investigating the availability of parts, the cost of parts, making sure that the PSG came with spare parts, and/or having an agreement from the seller that I would have some inspection period during which I could return the guitar for a refund.

[Jim Sliff]

I think there's probably much more potential for a decent, expandable, sub-$1000 3+4 than a $3,700 guitar of any kind.

[Brad Malone]

Gary, With all the discussion here about the cost of Steels, no one has done a PARTS cost analysis That, to me, would be a good starting point. Once one knows all the parts required, one can then go on to find the best and cheapest suppliers of the parts needed. From that point on it becomes an assembly job plus the art work required on the body of the Steel. Some people are quicker than others, so efficiency and speed enter into the equation. Cost of labor is always a fuzzy issue so to really have a good cheap Steel, after the design and parts factors are solved you might have to seek a good but cheap labor market the way the other industries have done.

[Erv Niehaus]

Personally speaking, I don't think I'd be interested in

purchasing a pedal steel guitar with a sign on it that says:

"made in China".

[Brad Malone]

Hey ERV, I was really thinking of SRI Lanka...I just checked my 2002 Almanac and found that the GDP in China was $3800 and only $2600 in SRI Lanka...we got to watch those labor costs...LOL.

[Brad Malone]

Hey ERV, I was really thinking of SRI Lanka...I just checked my 2002 Almanac and found that the GDP in China was $3800 and only $2600 in SRI Lanka...we got to watch those labor costs...LOL.

[Gary Preston]

Hi Brad . I forgot to add that the cost analysis was also the part of my job to sell great products . I to had to report to others as where my prices came from ! So yes we have to do our homework before we ask a '' Very High '' price for our products . Also it has to meet certain specs to satisfy our customers . With so many folks making steel guitars i would be scared to peices to even think of such a thing . But i do wish anyone all the best to start out on such a journey these days and times ! Best regards , Gary .

[Erv Niehaus]

Brad,

Yes, I'm certainly behind times. I remember when they started importing stuff from Japan, just junk!

Then they improved the quality and yes, the prices went up.

I guess you can't have both: quality and low price.

What is disgusting though, is when you order something from a reputable company with a US address and when you get the product it says "Made in China".

[Brad Malone]

Hi ERV, I was just trying to add to Gary Preston's great line of thinking. After we do a cost analysis of parts and do the required engineering, then we build the prototype, modify it and get opinions of some good players..after a majority give their rave approval it becomes a matter of labor. The average wage in the USA is about $15 per hour. Assembling and doing the final adjustments on a steel is time consuming. So if we say it takes 80 hours to assemble and do the final tweaking and quality control work before shipping at $15 an hour the labor would come to $1200...now if we can find a place where people are happy with $2 per hour the labor would run $160 for a labor savings of $1040 I really think that 80 hours is probably being very liberal for assembly and fine tuning but I may be wrong...let me have your thoughts.

[Brad Malone]

Gary, It is because of your extensive training and experience in the field of "cost analysis" that gives you the powerful insights as to "what things should cost" that many people just do not have. Your cost analysis training blows the smoke away..thanks for your great post
Brad

[Ron !]

The average wage in the USA is about $15 per hour

geee...in PA it's $7,25 an hour.....I don't know where you get that number from Brad but I am moving over to your area.Further more....80hours?
I will not get in to this further no more.If people want to have a good playing "Custom" build steel then they can talk to me by e-mail.
But after all the hate-mails I received over the past days(saying that our community is not waiting for another over-prised brand of steel guitars)I might re-consider about getting back into building.
Why is it that people do this?You tell me because I honestly do not know why people are so afraid about a new brand coming in to the market.It was a question that I asked.And was waiting for an honest answer......I had several over the mail.People told me that they would buy if the steel guitar had several options that other builders don't put on their guitars.

It's easy for people to point and say....hey there is another wannabee builder......
I have been building steels for almost 15years.From lapsteel,dobro's to full loaded Pedal steel guitars.

Nobody ever said it on this forum before but I will......I might get flamed real bad but I don't care.....
Players...............why don't you all focus on what you really want in a steel guitar instead of following the crowd.
Stand out from the rest....that is what makes a good steel guitar player....not what brand you play...Tone is in the hands and mind...

Like I said....if somebody needs a good custom build steel then mail me and we can talk...

Ron

[Brad Malone]

Ron, I have the 2002 World Almanac and on page 145 it covers the subject of Hourly compensation costs which is $19.86 in the USA and only $2.46 in Mexico for the year 2000, that includes wages and benefits...the source is the U. S dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics. On the same page it states that the average hourly U. S. Production Workers wage is $13.75 for the year 2000...I would guess that in 7 years that wage would have easily reached the $15 or $16 mark when one inputs a 3% annual increase. In many cases the US workers just cannot compete with the cheap labor of many countries..hence, the reason for the movement of industries to low wage countries.

[Ron !]

the average hourly U. S. Production Workers wage is $13.75

In Pennsylvania it is almost $9,60...sounds crooked huh?

Ron

[Erv Niehaus]

Ron,
I think a lot of steel players really don't know what they want in a guitar.
They just sit down at the guitar, start mashing pedals and if they can get the sound they want, they are satisfied.

If something goes wrong with the instrument, they take it to a pedal steel mechanic and have them fix it. Let's face it, there are musicians, guitar mechanics and then, various combinations of both.

In my case, I guess maybe I'm more of a mechanic than a musician. I love working on old pedal steels but I also enjoy playing them.
It seems my guitars have their legs in the air as much as on the floor.
Take care and good luck,
Erv

[Jim Cohen]

Hate mail? Hate mail?? I'm shocked to hear that anyone would send you hate mail just because you're thinking of entering the steel guitar market! I'm sure none of the other builders would ever stoop to doing that (and if they did, you'd be well in your rights to publicize it widely here), so it must be from players. Why on earth would players try to intimidate someone into not making steel guitars? You don't want it, don't buy it! Sheesh! I guess there's scum in every community.

As to your main point, though, I think you need to take the leadership and initiative. We have recently had an entire thread here devoted to 'what would you want in your next guitar?' I trust you have already read and digested that. I'm not sure what more you'd hope to get with your present question.

Decide what you feel you can improve on that matters to the players, get a few technically-oriented pro's to be advisors (and to sign on to showcase the guitars once they're available), and just do it. And if you get any more 'hate mail', post the names of the offenders right here.

That's my 2 cents, FWIW.

[Brad Malone]

Ron states>In Pennsylvania it is almost $9,60...sounds crooked huh?


Ron, Would you please state the source of your information..I stated my source.

[Savell]

There will always be a place in “the market” for custom products. But usually those draw the attention of the customers that have years of experience with the product itself and have a strong sense of what they expect from the product. Custom products are expected to have a high price. Most custom product buyers spend many hours in preparation and expect to lay out the dough. This trims the client list quite a bit.

Most of us may not have reached that level as of yet. We still remember the days when we were trying to decide how to get started. In that frame of mind, we are thinking about what could have made that first step (“the first time purchase”) easier.

I am convinced that a good quality (re: quality = the customer’s expectations) S10 or SD10 with 3X2 and a snappy modern appearance would make some vendor a lot of money. It can take a new player quite a while to master the 2 left knees. Appearance means a lot to a new player. Younger players want a zestful image that does not look like dad's guitar. I really like the idea stated above about art decor with a variety of themes. I am not sure a new player is concerned with mechanical design so much. They just don’t want to be seen with a “plastic cheapie” or broken product. They want any experienced player to walk up to their guitar and say something nice about it. They want everyone to get excited about this new instrument that they have chosen as their place on the scene. They want it at a price they can afford without being forced to sell the 6 string they left back at the house. These units that have appeal can be re-sold and handed down for years to come or possibly be affordable enough that many will hold on to them as a keepsake.

The market is big enough for anybody to dive in. The key for success is how well the product matches the quality of the market share that is being targeted.

[Gary Preston]

Guys i would think that every steel player with any experience at all should know what he wants in a guitar ! Remember it's not a car / boat etc . It doesn't come with air and heat and a drop top ! The biggest thing that i see is that players complain about the guitar when it doesn't come back to pitch after engaging the floor pedals or knee levers . Another thing is cabinet drop and other little things like string breakage . I'm not even going into the ''tone '' end of it , we all know what we want there don't we ? As far as how long it takes to make a quality guitar in my mind it's mostly how much experience that a guy has and in my field experience is where it's at . An '' old '' hand can do one faster than a ''new guy on the block '' . Cost is always going to be what it is no matter what . I don't think any of us meant to hurt anyones feelings at all . I think the post was about opinions wasn't it ? If i offended anyone please forgive me ,i didn't mean to do that at all . Best regards , Gary .

[James Cann]

I'd buy one like that from you for the right price...

OK, so cut to the chase, buyer: what's the right price?

[Brad Malone]

An '' old '' hand can do one faster than a ''new guy on the block '' <<

Gary, You make another very good observation. After one gets the cost analysis of parts and selects his suppliers, builds the acceptable prototype, he must then do a time study and determine the amout of time it will take to put the parts together and do the final quality control work to achieve a finished product. Some people are much faster than others so the builder may have to go though 20 employee's before selecting the final two or three that will qualify to perform the selected building time. This is why companies have probationary periods of usually 60 to 90 days before they make an employee's job permanent. The reason that Steels are so expensive is that most of them are built in one man custom shops. If people would just accept a standard Steel, like a D-10 with 8 pedals and 7 knee levers, someone could make the product and the buyer could pick it up at the Music store but when everybody wants their instrument custom built the cost triples in price...if they would build cars like they build Steels, the cars would cost $400,000...and the custom one's do.

[Gary Preston]

Brad it appers that you and i are on the same track ! Maybe we should start a consulting firm huh ? You are very right there has to be much thought / planning and many phone calls and selecting the right folks to get the job done . I wish everyone the best in fulfilling their dreams but reality will sit in after a while and we must be ready to address it . We all know that there are steel guitar makers that are selling their guitars for more money than this one so folks are paying these prices ! I repeat what i have said before --- It's what you want to sell your labor for ! Gary .

[Brad Malone]

Gary, Everything we have said here has already been done by the regular 6 string lead guitar makers. The regular lead guitar market is probably 10,000 times bigger than the Steel Guitar Market. Let's face the fact that the Steel market is much smaller because there is much more involved in learning the instrument and it is also much more time consuming. In this fast world, very few people have the luxury of time or the amount of love and devotion needed to learn it and the few that do will have to pay the price of buying custom build instruments made in one man shops. What really surprises me is that there are so many builders competing in such a small market..we are very lucky that some are doing it for a labor of love and very few are getting rich, although some may be making a very decent living doing it. Considering the time it takes to assemble and fine tune the instrument before shipping it, doing it the way they are doing it, makes one wonder how long many will survive. It also seems that the bulk of posters on SGF are 40 or over which is also not a good sign for the instruments growth...hope I'm wrong.

[Connie Mack]

hey ron,
noticed the post about wood that you put in that other thread, i don't know exactly where you are in pennsylvania, but i sometimes get wood for large projects(making it worthwhile to have it shipped) from an outfit called hearne hardwoods. look it up, if it's near you, rick hearne will take you through his selections and let you choose whatever you want. he is a huge dealer with some really amazing woods but is just a nice guy who also likes music. that way you could see exactly what you are buying. just a thought. hope it helps.