Ok here it goes.A couple years ago I started building steel guitars and rebuilding steel guitars.I brought a new brand on the market.The Nikaro steel.
Since that time I moved to Pennsylvania and I am thinking of starting again with building.
My question to all of you is this.
What do you think is a reasonable price for a D-10 Pedal Steel Guitar?
Some of you will think......ohhh no...not another one.Yep!!!!....another one.
But seriously.What do you think is a good price?
Here are a couple steels that I build and rebuild.
I am thinking of purchasing my first steel this year so here's what I did. Go to Links-Manufactures and look at the features and prices of a dozen or more steels. You will find the average list for good steels around $2300 and the money is no object price at $4000. If you have a superior product then the "big guys" charge accordingly.
But here is my point of view.I can build a nice D10 9x7...(and it will be a very good build and clean instrument) for less then $3700.The guitar that I am talking about right now has standard pick-ups(probably George L's) a triple-double changer,grover gear,wooden necks(yes...with the tone compartment in it)and is completely mirror polished...TOP to BOTTOM.
Now................I don't want to step on any toes but that is what I can build them for...give or take a few $$.($50-$100)
Do ya'll think that's a good price?
Now do not start mailing me all at once with orders cause I am setting up shop and only want to get some info on all this before I start pumping thousands of dollars in this shop.
I want an honest opinion from players.That's what this mail is all about.
let me know....
Ron
P.S......Chris shoot me a mail with your phone number so I can give you a call...thanks bud...
Ron, there's a lot of guys who know more about this than I do, but FWIW, my impression is that, if you can make them for 'under $3700" and then still have to add a profit margin on top of that, you will be pricing yourself near the top end of the market. To succeed there, you will have to establish a very high-end 'boutique image' based on design innovations, craftsmanship, tolerances, etc. You'll definitely need to start showing us the sexy underbelly of your guitars, and closeup views of the changer, fit and finish, etc. It's hard for a new guy to come in at the top of the market, but it can be done. Noel Anstead has done it, but then again he probably doesn't make and sell too many in a year. So it may also depend on how much volume you're looking to do.
Jim,thanks for your 2/1cent(s)...gives me that extra pack of butter.
I am being honest here now.I just want a little piece of the market.I can't even think about the type of business that all the other builders have right now.Because they are on the market for a long time.
But like we Dutch people are always saying..."he who don't shoot will always miss.
That's why I am asking.
I am in the process of shipping al my machinery over here from Europe and am putting in 220Volt and 440 in my place so that I have what I need.
But like I said......before I start producing I just want to know if people are in the market for this.
Ron, if you use the Polling facility of this forum, you can get an answer to the following question:
"Would you buy a new steel from an unknown builder?"
"Yes" or "No"?
If the answer is YES, you can then deal with the pricing.
Thanks Nic,but i am not new to building.And a lot of people have seen what I can build.
I received a couple interesting e-mails that had some good pointers which I will take in consideration.
One of them said,
There were about 10 different items which ranged
from simple gauged rollers to the presently impossible electronically operated
pedals. But a lot of things were reasonable and easily do-able. Like dual
pickups, more adjustable knees, findertip tuning... Or a revamped body style to
where the legs could be foded down with pedals and levers still attached.
Another thing what this e-mail said was this,
The last thing the world needs is another overpriced $3700 steel guitar.
Ok now.....It says here overpriced.This is exactly why I put this topic up here.I want to hear your opinion on this.At least this is an opinion.This man told me that $3700 is overpriced.But would it be over priced if these steelguitars were build to the buyers wishes?Like wooden necks,double pick-ups,foldable legs,adjustable knee-levers etc etc?
Ow before I forget...here is the brand name and logo
Ron,
I have undertaken a lot of different ventures over the years and I hate to say this but I think you're setting yourself up for a lot of heartache and disappointments.
There are a lot of pedal steel guitar builders out there already and, in all honesty, I'll bet most of them are struggling to make ends meet.
As a new kid on the block you would have an especially hard time to make a go at it.
If you are content to crank out a couple of guitars a year just for giggles, go for it. But, if expect to set the world on fire with a "new and improved" pedal steel guitar, I'm afraid you have a long and twisting road ahead of you.
A custom built guitar with cost of material and time involved is reasonable at 3700.00. Each player has items they want and are on there must have list. I have been thinking of getting a custom one made myself.
It all comes down to what you can buy quaility preassemmbled parts for and keep the prices down. Volume buying helps here. If you had to mill all the parts you would be working for about .50 per hour. If you build a quality guitar and have good customer service skills you will have more orders than you could ever produce on a one to three man shop. Were most business fail. They do not add buffer into the price to cover customer services, marketing, R and D time. This is hard to do on the small scale shops. I do not know of any small builder getting rich on such a small market. My question to you would be. Are you building these guitars for a living or a side line? Can you afford to invest about 35K to start up and live for about a year until your marketing starts to bring the volume to turn a profit.
I have two Thomas steel that I believe that were the best steels made at the time around 1995. Barry did his homework and did not cut corners on quality. If Barry were building today I'd find a way to get the money needed to get a custom steel built by him. This is the type of customer you are looking for. To steal a line from a great movie "build it and they will come". People will always pay for quaility.
Dear Ron, Please consider what Erv Niehaus said..he knows what he is talking about. We had a thread awhile back and came to the conclusion that only about 500 New Steels were built yearly. The market is just too small and there are plenty of great builders to supply that small market. If you are going to do it for a labor of love, that's one thing but if you want to make a buck IMHO I would suggest that you use your great skills elsewhere.
Brad
I wish someone would build a simple, quality, no-frills, S-10 3x2 for less than $1000. I think if somebody did that, then more people would get into playing.
I think there are a lot of people out there who have an interest in dabbling in the psg as a secondary instrument, but they don't want to buy a cheap beginner guitar, and they're scared away by the 2, 3, and 4 grand prices of the quality instruments.
A quality pedal steel (not a cheap, beginner guitar) for less than $1,000! If you looking for something with only 2 knee levers, in my estimation, that is a beginner's guitar.
If you look at pedal steels on e-bay, most listed for sale are the low end models. I think that would be the best avenue for someone looking to dip their toes in PSG, buy something used.
The problem with a beginner buying something used is that it casts a large shadow of doubt as to the quality of the purchase. Most of the stuff on eBay is a P.O.S. and someone didn't want to take the time to fix it and learn.
Ron, I'm with Tom. You should put your engineering knowledge into financial strategy and build a quality 3x3 or 3x4 steel for no more than $850. You'll sell 'em then. And why not make it an easy switch from E9 to E7 SS? Every time I play out I get people my age (20s) ask if I listen to Robert Randolph (which I don't). I know you can play that stuff on E9, but these guys don't see it that way. Why not sell them a guitar like they want that's already set up and ready to go?
The high-end market is covered. Almost completely saturated. But the market for an affordable, quality S10 is dry. GFI is the only brand that comes to mind, and their double frame models approach 2 grand.
I have only shopped a very little bit for new guitars. So my uneducated first glace thought was that so many of the new guitars are clones of each other. I don't mean that in a negative way because I'm sure they have perfected the guitar that they want and they happen to have many of the same qualities and so they looks very similar to me. I feel like I could only tell one from another by the name on the front. (I'm sure there are more ways than that but I'm not familar with those guitars to see it) and I've heard people say that most of the new guitars are top quality and sound fairly similar to the extent that most people couldn't tell them apart.
I can't aimagine a 6 sting guitar world where all of the guitars looked and sounded the same. I'm sure I'm not alone in that I don't want a guitar that looks or sounds like everyone else. It's business. Fill in where there is something lacking. People are talking about bells and whistles on the same old guitar. How about something unusal. Make it 'different' and people will come.
Maybe get a good industial designer or an artist to have a go at a new look, Something Art Deco? Space age? Auto inspired? Inlayed or etched metal? Carved wood? Mutiple metal materials as a veneer? Look at national guitars.
Just throwing out some ideas, you can chose to throw them out.
Hmmmmm. I like that thinking, Steve. A low priced, reasonable quality, guitar that plays like a pedal steel, but looks different than the current models available. Look at all the differences between 6 string guitars.
How about some kind of strap on design so the player could stand up and move around a little, but with a pedal board on the floor...maybe cabled...or how about a wireless controller? Phil Baugh was going in this direction, but with all the new technology, there might be a way.
I think the young rockers would go for that big time. We need some fresh ideas to attract the 6 stringers who like to jump around on stage and do unique things.
I have another great idea!
How about some sort of helmet you wear with electric selenoids that you could activate the string changes by wiggling your ears and nose. Maybe even by blinking your eyes or sticking out your tongue. You could dance all over the stage and really get the audience excited. Oh, by the way, you'd have to keep the cost somewhere around $695.00.
PS: Mike, sorry you took offense at this posting. It was just a left-handed Norwegian's attempt at humor.
Last edited by Erv Niehaus on 6 Feb 2007 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
something with only 2 knee levers, in my estimation, that is a beginner's guitar.
Well, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. My opinion is that much of the PSG stuff that I personally enjoy and aspire to is from the 60's and 70's and much of that was played and/or can be played on a 3x2. In fact, there's a heck of a lot of good music that's been played on early Fender psg's that didn't have any knee levers.
Of course there are some who would accept nothing less than a full blown 3x5 -- these are the people who are psg players first. However, like I said, I think there are a lot of people out there who are interested in the psg, but not as a first instrument, and who would like to get a new quality instrument that has just the basics and that won't cost an arm and a leg.
I wasn't saying anything about a price. Good work takes time and money. A cheap guitar would have to be trimmed down in one way or another. I was just sying it would be nice to see a different guitar and if it has to be expensive then at least there would be a choice.
Almost every product made today has an industrial designer involved. It's just a person that makes even the most basic products have an interesting look to them. I'm suggesting that there could be a market for a guitar with a diferent look and sound. How about a guitar with a Bigsby look and modern parts, or a Rickenbacker look, or those old art deco national lap steels.Those had some great details. I mentioned metals as an option to mica over the normal maple body, or as an option to wood or abolone inlay. Endplates, legs and necks can have some etching or other fancy stuff. Kind of like on gun barrels or swords. Maybe it can be cast that way? At least you could use a template and sand blast or etch it. You could inlay metal into wood. Aprons could have a different shape. I don't think these things are that extreme.
I just watched that Al brisco DVD with the Ralph Mooney stuff and Al gets some cool sounds without knees. Jeff Newman gets some nice sounds with just A and B. The guys playing until the mid 60's seemed to do fine with the limits that they had. Maybe triple lowers and five knees and whatever else isn't needed by a lot of people. Do those things add a lot onto a guitar? If a ton of people play a basic emmons set up, is there a huge need to have so many options? I say that honestly because I've only been playing a few years and the emmons set up seems pretty good to me so far. If dollars could be saved by limiting the copedant, then might that be something to think about?
From what I have observed, there is little demand for parts--if the guitar is well made in the first place. So I would not count on a very lucrative aftermarket. If your building materials are (eg,) $800.00 + 2000.00 labor, you might have your retail price structured at 2x: i.e., $5600.00. HJ
Oh, OK. Well, yeah, I agree that hopefully almost all builders try to build their guitars without the hope of making a bunch of money selling replacement parts for them.
In fact, I would say that the builders who end up selling fewer replacement parts per guitar are the ones with the highest reputation for quality.
