how much do you get paid for studio work?

[Chris Erbacher]

i know this has been covered in another place, but i was unable to find it, so i am asking again...how much is the going rate for a pedal steel player to do studio work? i understand that you don't get royalties on any sales unless you get it in writing, but i am unsure of what to charge people who ask for my services. i'm not a pro, but i am able to put a nice track down in a couple of takes and usually recieve high praises from the people i have worked with and others who have listened to my work, granted, most of these people probably don't know much about steel, or who buddy emmons is for that matter, but they do have ears, and some of them are good musicians, and i guess they qualify for that reason. underlying my question is another question...or maybe a reflection...do you guys feel sort of disrespected or bummed that you put in so much practice time and invest in the highest quality gear you can afford, put all you effort into laying a nice track, then to only get a few dollars for your beautiful work? many times it is hacked up and put into pieces by someone else and in many cases, makes the song a lot better just having it there. maybe i'm ranting, but i feel like as a musician and "sideman" we are all getting screwed on some level by not recieving equal rights to royalties and/or really high wages considering how rare a pedal steel player is compared to the amount ofmusicians out there. i don't know...maybe i'm crazy...

[chas smith R.I.P.]

do you guys feel sort of disrespected or bummed that you put in so much practice time and invest in the highest quality gear you can afford, put all you effort into laying a nice track, then to only get a few dollars for your beautiful work? many times it is hacked up and put into pieces by someone else and in many cases, makes the song a lot better just having it there. maybe i'm ranting, but i feel like as a musician and "sideman" we are all getting screwed on some level by not recieving equal rights to royalties and/or really high wages considering how rare a pedal steel player is compared to the amount ofmusicians out there.

You're saying that because we show up with an unusual instrument, we should be paid more? Every musician I've worked with had the highest quality gear they could afford, and it usually cost a lot more than what I was "packing" (the cellist's bow cost more than my set-up). They also spend as much, or more, time than I do practicing their instruments.

How well do you read? That can be a determining factor on how valuable your services are. You can bitch and moan that you aren't getting as much as you deserve, but ultimately, it comes down to, if you don't like the job, don't take the call.

[John Steele (deceased)]

The only "royalties" I've ever run into doing studio work is the member of the Royalty whose vanity project I'm contributing to. I doubt anyone much will ever hear any of this stuff, except as a keepsake for grandchildren or something.
My opinion is, set a flat rate, take the money, and run.
Last time I spent an afternoon in the studio, I was paid $200.
You mileage may vary.
-John

[john widgren]

Check your local union for rates. Know that the rates are standardized minimums for a professional player. All kinds of scenarios are covered. If you are better than the average bear, or are in high demand, of course, charge more. Plenty of working pros demand and get double scale (and more) If you are a pro, or even a talented amateur you should never charge less, that just hurts everyone and demeans you. Note: Charity work and God being two obvious exceptions.

[Don Discher]

Hey, ask the lead guitar player or fiddle player what he makes for the session, I would think that's a good starting point,unless they are regular band members. Having bigger/heavier/ more expensive equipment won't get you more money if you compare it to what Charlie McCoy made with his harmonica.

[Michael Douchette]

I'm sorry... I just don't think it's proper to ask someone, regardless of job, what they get paid for it. Scale info is available from www.afm.org .

[Roger Rettig]

Chris

No-one gets royalties based on sales from playing on a session. There is recognition for all the sessions one has done under AFM auspices, and this will factor into the pension you ultimately qualify for.

Read Chas Smith's post again and absorb it well....

It's one thing to noodle some pretty stuff over some predictable chord-changes on someone's demo tape - those folks are probably pleased to know someone who owns a steel - but the 'real world' of professional recording acknowledges the talent and flair of Paul Franklin, Sonny Garrish and a few others. These luminaries are quick, clean, inventive and have a wealth of ideas and technique, most of which we'll never see. What you're hearing on a 'top forty' record is just the tip of the iceberg.

Don't undersell yourself - John Widgren's point is well taken - but try to get a clear idea of what you're really worth. Only the very best musicians have what it takes to live in that pressure-cooker and still sound relaxed.

RR

[Chris Erbacher]

i'm sorry if i sound like i am bitching...your points are well taken, and i really am just saying what i have been thinking about. i view a song from the standpoint that everyone involved in it made it happen. it is pretty messed up that someone who plays a really sweet part, regardless of instrument, weight, years played on the instrument, whether or not they can read music...can only get what amounts to a pittance for their work when you compare it to the big picture. are we no different than a roofer building a house? how did it get this way? when was there a vote to see who was more important in the creation of songs? maybe i'm young and stupid, or idealistic, but you guys know as well as i do that when you are playing a song, one part not there changes everything. i guess i'm coming from a different ethos than a lot of people, i hope i'm not, but maybe i am. chas, i really am just wondering how much i can charge, and maybe i should have asked what the scale was and left it at that. i guess yeah i am saying these things because of the rarity of the steel in music today, in some sense. a lot of things in this world operate on supply and demand. i guess take the money and run is the best policy, and get what you can for your time.

[Roger Rettig]

Chris

Look at it this way....

A musician gets a call, goes and does the session, gets his money and walks - that's the end of his involvement.

The guys who decide to invest time and money in the process of producing a record just may make a million dollars out of it, but the likelihood is that they won't. The musician only commits to do what's asked of him for an agreed sum and there's no gamble - he's got his money, regardless of whether the song makes any money or not. It's the same principle as giving your boss a day's work for an agreed rate-of-pay - he takes the risks and you don't.

As for the relative value of the individual contributions of the musicians involved - well, their ability to 'get it done' is why they got the call (and their living) in the first place.

I know a violinist in the UK (no names!) who did a session for Paul McCartney in the late 1970s. A couple of years later he was in the same room as Paul, and he was silly enough to make a crack about how little he got paid compared to the runaway success of the record. McCartney said: 'Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you got paid on the day, didn't you?"

I bet he never got another call from that particular source...

RR

[Dave Ristrim]

Chris, you can ask for as much money as you want. Whether you get it is another story.
I am from the Bay Area in CA, and when I did session work out there, I feel I was payed fairly. I did learn to charge different producers differently. For example, one producer would ask me to try parts a thousand different ways and we would spend hours on one song. For him, I would charge by the hour. Other producers would allow me "to do my thing", and I could charge per song and clean up. Sometimes, I would be adding parts to a whole project, say, 10 songs, in 3 or 4 hours!
I think the rates the A.F. of M. set are fair, and a good place to start. I do not think pedal steel players should get any more than anyone else. In fact, if you think about it, steel players usually play less on a track than most other instruments. Drums, bass, rhythm guitar, keyboards usually play through the whole song, steel is mostly (but not always) sprinkled in select parts.
I say, "play because you love play, and hopefully you can make a living doing it."
Good luck,
Dave

[Chris LeDrew]

There's nothing stopping you from writing your own material. If you would like to receive royalties, starting composing your own songs and get a CD recorded. But you will not find a songwriter who is willing to invest all his time and energy into an album of his songs just to split the royalties with everyone who has touched the recording. If this was the case, the engineer should get a cut as well because he placed the mic in such a position that it changed the tone of the famous guitar part that made the song a hit.

Having said all this, there is a royalty in place now for studio side musicians, called "Neighbouring Rights". If you have played on songs that have received airplay, you are eligible for a small royalty that's based on the amount of airplay. This royalty is a result of the long-standing protests of musicians that were frustrated by the same things you are. Check with your union office for more info. THe AFM here in Canada keeps track of radio singles, and they match this list up with lists of albums and singles submitted by session musicians. You have to claim involvement by filling out a form that lists your sessions and pertinent singles. I know a guy that sang backup on Bon Jovi's "Living on a Prayer" who has been paid very well, through Neighbouring Rights, for his services.

A lot of times, the royalties for stuff on which you play will not generate enough royalties to get you a six-pack of beer. If royalties are important to you, maybe you can work a deal on a small percentage of royalties in trade for doing the session for free. Often you'll make far more by taking the session payment. Roger got it right with his post; no risk, no dividend.

[chas smith R.I.P.]

i view a song from the standpoint that everyone involved in it made it happen. it is pretty messed up that someone who plays a really sweet part, regardless of instrument, weight, years played on the instrument, whether or not they can read music... can only get what amounts to a pittance for their work when you compare it to the big picture. are we no different than a roofer building a house?

There was a recent discussion, similar to this, in the "old section", where I talked about how I build art for several different artists and also, how I was involved in sessions where the composer was composing with players.

The art one is simply, historically, the artist made/makes art by pushing the paint around with a brush, or chipping away at a rock with a hammer. They are initiating an action and influencing something that creates an event that results in art.

Perhaps the artist hires a group of people to make something happen. By the same regard, he/she influences and initiates an action to make art. It's their art. Left to my own devices, I would never have made the things I've made for them.

By the same token, the composer hires a group of musicians that have skills he wants to work with. He then writes or instructs them to play in a certain way, and of course each one puts his "spin" on it. It's his composition.

" everyone involved in it made it happen."

The joy of ensembles.

i guess yeah i am saying these things because of the rarity of the steel in music today, in some sense. a lot of things in this world operate on supply and demand.

You could say the same thing about the accordion or the nose flute.

" are we no different than a roofer building a house? "

One of the most difficult things to get used to, in the entertainment business, is that we're disposable labor.

Don't get me started, .......cs

[Jim Cohen]

" are we no different than a roofer building a house? "

Well, let's say you sold your house at a nice, fat profit of $100,000 after living in it for 10 years. During those 10 years, you've had the roof done, the driveway repaved, the electrical circuits upgraded, walls repainted and a new bathroom added.

As you leave the closing of the sale of your house with a nice, fat bank check for your $100,000 profit, lo and behold! you find the roofer, plumber, electrician, carpenter, painter, and even the freakin' driveway paver all standing in a line with their hands out, expecting you to give them each a share of your profit. After all you've done quite nicely with the sale of your home, haven't you, and it surely would not have commanded such a handsome price without each of their efforts!

But wait! you say, echoing a line from Paul McCartney, "Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you paid on the day?"

So, the question is: should we be any different from the roofer building your house?

[b0b]

I get about the same as a live gig: ~ $100. To me it's the same amount of work. I've always known that playing music doesn't pay well. That's why I have a day job.

I don't get much recording work since I moved to Cloverdale, though. There are no studios here! Gotta drive to Santa Rosa, and I'm not real inclined to do that.

[Marc Friedland]

Chris,
I'm sending you an email.
Marc

[Roger Rettig]

Dave Ristrim said: 'Play because you love it, and hope to earn some money doing it' (or words to that effect).

I agree - and that's what I've always done.

I was quite busy in the studios around London from the late-1970s until I left for the New World in 1997, and I admit that I was never really comfortable in that existence. It was either sheer boredom (90%) or sheer terror (5%), and occasionally deeply fulfilling (the other 5%).

The 'sheer terror', by the way, was when I got handed something I couldn't read, and there were twenty other guys in the room who could!!!

Most of the boredom was those calls where the producer had never seen a steel up close, and was captivated by its scope. I swear this is true - I once had one of them play me the track so I could get in tune, and that's the 'take' that they wanted to keep!!! (Buddy Emmons tuning up I can listen to; me? NO!)

I admire entrepreneurs, because I'm devoid of that sort of imagination. Tell me where to sit, what tune to play on, and I'll come up with something nice for you but, left to my own devices, I'd be sitting at home wondering what to do with all these guitars and amps ....

I make my living now playing theater shows, and nothing pleases me more than seeing a 'full house' (and the Producer driving home in his Lexus!); it probably means another call for me sometime in the not-too-distant future. It's never occurred to me to put a show on myself, 'cause I'm too busy getting my handicap down !!!!

RR

[Edward Meisse]

Why should we be any different? I'm a commercial driver by day. Most people think of that as not requiring much skill. But somehow I make better time and have fewer mishaps than the younger, less experienced guys for reasons I don't really understand. Everybody develops skill at what they do over time. And whether we like it or whether we don't supply and demand effects everybody.

[Corky Anderson]

I have been working for three different studio's here in Edmonton since 1992, and I have never felt I was being short changed on pay. When I get a session call now we don't even discuss money because these guy's pay me very well. If I get a call for just one tune though, I charge a flat rate of $100.00......but I do my darndest to give them $1000.00 worth of steel! I guess the bottom line here is work hard at your craft, give them a little more than they would expect, and you won't ever be out of work!



Emmons D-10 Nashville 1000/400 Lexicon MPX 200

[Kevin Mincke]

Dang it! I'm movin' to Cloverdale......hope my day job doesn't follow me

[Dave Harmonson]

I found out how to make a million dollars playing steel guitar. Just start with two million and soon you'll have a million dollars.

[Edward Meisse]

The best I ever heard along those lines was about the musician who won the lottery. When asked what he was going to do now that he had won the lotery he said, "I guess I'll just keep playin till the money runs out."

[Jim Sliff]

are we no different than a roofer building a house?

Ah - you hit the figurative nail on the head!

That's *exactly* what you/we are in the studio.

You're offering a construction service for pay. When you leave, you don't get to share in the profits of selling the house.

A roofer...or landscaper...may consider his work "art" as well.

You're hired labor. If you want to be idealistic about the "art" aspect or the years of study involved or the rarity of the instrument, then studio work is the wrong gig for you. Start your own band, play your own music, take the profit (or loss) on your investment Play who you are.

On the other hand, if you want to be a studio musican - play who the leader is. The "general contractor" is gong to tell you what kind of roof he wants, and if you build it right your reward is 1) you get paid, and 2) you might work on his next project.

Residuals for studio work went away a LONG time ago. I know a couple guys who still get checks periodically from stuff they played on in the 70's....but those days are long gone.

Are you asking too much?

Yes.

[Mark van Allen]

Jim , that's a cracking good analogy! I'll remember that one.
All in all, a great reason to have things in writing before going into the studio (I mean as a "band member"), or an understanding about where you stand with other "band members".
A couple of scenarios I've personally been involved with:

I've played for more than scale on records that have never broken production cost. Many artists have been more than generous, and I'm grateful.

I've played for a reasonable fee on records that were wildly successful, and been very happy for their success. Sometimes I get another studio call... and sometimes better pay.

Some of the folks I play with pay me out-of-pocket for T.V. and other airplay performances I know they make little or nothing for. I'm very grateful.

People who ask for "bargain discount" studio/gig time in exchange for "future gigs and great things" never get anything going. Anywhere. Ever.

I was playing with an up-and-comer who on entering one of the larger Country talent contests asked if I'd play the various levels for set pay, and a $750 bonus if we won the nationals. I agreed, and when we did win and he walked with over $25 Grand, I didn't ask or expect any more than the $750 I got.

For the same artist, I played for gas money on a band-produced album, with a handshake agreement that we would all participate if the album "went anywhere". Several years later, when he had a Major Label artist deal, his label released the record with no credits as "produced by the artist". Eventually all of the players involved signed onto a class action suit against the label (to collect the master session fees), and after the lawyers cleaned up, I had a a nice new B-Bender Tele. And another major label credit.

One of the bands I played with for years got a nice development package with a major and a heavyweight producer. The songs were written by the singer, but produced, arranged, etc. by the rest of the band. Literally at the signing party, the singer declared he wanted a solo artist deal, and not a band deal. The producer and label freaked out, and dropped the whole thing. Singer had a solo deal with a different label within days, and has had a long career. The guys in the band, several of whom were his childhood friends, don't talk to him much.

One of my regular studio clients can sing, and write (sort of), but needs and expects me to come up with key, style, meter, arrangements, and all instrumentation for his recordings. I admit to not seeing much income potential in the material, but several of "our" productions have landed him some very lucrative cartoon network deals. He's said he'll "take care of me" one of these days, but I expect it'll just be in the form of repeat studio work unless I press for a "new understanding".

One of the bands I was in for some time had a contracted agreement on performance, merchandise, and and recording percentages. The leader stuck to the performance allocations, but "never could manage to keep track of" merchandise sales, and no one else saw a dime of thousands of dollars of merch sales. He also posted live and studio recordings of the band on internet sites that generated tens of thousands of dollars in download fees, which he kept. Apparently he didn't see that as being related to our contracted agreement. A lawsuit here would be a nasty complicated thing. And sad.

Another band I was in went on to what looks like mega-stardom, partly based on the strength of songs the original five members had all contracted to an equal 20% share in, which ended up on the first Major release. After divesting themselves of the original members, and some legal wrassling, the ousted "partners" found their songwriting percentages had been trimmed to 2%. They sued, and I don't blame them.

I have quite a few more war stories, but these should illustrate my points:

• Different scenarios call for different assesments.
• I play for a living, where I try to honestly complete the work I'm asked for to the best of my ability, and expect to be dealt with fairly and honestly in return.
• If I agree to something pay-wise, and don't make a stipulation about percentage involvement, I'm happy with the original payment and expect nothing more.
• Any long-term performance project, or any recording involving group participation, should have clearly delineated payment and contribution parameters. Things like "who owns the band name" and "what happens when someone quits/gets fired" have ended up huge cans of worms for many.
• People can and will do amazing things when it comes to money and or "fame".
• Sadly, although some people demonstrate strong moral fibre, you can expect some of your best friends to turn on you if they can keep a bigger chunk.
• Contributing a "signature lick" to a project may be a completely different thing in a work-for-hire session than in a band scenario.

[John Steele (deceased)]

My apologies to anyone who feels it's crass to attach a dollar figure to anything. There's an uneasy feeling on the forum directed at anything requiring a straight forward answer, I understand that. And everyone comes from a different place.
Perhaps somewhere on this forum is the cat that first played the riff for "pretty woman", and to him, you have my profound respect. I'm not one of those guys.
And, for the record, I figure they prolly paid me more than I was worth.
-John

[sonbone]

I've played on dozens of CD projects that lost money....luckily, I never had to give any of my session money back