Sho-Bud Baldwin Cross-Over Double-10's

Bernie Gonyea · Post by **Bernie Gonyea** » 16 Jan 2007 6:32 pm

Hello Guitar Pro's: Have recently purchased a D-10 Crossover model of a Baldwin Sho-Bud Steel. Would you tell me the pros & conns of owning such an instrument. A late 60's guitar; appears to be in decent shape.. Thanks for the help..Bernie

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 16 Jan 2007 8:07 pm

As appetizing as fish flavored ice cream! Remember the Edsel? Pinto? Mustang II? Vega? The Brewster Bufflo?

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 16 Jan 2007 10:25 pm

So Bobbe what are you saying?

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 17 Jan 2007 4:56 am

I think he must mean he'd just as soon eat a crossover as he'd eat fish flavored ice cream.

Remember the Alamo? Or should that be a la mode?

Robert Parent · Post by **Robert Parent** » 17 Jan 2007 5:29 am

I have never owned a cross-over model but have played a few FWIW. I thought the pedal system was clunky and difficult to keep in tune. The guitars were heavy to carry. The positive thing is that they sounded very good, much better than any of the later model Sho Buds that I owned.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 17 Jan 2007 5:49 am

Robert P., I agree.

Robert S.

Les Green · Post by **Les Green** » 17 Jan 2007 6:34 am

I bought one new back in the late 60's. Beautiful laquer birds-eye
maple, great sound, but it was impossible to keep in tune. Also the under-carriage was so bad it would actually chew the pull rods into where they went through all those little thingies with the holes in them. I forget the exact procedure for this happening but if you flipped the cross-over lever while you had your foot on a pedal (I think) the whole mess underneath came loose. I kept it for less than a year and then traded it off for a new MSA. Have never regretted that move. I bought it because it looked so dang purty. A big mistake!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 17 Jan 2007 6:54 am

If you search here and on the old Forum you will find a number of discussions of the Sho-Bud Baldwin crossover. As stated above, the cons were that it wouldn't stay in tune and it weighed a ton with that iron frame. The pros are that it is a big beautiful piece of wood, and the tone is good. Some have said it stays in tune if you don't use the crossover switch. So they tune everything for E9, and play C6 like a lap steel with no pedals.

Some have had the entire undercarriage converted to a modern non-crossover all-pull, including removing the iron frame. But that will cost you more than you paid for it. It is a poor guitar for a beginner to be saddled with, although some people are happy with it if they just keep it at home and don't use the crossover switch.

Larry Phleger · Post by **Larry Phleger** » 17 Jan 2007 9:37 am

I seem to remember Bobbe Seymour once selling one for a dollar a pound. I once owned one It was a brute to carry, sounded good, but wouldn’t stay in tune for love nor money. I’ve heard that someone will upgrade the changer system to a more modern setup. Don’t have any idea of the cost of such a conversion.

Andy DePaule · Post by **Andy DePaule** » 17 Jan 2007 11:01 am

I had a Sho-Bud Crossover that I bought about 1978.
Got it at a shop in San Carlos, California that some of you will remember.
There was great tone and the cabinet was some of the best birds eye maple ever.
Drawback was that the system was far from good.
There was way too much pedal play on both the front and back neck.
Next issue is there is not a lot of good reasons to have an E9th neck with 6 pedals and just one knee lever.

I ended up changing mine and adding knee levers. I think I got it up to 3, but maybe it was 4 knee levers. I don't remember now???
Set it so the first two pedals worked the E9th neck, and the other 4 worked the C6th neck.
That allowed me to get the pedal action tightened up and the guitar became more playable.
I sort of got the third E9th pedal by RKR taking high E string to F#. Works there but hard to do fast on/off licks.

That was a heavy guitar. Do not remember when, where or to who I sold it.

Should remember that this was the same guitar played by Ernie Hagar and Pete Drake and they seemed to do alright with it.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 17 Jan 2007 5:48 pm

I love my Crossovers. They stay in tune unless you move them around a lot. Playing in the basement for my own amusement I rarely have to retune very much, and the pedals stay in tune, too. But I wouldn't take one on road. The basic idea of having all the pedals and levers working on both necks should have become standard by now, but it was abandoned before they sorted out all the bugs. I can understand why someone would use the pedals on E9 and not C6, in fact I tend to do that myself. When you adjust the pedals you're simultaneously adjusting the travel, for instance, on both necks, so you can put out the tuning on the E9 neck while tuning the C6, and vice-versa.

That said, I intend to keep my Crossovers for ever.....

(check out the photo on the left !)

Don Olson · Post by **Don Olson** » 17 Jan 2007 6:44 pm

I had one in 1969, good looking and good tone couldn't keep it in tune.I finally broke in to a guys garage and left it
Don

Bernie Gonyea · Post by **Bernie Gonyea** » 17 Jan 2007 7:18 pm

Thanks for all your honest comments on the crossover models; I am strictly a home grown steel player now; turned Seventy Two Years Young today. But, I went and did it; had a LDG Model, back some time ago, and Ditto; it was the biggest piece of junk that anyone could have owned. Bought it brand new and never had the chance to play it for a full 4 hour gig. Took it to some of the best steel guitarists, in our area, and back to the dealer, near Boston; whom couldn't figure out the problem, with the help of his buddies. Now, I'll sit back in my music room, and do just as a few of you have suggested. Don't use the " CROSSOVER" Mechanizisms. But I do enjoy Beautiful guitars, as Bobbe enjoys his beauties.. I've been called stupid before.. Thanks, men..Bernie

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 18 Jan 2007 7:43 am

If you want a GOOD crossover guitar, just ask b0b, he plays a Williams.

Bill Rudolph has a patent on his crossover mechanism and I understand it is faultless.

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 18 Jan 2007 8:34 am

Bernie,

My first pedal steel was a new Sho-Bud crossover model bought from the Sho-Bud factory in 1969. It was the first universal guitar (you can easily change the tunings and pedals - more easily than the current guitars), and came standard with 14 pedal changes (6 floor plus one knee lever X 2). The design allowed for many raises and lowers on each string. This guitar was the perfect answer to us steel players who were just changing into the pedal steels and had not developed a personal tuning and pedal setup. (The E9th chromatic had NOT become the standard then as it is now.)

The cons, compared to the pedal steels of today (almost 40 yeares later), are it is over-engineered (heavy), is hard to keep in tune and the cross-over mechanism, along with the pedal travel and tuning barrels need to be carefully adjusted(and maintained). If you happened to be a mechanically declined person, then this guitar may be too much to handle.

It is still a great guitar and a piece of pedal steel history. Enjoy.

Thanx,
Jim

Bernie Gonyea · Post by **Bernie Gonyea** » 18 Jan 2007 6:20 pm

Erv & Jim Bates: Thanks so much for your comments and encouragement; All the ones which came thru yesterday had me really discouraged, but now I am prompted to do what-ever it takes to find some use for my new purchase. I have a son whom is very mechanically inclined; he will tackle any thing which moves. I don't give up easily; Sure; we all make mistakes in life; but I have to have the energy to strive on ahead, whether it be in my musical endeavors and proceeding on, whether it be in re-building an old Multi-Kord or fiddling around with an oldie Sho_Bud Crossover. During my 54 years of actively playing country music; I've owned at least 8 or 9 guitars; pedal, dobro, lap, or other-wise, and not one of these instruments have owed me a nickel. Now, I am able to buy myself a gift for my Seventy Second Birthday and I am proud of that fact; regardless if I will ever sit behind it and produce some fine sounds of a Pedal Guitar. But, I'll die trying.
I appreciate all your input to the PROS and CONS, which I requested at the start of this POSTING. I am also proud to be a member of the Steel Guitar Forum. Wish it had been around 50 years ago. Again, THANKS..Bernie

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 18 Jan 2007 9:09 pm

Bernie,

Congratulations -- and Happy Birthday! I predict you're going to love your new Sho Bud. More than anything else, what I've picked up from this thread is that you've got a GREAT SOUNDING guitar.

Larry Phleger · Post by **Larry Phleger** » 19 Jan 2007 5:41 am

It really may be worth your while to check and see who it was that upgraded their crossover to a modern all-pull system. That would give you a functional god sounding guitar.

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 19 Jan 2007 3:41 pm

Since I have never seen the modern all-pull mods that some have done to a crossover, I doubt that you would have the easy to change universal and multi (more than 3) changes per string you have now. Plus the mod will probably involve a lot of altering of the guitar structure, where you can't back out.

If someone could show some pics of before and after mods to a Sho-Bud crossover, it would be helpful.

Thanx,
Jim

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 19 Jan 2007 4:19 pm

Seymour ain't lyin' about the mechanics, like a dead mullet that was layin' on the beach for 6 days in the sun. It's worse than crabs on your organ.
I did find out one thing about one that was good.
I put a double pull on it that no other guitar I have seen will do till this day, it was in the changer and I am still wanting that from a new guitar (Cain't Tell, signature lick). Any other guitar would have had the changer fingers flip over on it.
That was as good as it got for that guitar.
The tone was like a Stratavarius, I ain't no fiddle player so I cain't spell that word.

Colby

Colby Tipton · Post by **Colby Tipton** » 19 Jan 2007 6:07 pm

Bernie,
Dont let us get you dowm with our comments. We have all been in your shoes. We have all had sore feet before.
That is just to help you, I hope this is the case with anyone you get a comment from. Plug on, youll get it.

Colby

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 20 Jan 2007 6:47 am

Bernie,
My first guitar was a 1967-68 Sho-Bud cross-over, distributed by Baldwin. I stilll own it and love it. I've owned many of these guitars. They can be contrary and they are heavy,but the fun of playing a vintage cross-over and hearing the rich Sho-Bud tone is worth it's weight!
You obviously will find varied opinions on the cross-over. I think they are great and play mine often.
You did good!

Bernie Gonyea · Post by **Bernie Gonyea** » 20 Jan 2007 5:54 pm

Men, I'm more determined now, than ever to hang onto my newest purchase.. It's not as purdy as Andy's new Star, but I know I'm going to love it. A special thanks to Al T. for wishing me a Happy Birthday ; and a million thanks to you all for your comments and well wishes.I'm taking Colby's warmest advice," " Plug On, You'll Get It ". And Tommy, check you Mail Box..Bernie

Ron Elliott · Post by **Ron Elliott** » 22 Jan 2007 6:21 am

I had one of the Crossover models(didn't want to use the word Sho-Bud) .When the wind started blowing, it would keep our house-boat from moving about in deep water. It was really a great anchor. Sorry 'bout that. I never say anything bad about products,..but once in a while....something will come along. Ron

Andy DePaule · Post by **Andy DePaule** » 22 Jan 2007 7:00 am

I hope I didn't give the wrong impression, but I liked my cross over even with it's problems.
Looked and sounded great.
Was the only time I ever had a D-10.

I did use most of the exhisting parts to change it to a non cross over model with an extra pedal so it ended up with 5 C6 pedals and 2 E9 pedals.
I also made knee levers so it had 3 or 4 of those to.
After that I liked it a lot and got rid of most of the problems.

The really great thing about that older tuning barrel system was the ease of changing the tuning and no limit on how many raise & lower on any string.

Not perfect, but they are one of the great guitars in the PSG history.

The Steel Guitar Forum

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Sho-Bud Baldwin Cross-Over Double-10's

I had a Sho-Bud Crossover

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