Learning on a universal.

[Robert Murphy]

Just curious, I play lap steel and had a chance to buy a 12 string universal. Would anyone recommend starting out on an E9/B6?

[Al Marcus]

Robert-Sure , why not??...al.

[David Doggett]

The answers you get on this will depend almost entirely on where the player is coming from. Most universal players will tell you it is possible to learn pedal steel on a universal, although some might not advise starting out that way. The vast majority of S10 and D10 players will tell you to start on S10 or D10. Of course most of them will advise you not only to start on S10 or D10, but to stay there.

Basically it boils down to whether you think you should always start simple and work up, or whether you think you can start with a complete instrument. If you were going to learn piano, should you start with a two octave keyboard, or a full 88 key piano? Should you start with a 4-string guitar (don't see many of those these days, but in the past lots of people learned on one), or start on a 6-string? It's the same question and same answer. I started on lap steel and Dobro, and moved to S10 E9, then ext. E9 S12, then ended up on S12U. Sometimes I wish I had gone from lap to an 8-string pedal steel. The older pros all went through an 8-string pedal steel phase. That taught them to have beautiful moving harmony going up and down the neck. The "chromatic" strings of 10-string can be a sort of crutch that allow you to stay in one position without moving around enough. But in the end it is all just technique. You can practice moving around the neck just as well on a 10-string as an 8-string. Now that I know my way around on a uni, I am sure I could teach a beginner to play one with no problems.

The disadvantages are:
There is too much there to learn all at once. You will need a good teacher or good instruction material (I recommend Jeff Newman's uni stuff) to cut through the complexity and focus you on the simple stuff you need to start with. The same can be said for S10 and D10, but there are lots of teachers and lots of instruction material for 10-string. If you have to teach yourself (the way I did), maybe you are better off starting with an S10 and some good instruction material. You can apply 10-string E9 and C6 instruction material to a uni, but you have to do a little adapting of the instructions. If you are an experienced musician and know some basic theory, you can do that. Otherwise, it is just another complication added to an already complicated process.

The advantages are:
From the very beginning, you can dabble with the various aspects of the tuning (E9 mode, B6 mode, one-big-tuning mode, extra low strings, low power chords for rock and blues, etc.), and so from the start follow your musical inclinations unfettered by any limitations of the instrument. If any of that stuff interests you more than traditional country or Western swing, then get a uni and have at it. You will be a leg up, and the path to your future does not require trading up to a uni later and having to learn from scratch the unique possibilities of a uni.

Beyond the above advantages and disadvantages, all the rest of the arguments pro and con will mostly just be arguments of uni vs. S10/D10, and will apply to intermediate and advanced players as well as beginners. There are plenty of threads from the past on that, and you probably don’t want to see this thread turn into one of those.

But there is one other issue worth discussing. There are many longtime S10/D10 players who have tried to switch to a uni, and gave up because they couldn’t retrain for the slightly different grips (mostly having to do with the D string on E9) and extra strings. For that very reason, the best pedal steeler of all time, Buddy Emmons, once said that if he were starting today (actually that was decades ago) he might start on a uni. So if you think you want to end up on a uni, then it might be a very good idea to start on one. On the other hand, there are a few players who have spent some serious time on a uni, then decided they would rather play D10, and felt their time on uni was a hindrance (Bob Hoffman may chime in on this). I think it might be just as easy, maybe easier, to start on a uni, and then move on to D10, if you later decide you want to emulate the heroes of D10.

For full disclosure, I like a uni because of the types of music I want to play, the compactness, the completeness of the single tuning, and the challenge of the unknown potential. I guess my bottom line for your question is that I think I could easily teach someone to start on a uni. But if you don’t have a uni teacher, and have to wing it yourself, it is more of a challenge than starting on a 10-string. An experienced guitar and lap player with some theory background could do it. But a complete novice might have too much on his plate.

[Chris LeDrew]

Robert, one of my first pedal steels was a Universal. I really enjoyed it. I eventually went back to 10 string E9 because I convinced myself I should, but looking back I realize that was not necessary. I was getting some cool sounds with that guitar, and should have kept it.

If you get the guitar, I strongly recommend Jeff Newman's E9/B6 course on CD/Tab. It is a lot of fun, and will kick-start you into the Universal tuning. I used that course, and later applied it to C6 when I got a D-10. Good luck!

[Jody Sanders]

Check with Maurice Anderson on the virtues of the universal . He is the world authority on the universl tunimg. Jody.

[Gil Berry]

Well, I am certainly no authority, but I always looked at it this way... with the universal, you can play the c6th or e9th stuff without carrying around the extra weight of a d10. You also have the advantage of some lower bass strings (kinda like ext e9) when playing e9th. The only difference is learning to get that d note with a knee lever instead of having it there without pedals -- but I usually hit it several times a night by accident when playing a d10 anyway -- and that's a real no-no. So if there's a lot to learn, so what. Take it a little at a time. Start with ABC pedals, E raise/lower knees and one knee to get that d note. worry about the rest of the stuff when you're comfortable. The guitar will be there waiting for you to catch up; you won't have to worry about outgrowing it's potential. Frankly, I've never understood players who backed down to a s10 3+4 or an ext e9th from a uni. If you don't use it, it doesn't hurt to have it there for "someday"...

[Jerry Hayes R.I.P.]

Robert, I'd go ahead and get the UNI for sure. I can't imagine trying to play everything on a 10 string steel. Sure you can do it, but just think, your lowest note would be the same as the 5th string on the second fret on a standard guitar. There's a lot more world out there. If you play guitar already, you'll find the 12 string more user friendly to stuff you already know............JH in Va.

[Robert Murphy]

Thanks for the knowledgable advise. Why not?

[Larry Lorows]

Robert, I've been a U12 player for 30 years and have never regretted it. I've tried D10's but just don't like the feel of them. You'll be starting out on E9 most of the time, but when you are ready for the C6, it will be there for you. I play mostly C6 now a days. Any of the C6 courses available can be applied to your guitar as well. Jeff Newmans's course was the one that helped me the most at the beginning.
Dave, I think you're right on the money. very good answer. Larry

[Colby Tipton]

Yes.

Colby

[Gary Shepherd]

You'll find so much new stuff to play by adding the pedals and levers on an E9th pedal steel, I don't see any reason to start with a universal. Of course, if you can get it for a good price, then why not. You could always take off a couple of strings if it's too much. And just because an extra pedal or lever is there doesn't mean you have to use it. Still, the universal tuning is A LOT to learn all at once.

[Roland Buras]

Robert, I started out on a GFI 10 E9th in 97, I learned real fast. however, i did not want to go to a double neck and learn another complete guitar. I ordered an Excel SD12 8x5 on Nov. 10 2002 and recieved it Dec 20 2002 i took it out the first week end and fell in love with the 12 uni. Now i have three guitars in one. and gradually learning them all. you will never regret owning or starting on a uni.

R J Buras
Mississippi Gulf Coast

[John De Maille]

Robert,
30 yrs ago, I started on an S-10 steel, and it was a little intimidating to me then. But, I mastered the basic sounds from using no pedals to using the A,B, and C pedals and one knee lever. I furthured my knowledge and upgraded to an S-11 with 5 pedals and 4 knees. Much more fun ! Three years ago I bought a U-12 with 7 pedals and 5 knees. I wish now, that, I had started on a U-12, but, I had very little comprehension of the instrument and no one to talk to about it. I've found that the U-12 is a very versatile steel. You can play so many different styles with just one neck. If you want to stick to basic country, strings 8 to 1 are the same as a 10 string. If you want to add a nice selective bottom or 6 string guitar rhythmn or chords, strings 8 to 11 fit the bill nicely. The best part comes now- when you flatten the 4th and 8th strings, you now have the full fat chords and low notes for jazz or western swing. Great stuff ! When you become more knowledgeable about the tuning, you'll see how great the advantage is having it all on one neck. You can trade back and forth quite effortlessly, in fact, seamlessly. I say, go for it and buy the 12 string. I don't think you'll be sorry. Jeff Newman had a good course on the basics of E-9th - B-6th. I highly reccommend it. It'll get you started in the right direction.

[Dave Mudgett]

Even though my go-to guitars are universal right now and I like the approach, there are certainly arguments for preferring a doubleneck instrument. Do a search on the old forum for something like universal d-10 and you'll find lots of opinions. Paul Franklin makes a strong pro-doubleneck argument here:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... 0&start=50

If we were talking about a D-11/10 or D12/10, where the 11- or 12-string neck is an extended E9 which gives the low E that's missing on the 10-string E9, I would have a harder time arguing against the merits of this argument. But I sometimes find that missing low E-string problematic, probably because I'm a guitar player and I just expect those lower notes to be there. Still, I really do find the E9 9th string D useful, along with its associated D->C# lower.

It may sound strange, but I find the universal a good guitar to learn on. The 9th string D can be pesky to a beginner, and I think that the universal approach helps me see the relationship between the E9 and 6th necks in a logical and concrete way. It seems to me that most of that understanding should transfer to standard D-10, and in fact, I have a D-10 Legrande that I work on at home.

I also think it matters what you're trying to play. The playing of guys like Reece Anderson, Jeff Newman, and Joe Wright certainly make a strong case for the universal approach.

There are always tradeoffs in any setup. If I get a guitar made, I may well try to get a D-12/10 to give an Ext. E9/C6. That may be my ultimate guitar. But right now, the universal works OK for what I'm trying to do. The Carter U12 is also very light and compact for gigs, and does sound very good. All my opinions, of course.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

I learned on a universal.

[Bob Hoffnar]

Since you live in Maryland I would suggest getting yourself to Buddy Charleton down at Billy Cooper's shop. If you do what he says you will be a real steel player as soon as possible. Mike Auldridge is a great teacher right in Silver Springs also.

Try stuff out in person with somebody who knows what they are doing if possible.

[graham rodger]

I'm learning on a universal,and moving along quite nicely,go for it Robert

[Scott Howard]

I have 2 12 stings at the moment . I got used to the Universal tuning several years ago. The tab is not hard to get used to. I have had a couple of 10 sting steels and I just move the B up to # 9 and add a low E . I like to pull into the D from B or drop to the D from the E,I have both. I see no disadvantage to starting on a U-12 and as stated above if it is a good deal and you want 10 string ,remove 2 strings and adjust the A pedal bellcrank to be on the 10 th string. It should take a few minutes .

[Mike Wheeler]

I, too, cut my teeth on a U12. After playing it for 7 years, I gave in to the opinions of others who said the Uni was not the right guitar for country. So, I traded it for a Sho-Bud Super Pro D-10....big mistake. It sounded great, but it just didn't have the low end "ba!!s". After a few months, I went back to a Uni and haven't looked back since.

If all you're looking for is great tone, then any copedent can float your boat for sure. But if you're looking for the ability to seemlessly flow into a C6th style any time you choose, or use some complex chord structures, then a U12 is for you.

The fact of the matter is that....if you decide you don't like a Uni tuning, drop the lower 2 strings, adjust the copedent, and you have a regular 10 string guitar. Or, you could easily change it into a 12 string extended E9th tuning. The options are limited to your imagination. So, I'd advise the U12.

[Frank Welsh]

Having had prior experience on single neck E9th pedal steels as well as with multiple tunings on non-pedal associated with Hawaiian style, I found the U-12 to easily accomodate all of these sounds. My background as a six-string standard guitar player came in very handy in finding those jazz chords on the universal since I have no instructional material specific to the U-12.

In addition to the extended E9th sounds, the standard C6th (B6th) is available as well as full versions of useful Hawaiian tunings: A6, B6(only one half step down from the very popular C6), E7, C#minor 7, and a useful section of the B11th tuning (pedals A & B and knee lever lowering the usual two E's).

One of the biggest advantages is the seamless integration of the E9th with the B6th which has already been mentioned.
I find that I use the "E9th portion" of the tuning in many jazz standards in ways that do not sound "country" at all. The universal, to me, makes the steel guitar just "another instrument" that can play nearly anything, sort of like a piano, and not trapped musically in either country or western swing.

Your perception of the Universal as having "two" tunings gradually fades and you will "see" only one (albeit rather large) tuning.

I'm sure a D-10 can be approached with a similar "seamless" philosophy, but to me, the U-12 strongly encourages this more "universal" approach to one's playing and in my case, required it for arranging really full chord-melody arrangements of all sorts of tunes not normally associated with steel guitar.

Go for it and take your time.

[David Doggett]

One piece of advice - for reasons that bewilder me, many universals come without any E9 changes on the lowest strings. I guess this comes from former D10 players who simply want to duplicate their former E9 playing on the top strings and C6 playing on the bottom strings. For my way of thinking, you need the A and B pedal changes and the F lever changes on the bottom strings. Otherwise you are missing half the fun. If you get one of these minimal universals, get the parts right away and add the changes to the bottom strings.

[Robert Murphy]

Thanks again for the excellant responces. I love guitars of all kinds and a broad selection of music too. The pedal steel is a challenge that calls to me and with support like this I can approach it with confidence.

[Jerry Hayes R.I.P.]

I went to a 12 string ShoBud from a Fender 1000 in the seventies and played extended E9 for a couple of years until I started adding pedals and playing the universal tuning. I played that for a long time until about 3 years ago I heard about some C6th players who'd been dropping the low C note on their C6th and adding a D note between the E and C strings in position 7. I thought that it could work on a Uni so I dropped the low B and moved strings 9, 10, and 11 down to 10, 11, & 12. Then I added a C# string to position 9 with a knee lever raise to D on that string. This way I have the good old "D" string right where it's supposed to be in the 9th slot. This has really helped my soloing in the lower registers a lot and doing rock stuff I get some nice unison things by using the A pedal along with the 9th string. Basically it's an extended E9 with strings 2 and 9 tuned to C#. It really works for me and I've never felt more comfortable with a setup in my life than this one and I think my playing's improved because of it. There are a couple of speed picking single note passages that I learned on E9 that I now have 2 more positions to do them with the same fingering!...........JH in Va.

[John Daugherty]

I say, YES, get that uni and get the Jeff Newman video for E9/B6, available from Jeffran Music. Watch the video and you will quickly learn the benefits of playing a 12 string universal.
I played a double neck for many years before playing a U-12. I wouldn't switch back.
Now, there may be some other good videos available. Jeffs video is the only one I have seen. I know it is good. You may check with Joe Wright to see what he has. Joe is an outstanding U-12 player ...and teacher.

[Ernie Pollock]

I don't see why that could not happen, if you look at the courses available, you just have to play the C6th stuff on another fret, thats all. I learned just about everything I know on C6th from Herby Wallace [mostly just his great inspiration] and that was on a S-12 Kline Universal [wish I still had it] but I ventured over to the D-10's and had no problems after a few days of getting used to that. Get that Universal, you will do just fine with it. Just remember, you have to get the 9th string 'D' note with a lever when you need it. I use a similar thing on my E9th neck anyhow, and its a 10 string, with a low 'E' note and the normal 10 string B moved to the 9th string slot. Its a mental thing, thats all.

Sign me 'Played em all'

Ernie Pollock