Steel Guitar in Schools?

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 25 Nov 2006 7:49 pm

Hawaii is very proud of it's tradition. I wonder if there isn't a school in the Islands that has a Hawaiian Steel in it?

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 25 Nov 2006 9:11 pm

Duane, I agree with you 100%. Music, like acting, drawing, etc... is a craft. Anybody who wants to do it seriously needs to study with the best teacher they can find, as early in life as they can...

Self-motivation is not to be confused with being self-taught...

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 25 Nov 2006 9:25 pm

Good point Stephan. Self-motivation is a must no matter what the approach.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 25 Nov 2006 9:33 pm

Matt,

Who is ""WE"? "Kids learning steel" would benefit forumites by furthering what bOb
states is one of the primary purposes of the forum: that steelers "share their
knowledge." The more kids who learn, the more sharing of knowledge there will be.

Some here also benefit by buying and selling instructional materials, and if more kids took up steel, more instructional material would be produced and sold. Likewise, people who sell CDs, guitars, etc. would benefit. Some people even benefit by sharing information about where to buy art or get foreign language lessons.

Do you mean "WE" as America? Since some countries lead others in the education race, those who are wiping up the rear would do well to see what the leaders are doing. Did the French Steel Guitar Forum's discussion of steel in the public schools focus on how to minimize it in the public schools? Or to minimize it in both private and public? Did they favor less "formal" education, whether public, private, group, or one-on-one? Did they wonder if kids learning steel would be a "benefit"? Do they try to teach music and art to jocks, or do they focus on people who can learn?

If you mean "WE" as the world, then the learning of music is a benefit in itself. For example, it's good that the Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association's mission is "the
promotion and perpetuation of traditional Hawaiian music." As part of that effort,
their definition of "WE" includes "a global network of players and lovers of
traditional Hawaiian music." Similarly, SGF benefits from the interaction of steelers
the world over.

Apparently your primary categories are "one-on-one" versus "formal education." What do
you mean by "formal education"? Do you mean systematic and programmatic with an
emphasis on theory? What do you mean by contrasting formal and "one-on-one"? Some
formal education is one-on-one, some isn't. Or does "formal education" mean "schooling." If so, some schooling is systematic, programmatic, and theoretical, and some isn't. Likewise, some schooling is one-on-one and some isn't. And by schooling, do you mean K-12, higher ed, or both? Some K-12 is one-on-one, and some isn't. Some K-12 is systematic, programmatic, and theoretical, and some isn't. Some higher ed is one-on-one and some isn't. Some higher ed is systematic, prgrammatic, and theoretical, and some isn't. And for all of those factors, do you mean private, or public, or both?

If "formal" means schooling and higher ed, then we could inquire of Henry Allen, a
steeler who taught at the University of Hawaii Maui. Or if "formal" means schooling
and K-12, we could inquire of Lorene Ruymar, a steeler who was a classroom teacher in Vancouver. Or if formal means both K-12 and higher ed, we could inquire of both. We could as them whether they want more schooling or less. If they want more, let's ask them if better funding would help make public schooling as good as private schooling. Let's also ask them if less one-on-one would help make private schooling as cheap as public schooling. Let's ask Loren what one-on-one lessons from Jerry Byrd cost and how that quality of instruction could be made available through schooling for people who can't afford one-on-one outside of schooling.

It would be good to find out if "formal music training" really does create "complaceny." If it does, would it be good to minimize complacency by minimizing formal training?

It would be good if we could compare and contrast the variables implicit in the terms above. It would be good to poll accomplished musicians who've had both formal and informal instruction to see which they think was of more benefit. It also be good to poll accomplished musicians who had schooling and who didn't to see which they think was of more benefit. But that would be quite a project, especially since you'd have to control for those who had one-on-one and those who didn't. You'd also have to define and quantify each category. So far all we have are overlapping categories: Schooling and formal versus one-on-one. Apples and oranges. You can't find the difference
between a Fuji and a Braeburn by comparing them to an orange.

You're right that most accomplished players here didn't learn steel through
schooling. That's because schooling in steel, as others here have been saying here, is rarely available. How many accomplished players would have turned down steel instruction in the schools even if it had been available without-one-on-one
instruction? It would be good to have evidence of what per cent of those who had the curse of schooling became accomplished, and what per cent of those who didn't became accomplished.

We probably all agree that you are right in saying that "a student should be worthy
enough to take on learning this instrument." Would a student not be taking on the learning of an instrument if he or she were introduced to it at a school?

We probably all agree that the learner's "determination and desire to learn the instrument" are the most important factor in learning not only steel but in learning anything. However, it's not the only factor. Almost as important is the quality of instruction. A teacher offering one-on-one to eight students is going to get a general result for the whole class, and particular results that vary with each student. The same instructor teaching a class of thirty (with no other variable) is going to get a general result for the whole class, and particular results that very with each student. Generally the class with one-on-one will do better.

How widespread is the "complaint among those in the guitar community that there's a real lack of originality and freshness among the newer, younger players"? I was under the impression that there is a complaint that it's harder and harder to make a living in music because the competition keeps stiffer. Or do musicians find it difficult not because there are more accomplished players but because there are less accomplished consumers, who don't know excrement from nourishment? Are there more people buying crap now but not more people who are accomplished?

If "too much schooling has produced a generation (or two) of 'cookie cutter' musicians that bring nothing new to the table," if the over-abundance of crap is the fault of schooling, then wouldn't a reduction in public schooling lower both taxes and crap production? Or would there be more self-taught crap producers and consumers? If "schooling" causes "some" of the "lack or originality and freshness," then what causes most of it? Are there any other factors besides schooling that have increased crap production?

Casey,
It's too bad if you can't afford private one-on-one instruction and can't get it
cheaper through public schooling. But T. S. hillbilly. We got ours.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 26 Nov 2006 8:08 am

Darryl, just to be clear:

I believe that school should have music programs. It is important to 1-expose the general population to the basics of musical culture, and 2-give the few students who agree actually motivated a chance to take it further.

I just don't know that the school can specifically support very specific instruments such as PSG. Maybe it's fine if a student learns the piano, and studies music theory at school -- then pursues the PSG on their own.

It may be that I'm lucky to live in the right area, but my kids' elementary school has several different music programs, inclluding an orchestra, and the kids can borrow flutes, sax, clarinets, violins for the year from the school district at practically no cost. The high scholl also has many music programs, including a regionaly active jazz band.

Again, I believe that if a kid wanted to bring a steel into the jazz band -- provided that he made the cut -- the school would really enjoy that.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 26 Nov 2006 8:16 am

I'd say that Stephan is right in saying that public schools probably can't support something as specific as steel guitar, but Darryl adresses something important by pointing out that "we" benefit from the forum itself through sharing knowledge, so why wouldn't we take an interest in seeing kids taking up steel? (Unless we didn't want anyone else to play - what good is that?)

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 26 Nov 2006 9:26 am

Stephan and Duane,

Yep, the money is probably the biggest problem. As a nation, Amrica has the money, but the money is going elsewhere.

It sure would be great if other schools welcomed steel and had possibilities for playing other than band and orchestra. I thought most schools had those additional opportunities. I'm really disappointed that (according to the few people I've been asking) most schools don't even have talent shows anymore. It used to be that some schols had not only talent shows, but musical clubs where you could play anything. Some even had music at the daily, weekly, or monthly assemblies.

So I thank you for the posts, and I'm still hoping we get more posts about Duane's question from around the country and the world.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 26 Nov 2006 9:38 am

We at the Ohio Steel Guitar Association have talked about talking to the music directors at some of the schools to see if they would let us bring a steel in and let everyone hear the steel guitar . Not that they would be interested in adding it to the brass and other instruments but to expose them to the steel . You never know what they may think ! Maybe some of the kids would like the sound and talk mom and dad into buying one for them . Who knows ? Gary .

Robert Leaman · Post by **Robert Leaman** » 26 Nov 2006 9:47 am

I started playing Hawaiian guitar because of an accident and a very lovely lady who tried valiantly to reach me classical guitar. In 1940, I took trombone lessons at my parent's urging. At least those lessons taught me to read music. In addition, I took classical guitar lessons because I wanted to learn guitar and I liked its sound. I paid for guitar lessons by cutting the classical guitar lady's grass. She made her living by teaching piano but she could make one cry when she played guitar.

During the summer of 1942, a car hit me and badly damaged my left hand. I almost lost ring and little fingers on that hand but because an old country doctor had nerve enough to sew them back, I have them yet today although there is little strength. That effectively ended guitar lessons. My guitar teacher told me that maybe I might want to try to play a Hawaiian guitar since all fingers aren't needed on the left hand. She didn't know much about a Hawaiian guitar but she showed me G-major high bass tuning and how to play Aloha Oe.

The next summer I cut grass for the summer in exchange for neighbor's Model 27 Dobro. An extension nut installed and I was on my way. In 1945, another's neighbor's son was drafted and my mother bought his Rickenbacker with its 5 tube cigar box amplifier.

Since I played trombone well enough to produce a recognizable tune, I played in the school band. The school's music teacher was a real gentleman who encouraged me even to play my Rickenbacker with the school band during practice sessions. Everyone liked it probably because it was something different. However, I never took the Rickenbacker to marching sessions.

After WW2 and still in high school, I played nearly every weekend in clubs and bars. I finished my engineering degree after a stint in the Navy but I played very little after that except for my own pastime.

I credit two teachers for giving encouragement with Hawaiian guitar, my lovely classical guitar teacher and my teacher at the public school.

Will steel guitar become something in school's music programs? I think not since majority of school music teachers have absolutely no idea what is a pedal steel guitar. There may be some that know of an instrument called a Hawaiian guitar but I seriously doubt that any school music teacher gives a thought or consideration to that as part of their musical programs.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 26 Nov 2006 10:12 am

Thanks, Gary. That's just the kind of original thinking by the people that can make a difference. Maybe personal connections would help. If a steeler knows a teacher, music director, or principal, then that might be an advantage.

In Columbus, do they have opportunities for kids to make music other than in band, orchestra, and choir? Do they have talent shows? Music in the cafeteria during lunch? During assemblies? It only has to be one song at the beginning of an assembly. Do they have high school dances where they can play?

I never thought I'd be the behind-the-times geezer who says "Back in my day...." But here goes. In the 60s during the folk music craze, we had a folk song club that met every week. Without being made to feel like a hillbilly, I could play the banjo stuff that I'd learned from Tiny Moore (who could hardly make a living because as an alum of the Texas Playboys, he was dismissed as a hillbilly). So I could do in school what was laughed at elsewhere. And kids from different chools got together for folk music jams called hootenannies. One of the kids who got his first taste of performing was Timothy B. Schmidt.

I think kids today should have a lot of opportunities to play any old weird instrument they want to play. But it takes time for teachers to organize and supervise such things, and they are already overburdened, so you'd have to hire more people. There's the money problem again.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen[This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 26 November 2006 at 10:14 AM.]

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 26 Nov 2006 10:19 am

Robert,
That high school teacher who let you sit in is just what we need. On the other hand, there are probably problems I don't know about that make it hard for teachers to do that these days.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 26 Nov 2006 11:01 am

I'm with Matt, and I'm a college teacher.

I get the impression that most of the accomplished players in and outside of this forum learned it on their own without the benefit (curse?) of a formal education. I would credit their determination and desire to learn the instrument more so than what they were "spoonfed" via a teacher....

Yep, that's where I'm at. Again, don't get me wrong - I'm all for kids learning, but I just don't see much going on in an awful lot of schools. I think the really motivated students would learn the things they want pretty much no matter what. The others just fake it, IMO.

Rather than bore you with a lot of windy arguments, my friend and colleague Larry Spence wrote an essay, "The Case Against Teaching", several years back for Change, a journal/magazine that you can read if you're interested in a different point of view. It's easy to find online, but there's one right here. The basic thesis is that time spent lecturing students and teaching to a test, to have students regurgitate memorized stuff on an exam, doesn't help students learn useful things well at all. Rather, he suggests that instructors should design "learning experiences", and place the responsibility for learning much more in students' hands. The difficulty with the typical lecture/assimilate model is that it's i. boring, ii. inflexible, iii. doesn't actively engage the student, and iv. students can't generally remember or use what they "learn". It's just too easy to use the lecture/assimilate model to squeeze the life out of a subject. We use the model of how youngsters learn language or serious musicians learn how to play a musical instrument to rethink how we teach things like math, system design, information systems, and the like. In general, I think this approach works better one-on-one, but we try to find ways to make this scale up to a classroom experience. Believe me, it's a challenge.

I agree that there is huge rigidity in the vast majority of elementary/secondary music programs I have seen. I don't think there's much chance of getting a steel guitar accepted as a "legitimate" musical instrument in most of them. But again, I don't see that as a problem. I think the issue holding the steel guitar back is general popular acceptance. All of this IMO, of course.

Edited for formatting only.[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 26 November 2006 at 11:02 AM.]

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 26 Nov 2006 11:19 am

Dave,

I'm with you on most of your points. I stated my agreement with the part you quoted from Matt. I don't see any big contradiction between what you and I are saying.

Matt, you, and I agree that kids who want to play steel can learn no matter what. But maybe this is the disagreement. It seems to me that you and Matt are saying this: Steel can be learned out of school, therefore it SHOULD be left out of school. If that's what you're saying, and if that principle applies to all musical instruments, then why have musical education at all? I know you don't want that, but does it logically follow from your statement?)If it doesn't apply to all instruments, then which ones does it not apply too and why?

Or are you saying this: Steel can be learned out of school, therefore it's possible to play it even though it can't be played in school. If so, then this follows: steel COULD be covered in school. If not, then this follows: Steel SHOULD not be covered in school.

By the way, what does "Edited for formatting only" mean? Did you type that? Or is there some way to edit for formatting quickly--without going through it laboriously line by line?

edited twice for content
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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

[This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 26 November 2006 at 06:23 PM.][This message was edited by Darryl Hattenhauer on 26 November 2006 at 06:25 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 26 Nov 2006 12:12 pm

Darryl - I wasn't disagreeing with you - only expanding on what Matt was saying, from my point of view.

I wrote "Edited for formatting only" because I edited only the way the text was formatted, but not any of the words. The the original paragraphs (written in html to shorten the link to Larry's paper) came out with extra spaces, so I closed it up. I generally only edit a post for formatting, spelling, or to fix errors in semantics. I try to indicate what I did so if someone has responded to my original post, it's clear to everyone what the original one said. I think it's important to distinguish how one edits a post, since a change in actual text can sometimes confuse the flow of discussion later in the thread.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 26 Nov 2006 12:13 pm

You can buy a brand new 6-string lap steel with legs from Musician's Friend for about $80. That's a whole lot cheaper than a viola or a cello, or all those brass instruments. I know it's not a Stringmaster or a Rains, but it's enough to spark interest if it's there. For the price they're not bad instruments, especially the recent ones with improved tuners. I carry one around in the trunk of the car in case of an unanticipated opportunity to play.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 26 Nov 2006 12:14 pm

Well, I just changed my last post before I saw the one by you right after it.

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 26 Nov 2006 12:15 pm

Alan,
Do you know if a kid could play that in the schools where you are?

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Alan Rudd · Post by **Alan Rudd** » 26 Nov 2006 8:01 pm

You guys know any steel builders who would donate some PSG's for my class? Most of the guitars we have were donated by Epiphone. I doubt we have the budget to buy 10 or 12 pedal steels. I actually have a former student that I was able to get interested in chicken pickin' style on the guitar and he now owns a Sho-Bud, but it was given to him. I've been trying to get with him to bounce a few ideas around and see where he is with it, but I'm sure one or two of these kids would get interested if exposed to the PSG. I wish I'd had the opportunity when I was a kid. If I'd gotten a steel when I wanted one, I'd be about 20 years ahead of where I am now. I guess I finally got my priorities right![This message was edited by Alan Rudd on 26 November 2006 at 08:05 PM.][This message was edited by Alan Rudd on 26 November 2006 at 08:07 PM.]

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 26 Nov 2006 8:30 pm

Alan,
Good question. If people donated them to your school, could they get a tax deduction?

Low end laps and S-10s might not be too hard to come by in your area. They are plentiful there, and you wouldn't have to ship them.

Does anybody know of any organizations that donate instruments?

Might there be some kind of CW preservation society in your area?

What opportunities do your students have for playing steel at your school?

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Mike Ihde · Post by **Mike Ihde** » 26 Nov 2006 11:34 pm

I know you all are talking about grades K through 12 but just so you know, I teach a lap steel class at Berklee College of Music in Boston. Each semester I have 8 students in my "Steel Guitar Lab" who either own a lap steel, buy a Artisan from Musician's Friend or put a nut raiser on their regular guitar. Towards the end of the semester when they have some chops, I bring in my PSG and let them try it. They all love it and many have gone on to buy one. I think starting on lap steel gives them the hand knowledge about vibrato and blocking etc etc and then the transition to PSG isn't so hard.
Harmos donated a 7 string to the class and Buddy gave me one of his old 10 and 9 D10 years ago to help as well. I've tried to get Carter interested but it hasn't hapened yet. There's a real interest in both lap and pedal and I think the future is bright, if my students are any indication.

Darryl Hattenhauer · Post by **Darryl Hattenhauer** » 27 Nov 2006 6:53 pm

Mike,

Thanks for the info. I think higher ed has been part of the conversation. It's implcit not only in the term "schooling" but also "one-on-one." A lot of Berklee ed is one-on-one, right?

K-12 and higher ed always work together. A lot of K-12 is about how to get people to college, and a lot of college is about how to start with a high school student and finish with a college graduate. So if steel is to spread, it would be better to coordinate the two. Does Berklee have cooperative programs with high schools?

The nut raiser option is boon I hadn't thought of. Schools (of all levels) cover guitar, and a lot of teachers/profs would probably be open to guitars with nut raisers, so it would be a short step to laps and resos.

Although psg in schools would be ideal, the real situation is that psg will be left out due to money, popularity, and the focus on band and orchestra. (Trombone ain't really popular.)

It's encouraging that laps can be cheap, and reugular guitars with nut raisers will work.

Maybe lap makers could take a page from Taylor and sell cheap but functional beginning models the way Taylor does with the baby Taylor. Like Taylor does, a lap maker could use the entry model to encourage the student to stay with that brand. As I understand it, Taylor makes nothing on baby Taylors. They profit from them by establishing name recognition and brand loyalty. An advantage for lap makers is that a student lap wouldn't have to be small.

Mike, does Carter make a lap starter? A psg Carter starter would be a bit steep for people and schools to buy and Carter to donate. The low end laps out there wouldn't have to be made cheaper. What kind of instrument donations does Berklee get?

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"The less I was of who I was, the better I felt." -- Leonard Cohen

Alan Rudd · Post by **Alan Rudd** » 27 Nov 2006 7:55 pm

Darryl, I'm not sure about the tax deduction, but I will find out. Our director of the KOS foundation is Gene Cotton, formerly a soft rock star of the 70's and somewhat famed for the song, "Let Your Love Flow" by the Bellamys. I'll give him a call and see what I can find out. Any ideas about who might be interested in donating guitars? You know, I believe Epiphone makes a lap steel, don't they? Oh, and to answer your question about the KOS program, it began here about 10 or so years ago when some locals decided our small community school was lacking and needed something to spark our kids and community. An arts integrated curriculum seemed to be a good suggestion. Not that we are there even yet, but many of our teachers work hard to use arts-related materials in their subject areas. Students have been allowed to choose from several options such as guitar, vocal, band, rock band, technology (studio w/ Pro tools) and the list goes on. This whole thing began with a Summer Academy which is held 2 weeks in the month of June each year, during which I teach guitar. Anyway, our school attempts (as I said we are not there yet, but well on our way) to integrate the arts into the curriculum, and over the years our school has made the most advances in state achievement tests that most other schools in our county, but we also had the most distance to go since we were at the bottom. The idea seems to be accomplishing what it was meant to do then, but we still have a ways to go. Anyway, I'm going to check into getting the lap or PSG into my program. I think any student who is interested can at least get the basics of the instrument and then expand their knowledge as many of us have without formal training and not be "stifled" by a formal education. I believe that some of that is true, but most of us get "stifled" from most of the crap we let get or remain between our own ears, and the system, which has to have some stability and continuity, catches flack for the shortcomings of the society we deal with on a daily basis. Most of us could have done well to have taken greater advantage of our formal education instead of sitting on our duffs and criticizing. Everyone has their opinion, but it doesn't mean they know anything about what they are saying. We have to read material all the time about some genius who is telling us how to run our schools, while he/she has never had any experience in a public school classroom. But, for some reason, they are the expert! Whew! Sorry, just had to get that out! [This message was edited by Alan Rudd on 27 November 2006 at 08:25 PM.]

Alan Rudd · Post by **Alan Rudd** » 27 Nov 2006 8:27 pm

Oh, yea! Our school is a Pre-K through 8th grade school, not a high school. Most High Schools around here do not have what we have here.

Duane Reese · Post by **Duane Reese** » 27 Nov 2006 10:42 pm

Wouldn't it be nice if Jeff Newman were still around to comment on this, being the premier steel educator that he was?

Alan Rudd · Post by **Alan Rudd** » 28 Nov 2006 8:39 am

I am looking into this thing. I took a poll of my students today and they were all in favor of learning the steel. They love to mess with the slide, so it was a given! I'm looking into it, so if anyone has any ideas or knows how I can get my hands on some laps, dobros, pedal steels or just some raised nuts to modify some of my old acoustics, please feel free to contact me. I'm open to suggestion. Oh, I also have the benefit of input from Mr. Al Perkins here in Leipers Fork. How about that?