What was 1'st Country/Rock Hit ?????

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 5 Sep 2006 8:47 am

From one who was there, it always seemed to me that "Heartbreak Hotel" was the original cross-over from country! "We" originally called the music by Elvis, Carl Perkins, etc, Rockabilly, before it eventually morphed into something called Rock & Roll.

I always suspected that the name change from Rockabilly to Rock & Roll was to eliminate "billy"....because in many cases there was no significant style change. I don't remember ever hearing the name "Country/Rock" until the last 10-15 years.

......I didn't appreciate Elvis at the beginning, but liked most of his later recordings. Pressley was doing some of his best material when he died, and probably still would be if he had not decided to end it all because he was no longer "YOUNG".

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www.genejones.com

 [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 06 September 2006 at 06:30 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Sep 2006 11:13 am

Well, yeah, because it looks like a general term, there is some ambiguity about what is “country-rock,” especially for stuff in the same era, like some isolated songs by the Stones, Dylan, Creedence, etc. But maintaining some distinction between these terms is useful in conversation. Outside of these recent threads on the Forum, I just have never heard early rock’n’roll and rockabilly called country-rock. I’m certainly no purist in terms of liking and respecting all of it. It is nothing against the Everly Brothers to including them in rock’n’roll and rockabilly, and not country-rock. In fact it says something about the authenticity of their country roots and their place the history of rock’n’roll before country-rock.

In English usage, a descriptor precedes the thing itself – as in “the red ball.” So the term “country-rock” implies that it is rock music with a country twist. That very well describes the ’60s California rockers putting country flavor and instrumentation in their rock. These were rock musicians from the rock generation playing on rock labels to rock audiences, and listed in the rock charts, although some of it may have crossed over into the country charts. What happened over a decade earlier was the opposite. It was authentic country musicians beginning to use R&B beat to “rock up” country music. It was labeled rock’n’roll and rockabilly (a lot of overlap between those two). To use the “country-rock” term anachronistically on that earlier stuff just makes all the terms meaningless, and makes conversation confusing.

We all hear the influences and overlaps. But to me country-rock (the ‘60s California variety) sounds very different from rockabilly and early country derived rock’n’roll. They are on different shelves in my CD and LP collections. The different eras define the difference as well as the different sounds. Yeah, the ambiguity gets a little messy around the edges, but the core sounds are different, and came from different eras. Some people are less precise about these things. For a lot of people, bluegrass, old-time, mountain music, and Scotch-Irish folk music are all the same. But although bluegrass came from all these traditions, it was a new style invented by Bill Monroe and Earl Scruggs at a particular time and place. It really was no longer folk music, but was popular commercial music played and composed by professional musicians and writers. This places no value judgment on either mountain folk music or bluegrass. It is just a helpful distinction in conversation to recognize the difference and to use the different terms.

I don’t know about the silo mentality. But there are splitters and lumpers. I guess either one can be overdone. But with too much lumping everything has the same label and no one knows what anybody else is talking about. Some amount of splitting can help keep us all on the same page. That’s all we are talking about. Nobody is trying to discriminate against particular songs or artists. I like country, rockabilly and rock’n’roll as much as country-rock. There are a lot of similarities, but I hear some differences, and those difference arise from the different sources and different eras.

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 5 Sep 2006 1:18 pm

We've got a fairly large Rockabilly scene in Portland and Seattle. I'm talking hardcore, greasy hair, duck-tails, old chopped Mercuries, cuffs, tee-shirts...major tatoos, etc. I guarantee they'd about take you outside and throw you in a dumpster if you said early Elvis, Billy Lee Riley, Charlie Feathers, Gene Vincent, Eddie Cochran, etc, were "Country Rock." To them it's Rockabilly or maybe Hillbilly Boogie...the original rock and roll. But Country Rock? Never. They understand the term Country Rock to mean hippies playing country...and they HATE hippies!!!

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

[This message was edited by Mike Winter on 05 September 2006 at 02:20 PM.]

John Maggard · Post by **John Maggard** » 5 Sep 2006 6:21 pm

As always, lots of interesting perspectives here...as to the original question I can only speak to what I experienced as 'country rock', and for me it falls into the "Sweetheart of the Rodeo" era; that got a little airplay in my early teens but much bigger hits were "Someday Soon" (OK more folk than rock but it got played on AOR stations) and especially "Lay Lady Lay"; two tunes that sent shivers down my Doors & Steppenwolf-loving back - both then and now. Country music was what I grew up listening to my dad and uncles play, but I didn't appreciate it until years later...I've discovered a wealth of music and artists new to me just from my short time on this forum. No disagreement that Dylan exists in a musical genre of his own but he definitly influenced most of my favorites from that era.[This message was edited by John Maggard on 05 September 2006 at 07:22 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 5 Sep 2006 6:31 pm

The Everlys are fundamentally different than the usual old-school rockabilly, IMO. It's not really traditional country music either. Old-school rockabilly is really more of a synthesis of blues and country, with the swing beat from jump/swing music dominant. I also know about that - I've played it for years also. The more recent punk-influenced rockabilly has - shockingly - more of a punk edge on everything. These days, fans of both styles use the term rockabilly interchangably and get confused as blazes. I know - I had a rockabilly band that did both ends with different singers - when I booked the band somewhere, I had to be bloody sure I knew what they wanted, because they always had something very definite in mind, but just called it "rockabilly". In fact, with that crowd, you might have a fight on your hands if you suggested that theirs was not the REAL rockabilly.

The Everlys truly are a synthesis of 50s rock and country/bluegrass harmonies. The beat is quite different from the typical rockabilly. The harmonies soar, the lead singing is very different. When Emmylou - the consummate country rock performer - does an Everlys tune, it's not so different from the original - because she got a lot of things from them. As a music form - not a media-hyped "cultural movement" - it's country rock. IMHO, YMMV.

IMHO, it's the silo mentality that keeps people from seeing this. A lot of people want to have these separations, even when there isn't much musical separation. As Mike says, a lot of punka-rockabilly guys hate hippies (whatever a "hippie" is), and they think - IMO, mistakenly - that country rock is in fact defined as hippies playing country music. Whatever. I already said I knew I was spitting in the wind.

I don’t know about the silo mentality. But there are splitters and lumpers. I guess either one can be overdone. But with too much lumping everything has the same label and no one knows what anybody else is talking about. Some amount of splitting can help keep us all on the same page. That’s all we are talking about.

David, I am not against "splitting" - in fact, I suggested that it would make more sense, if one wanted to precisely pinpoint the "hippie style country rock" to simply label it that way - Gram called it Cosmic American Music. That label makes a lot more sense than country rock, which is a completely generic term. But specifying "California country rock" or some such thing is equally descriptive. The goal is to be able to communicate precisely enough so everyone is on the same page.

If you think we, on this forum, are on the same page about a lot of this, I disagree. This is a group of diverse players with very different cultural and musical values. If we want somebody from a different musical culture to understand what we're talking about, it's not good enough to use our in-crowd jargon - we need to reach out to get understanding. Of course, if we don't care - fine, we can just stay in our silos - and be sure that nobody from outside encroaches.

Anyway, where we are is we have bunches of people who will continue to use whatever bloody terminology they want, and continue to argue senselessly about

1) What's REAL country?
2) What's REAL country rock?
3) What's REAL jazz?
4) What's REAL blues?
5) What's REAL rockabilly?
6) What's REAL bluegrass?
7) What's REAL old-time music?

What's REAL southern rock?

and so on, like I see happen over and over again, because people don't want to say things like "traditional country", "old-school rockabilly", or "west coast country rock". So be it. I never expected to change anybody's mind, but I'm not gonna back down.

Herbie Meeks · Post by **Herbie Meeks** » 5 Sep 2006 7:02 pm

No way to take "Rock Music" out of the 1950's and credit it to Rockabillie, The word, Rock, Started, referring to the Jitterbug, or Boogie,at most gigs , when the front man introudeced the band with the then popular phrase, " We Are Going To Rock This Joint Tonight " Bill Haley lucked out, by recording a Song, Rock aroubd the clock, using this phrase, In the 1950's This song became an International Hit, This the word ROCK, was very successful in Recordings in 1960's and 70's, Semantics, Yes, but it sold millions of Records,
rock 'n' roll or rock-and-roll (rŏk'ən-rôl')
n.
A form of popular music arising from and incorporating a variety of musical styles, especially rhythm and blues, country music, and gospel. Originating in the United States in the 1950s, it is characterized by electronically amplified instrumentation, a heavily accented beat, and relatively simple phrase structure.

rocknroller rock 'n' roller or rock'-and-roll'er n.

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David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 5 Sep 2006 10:48 pm

David M., I agree the Everly Brothers are hard to label. They are definitely part of rock'n'roll, but I consider them also rockabilly. The post-punk rockabilly crowd tend to ignore the old-school rockabilly ballad tradition that the Everlys epitomize. The modern rockabilly purists are like some bluegrass purists. I play in what I consider a punk-rockabilly band. All of them except me grew up in the punk era. There is one venue here that wont book a rockabilly group unless there is an acoustic bass. What a load of crap. When I was playing the original rockabilly in North Mississippi in the late '50s, there were plenty of groups that had an electric bass. Me, I like it all. In the '70s I happened to be in L.A. and was blown away by the punk scene. It had an edge that reminded me of the original rockabilly scene.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Sep 2006 4:32 am

Yes, David - that is the "silo mentality" I'm talking about. I deal with it all the time, in music, science, engineering, you name it. IMO, it really stems from the "My XXX is better than your XXX, my XXX is the only REAL XXX, you're just a poser." mentality. It makes inter/multi-disciplinary work very difficult to impossible. It's been studied to death, but it's hard to change, IMO. I think it's because humans, and most animals for that matter, are so strong at differentiation, which is often necessary for survival, but interferes with more advanced functions, IMO.

Yup, I generally play with people much younger than myself also, same paradigm you're talking about. And I like it all too.

The reason I get worked up about this is that we often can't even agree that it's worth trying to sharpen up our terminology so we can discuss things across boundaries. On a thread like this, one guys asks "What was the 1st country rock hit", and suggests possibly "Rock Around the Clock" because it was an early song that mixed hillbilly and the jump-blues thing that became the foundation of rock and roll, everybody jumps in and says that the only true country rock is hippies playing country songs - because, somehow, Time Magazine, Greil Marcus, and Ralph Gleason set that into motion in 1970, and therefore that stands as the immutable definition of country rock. IMO, we can't have an intelligent conversation if we can't get past this type of thing. My own view is that if the semantics is so ambiguous that it interferes with clear communications, that semantics needs to be refined. Like I said, I know I'm spitting into the wind. Fine.

Mark Lind-Hanson · Post by **Mark Lind-Hanson** » 6 Sep 2006 7:16 am

Well I know for myself that I considered it a genre before Ralph Gleason et al in 1970, because I was blown away by both Sweetheart and
Nashville Skyline, Poco as well, and that's for my two cents, where it begins.
Bill Haley, i would call one of the founders of R & R (period) and of a previous/pre-historic era.
Everything became legitimized via what the Byrds, Dylan, & the Band did with it, and I don't think those of us influenced by the music needed the Critics to tell us that.
It was what was.
you also have to take into account at the time the influence of FM radio and that a lot of the "country rock" of the time rarely made it PAST FM radio until the Eagles came, and they sort of broadened it all out. IMO, and IMO's are what are making this thread go.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 Sep 2006 7:43 am

Okay, I see what you are saying, Dave. I accept and like all of it, and am not trying to discriminate against any of it. I'm just trying to mediate the semantics to keep us using the terms generally used in the music world. These are fuzzy general terms, and there will always be stuff around the edges that could go either way, or both ways. But it seems to me the music world generally reserves the term "country-rock" for the California hippie stuff from the '60s. As you know, there is a 5-page thread on who the originators of that were. Before that period, a mixture of country and rock'n'roll was called rockabilly. The originator of this thread used the term "country/rock" and clearly was asking about its origins in the '50s or earlier. That would normally be called rockabilly. We could call it "country/rock" here, and use "country-rock" for the '60s stuff. But outside this thread, nobody would understand that.

Now, one might ask, what is the definition of rockabilly? Until recently, that meant all of the stuff by '50s white country musicians that rocked. Most of those guys interspersed ballads with their fast stuff, and that was also considered rockabilly. All of this stuff is also part of early rock'n'roll, and most people would accept either term for it. There was a lot of stuff back then that could be called country, rockabilly or rock'n'roll. There was just too much overlap to separate every piece of music into only one of those categories. There was some rock'n'roll that would not generally be called rockabilly - that would be doo-wop and crooners like Pat Boone. And there was plenty of country that would not be considered rockabilly. But a lot of the core of early rock’n’roll could be called any of the three terms. Likewise, in the ‘60s there is some stuff that could be called folk-rock, country-rock, rock, or country. But in spite of the obvious influence, and the mixture of country and rock, that stuff is not generally called rockabilly. Rockabilly was country musicians playing rock in the ‘50s. Country-rock was rock musicians playing country music in the ‘60s. Some similarities, but also big differences. One can focus on the similarities and lump those together and use those terms interchangeably, but to me that doesn’t help in discussions.

And nothing is ever quite the same when it comes around again. What today’s rockabilly purists are into is only a thin slice of the original rockabilly, and it has been transformed by punk sensibilities, as well as neo-swing sensibilities. The whole greaser-jeans-tattoes-pocketchain- motorcycle boot look that is now de rigueur borrows more from the big city gang culture than from the original small-town and rural southern rockabilly. I don’t mind that. I lived through punk and like neo-rockabilly. But having grown up with the original, I recognize that it was a lot broader, and fuzzier at the edges.

So the bottom line for me is that I don’t get bent out of shape arguing over what to call stuff at the edges that defies categorization. But there is a core of each of these various genres that is fairly clear and distinct to most people in the music world. Reserving different terminology for these cores seems to make sense and aid mutual understanding in discussions. To me it just doesn’t seem helpful to call Poco, The Eagles and Ronstadt rockabilly, and to call Bill Haley, early Elvis, Wanda Jackson, and The Everly Brothers country-rock. It’s not a matter of valueing one more than the other, or denying influences. It’s just a matter of how sloppy and confusing you want to be in the terminology. My Dad always said that Beethoven jazzed up the rhythm when he restated the theme in the final movement of the 9th Symphony. Well, yeah, but I would not call that symphony a jazz piece by a jazz musician.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Sep 2006 12:45 pm

David - we are not far apart here. But I somewhat disagree that there is universal consensus on the use of these terms. I think some of these threads point that out. I simply argue that, for ourselves, we need to be clear, but still accept alternative views. I'm not sure we always completely fathom the significant cultural differences that exist between some of the different communities of players here.

I agree that the mainstream, urban, mostly rock/jazz/blues oriented press and its associated musical community does generally agree on the "standard" terminology, for the most part. That's because they have had the largest bully pulpit to preach from about their view of the music world. To them, country-rock (with the hyphen essential) is a cultural movement where, among other things, "longhairs play country music", more or less. But, frankly, a lot of people outside the mainstream couldn't care less what the mainstream urban press thinks about the music that they, essentially, invented down South. To be honest, I concur with them. Suppose you've been playing a style of music, integrating elements of country and rock & roll together for the last 50 years, calling it country rock, rock country, whatever you want. Now some much younger guy comes along and says "Hey, that's not country rock - country rock is a cultural movement of hippies playing country music in the late 60s and 70s." They show the old man a Time article - "See, there's the proof." What's the old man say? "Hey, I was playing this stuff when you were in diapers, kid. A bunch of those longhairs learned how to play this stuff listening to people like me. I'm tellin' you, it's country rock." I've had conversations like this with some older players. I have seen this same kind of thing in blues also. I just think it's a bit presumptuous to tell the true progenitors what they ought to call their music.

Of course, since rockabilly is now a current style, the boundaries around it are in flux. A lot of people I have interacted with over the last 10-15 years think rockabilly is centered around people like the Rev Horton Heat and the Cramps, and a lot of them are strangely oblivious of just how important people like the early Elvis Presley, Carl Perkins, Charlie Feathers, Sonny Burgess, and Bill Haley were. Somehow, Johnny Cash is immune, 'cause, well, he's Johnny Cash. They are, effectively, rewriting the definition of rockabilly, to the point where, at some point, the original rockabilly pioneers may be essential lumped into the same group of performers as the more R&B oriented people like Little Richard and Chuck Berry. A lot of these folks consider somebody like Big Sandy to be country music. I tried to introduce a steel guitar into my rockabilly band, and everybody freaked out. I left. It's as if they're trying to "sanitize" the original country influence out of it. I don't like that part of this, even though I love, and am happy to play, the more urban version typified by Brian Setzer.

For me, it's a matter of establishing ones own musical identity, instead of letting the mainstream press do that. As usual, this is about power and control. Like these older fellas, I just shrug my shoulders when people say thing like "that's got a steel guitar in it, it must be country music."

To answer the original question. Using the broad defn of country rock, I'd say "Blue Suede Shoes" was the first big country rock hit. By hit, I mean a huge single record that sold tons and tons of copies in the mainstream. Although Bill Haley was originally a country musician, I think "Rock Around the Clock" is, stylistically, way too much of a jump-blues to be classified as country anything. Perkins version of "Blue Suede Shoes", with its twanging guitar lines, is probably the earliest example I can think of. Using the more restrictive "longhairs playing country" definition, that's easy - Dylan's "Lay Lady Lay". For a guy who "isn't really country rock", no question that is country rock and was there firstest and with the mostest.

Mark's right - this is all IMO.

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 6 Sep 2006 2:59 pm

David called it right...it's semantics.

Dave -- I don't think anyone is letting the mainstream music press establish their musical identity. I looked at the terminolgy "Country Rock," and pointed out that...for whatever reason...the majority of writers and publications use that term to refer to what I and others stated. The fact that the term showed up in 1970 instead of earlier just shows that the fabled Fourth Estate is very rarely on time. It's really not that big a deal. I don't really like labels, but there has to be some terminologies that define certain genres. Country Rock just happens to be the term or label that the majority has accepted to define a type music. (Case in point: In most CD stores, the section titled Country Rock are full of Poco, Flying Burrito Brothers, NRPS, Lynard Skynard, Marshal Tucker Band, Charlie Daniels, etc., NOT Everly Brothers, Elvis, Cash, Bill Haley or Billy Lee Riley. I and others on this Forum didn't set it up that way...it's just the way it is.)

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Sep 2006 4:08 pm

...it's just the way it is.

Well, there I disagree. Nothing about semantics is "just the way it is." Linguistic semantics is purely human-defined, and there's never complete agreement about anything. Further, different groups define semantics any way they bloody well please, and semantics evolves with time. A lot of this is geographical and cultural. Yeah, if you're part of the urban middle-class mainstream, fine - NBC News and Time Magazine views of culture are relevant. Otherwise, I'm not so sure. Nor do I care what the marketeers call it. They'll call anything anything to move some product. It has nothing to do with music.

I also disagree that there is some kind of "uniform" definition of country rock. We had our multi-page threads, where everybody threw in their $0.02 about what they think, including me. Even among the "congnoscenti", there is significant disagreement. "It started with the Byrds." "No, it started with Dylan." "No, really, the Great Speckled Bird." "No, really, Gram Parsons is it." Or Chris Hillman, or whomever. Someone says "Creedence Clearwater Revival is country-rock", and is immediately shot down "No steel guitar, doesn't sound like country music."

If you look at Wikipeda, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_rock

you'll find that, even though they only define it post-67, they have a broader definition. I realize that Wikipedia is far from authoritative, but is a reasonable sampling of a wide variety of views. They include acts like

Alabama
Allman Brothers (edited to add this one)
The Band
Beau Brummels
Blackfoot
Blue Rodeo
The Byrds
Brewer & Shipley
Buffalo Springfield
Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young
Creedence Clearwater Revival
Dillard and Clark
Dylan
The Eagles
Emmylou Harris
Firefall
Flying Burrito Brothers
Kinky Friedman
Grateful Dead
Loggins and Messina
Lynyrd Skynyrd
Rick Nelson, in the latter stage of his career
Michael Nesmith
Neil Young, a diverse artist whoes music spans many other genres as well
Gram Parsons, including Int'l Submarine Band
Pure Prarie League
Poco
The Rolling Stones
Linda Ronstadt as produced by Peter Asher and John David Souther
Sir Douglas Quintet

None of this stuff is set in stone, and I agree with you that bands like Skynyrd, Marshall Tucker, and Charlie Daniels certainly fit, but where I come from, those guys are pure Southern Rock. Genres get redefined all the time. That was the point of my rockabilly analysis - it has been happening there for the last 2 decades, at least.

The other part of this is that, right now, country-rock - the "longhairs playing country music" variety - has been essentially commercially dormant, if not dead, for a long time now. If it ever comes back to life - commercially - it will surely redefine itself yet again. The "real" mixing of country and rock has been called alt-country for the last 10-15 years. Much of it qualifies, musically, as country-rock - but of course, nobody wants to call it that, because, like I said, it's been largely a mainstream-dormant idiom for some time now.

So, my point is that if someone wants to open up the tent to include people like the Everlys as country-rock, what's the big deal? Or how about Uncle Tupelo? Musically, they were, IMO, much more like the 60s-early 70s version of country-rock than Alabama, Blackfoot, or Skynyrd. But I'm not against including them either. They clearly mixed country and rock together, no question about it.

I'm sure I've wasted enough airtime here. I don't expect to tear down the silos - sorta like tilting at windmills, eh?

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 06 September 2006 at 06:02 PM.]

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 6 Sep 2006 5:29 pm

Please quote me in context.

The phrase "that's the way it is"...in context...referred to the CD categories in the stores, not the subject of semantics.

And, it's funny to me that all the Wikipedia-quoted bands listed are post 1967. So even the source you quote pretty much nails the genre to at least that time frame...and later. Anyway, I agree to agreeably disagree.

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

[This message was edited by Mike Winter on 06 September 2006 at 06:48 PM.]

Herbie Meeks · Post by **Herbie Meeks** » 6 Sep 2006 5:51 pm

I find it difficult to express my opinion, but seems in the , late 40's. and on throgh the years, In advertising our gigs, we had to name the genre,to draw a crowd, as the people seemed to tag the music,they preferred, first it was The Big Bands, Then Sons of the Pioneers. then western swing, as in Bob Wills, Country, was not used as a genre, Of course there was The Big Band followers, Most of these genre was used to fill the huge Ball Rooms, Week end dances,also Honky Tonks, Farm labor Camps,
Then came Rock, which was advertised to attract the Rock Fans, Then Country/Rock , In my obervation, The people tagged the genre on music as it drveloped, or as a big hit record came out , and was put on ever juke box, The first big hit. with no genre that I remember on ever juke box, was Pistol Packing Mama, Of course that was during WW 11, and many War songs followed that on the Juke Boxes, ( Then I believe the Big Music Companys got in on the " Money Act" Payola, became a big issue,almost impossible to compete with these companys, However some artists, did come up with a super song, load their car trunk dwn with, 45 vinyls,( when they were invented ) and travel to ever Radio station they could find, get air play, and if the Radio audience demanded to hear more of the song, Here come the Man from one of the Big Companys with a contrac,,,,,(we called that getting in the back door) many stars made it that way, Before TV took the place of the Radio in Homes. So my guess, Big Companys, used the genre tage, to target their customers. also mixed the genres up, May be a dumb guess, but I worked through those years,

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Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Sep 2006 8:15 pm

Please quote me in context. The phrase "that's the way it is"...in context...referred to the CD categories in the stores, not the subject of semantics.

I believe I have quoted you in context. The only semantics here is the label "country rock". I read you to mean that the semantics - meaning - of the term "country rock" is as in your example:

(Case in point: In most CD stores, the section titled Country Rock are full of Poco, Flying Burrito Brothers, NRPS, Lynard Skynard, Marshal Tucker Band, Charlie Daniels, etc., NOT Everly Brothers, Elvis, Cash, Bill Haley or Billy Lee Riley. I and others on this Forum didn't set it up that way...it's just the way it is.)

You argue, by example, that the semantics of calling that style of music "country rock", with everything else "not country rock" is simply "just the way it is". I think I'm exactly in context. I assume you disagree, and that's fine.

Of course, I already agreed that the "rock-oriented music world", so to speak, also uses the term this way, and pointed out that Wikipedia also adopts this terminology. But my point was, even with that period definition, they called some bands country rock - like Alabama, Allman Bros, The Band, Creedence, and Skynyrd - that most don't lump into that category. That, by itself, is not important - but the critical conclusion is that it is far from universally agreed upon exactly what constitutes country rock, even in that restricted context.

Of course, I am also very happy to agreeably disagree.

Herbie - I agree with you, even though I was a kid through the period you talk about. I think the genre "label" was and still is mainly a marketing tool, and doesn't necessarily have a lot of musical significance. Further, regardless of label, things naturally mixed up. I honestly don't know if this would have been possible if this music started in the intellectual Northeast, for example. Where I'm from (Boston), people tended to hyper-obsess about this genre-labeling stuff. I think, down South, the creators of this stuff didn't give a rat's behind about labels - just call it something people will buy, and go out and do it. And they never seemed to mind mixing it up.

Funny, I never once got into an argument playing with people down South about whether or not a bunch of guys playing bluegrass were "pure enough" to be bluegrass. Or rockabilly, or country music, or whatever. It's just music - just count it off, son, and let's play. But I sure as blazes have up here. Very uptight about their labels - too much academic influence, I imagine.

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 7 Sep 2006 6:06 am

This is all real interesting, thanks fellas.

interesting possible juxstaposition of rock-billy as country music played rock style and country-rock as rock played country style?

Sort of implies that the country music in rockabilly was hillbilly music (whatever that is) whereas the country music in country rock is 'pure country' (now there's a concept - please forgive me, I'm an Australian)

So, when I think of western-swing, I wonder about 'western' music (whatever THAT is) but it can't be the 'pure country' if it is distinct from country as part of country & western (and they would have called western-swing country-swing if it was)

Hope I don't cause a massive stirring of the pot here - or a thread hijack - you guys sure have cooked up a musical culture over there!

JT
CS/BD

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 7 Sep 2006 9:12 am

Jeremy, you are correct.

1940-50 and 60's western-swing musicians were horrified of being classified as "country", when their self-image was more associated with the progressive jazz music of that era.

Sadly, even with the abundance of fine musicians of that era, western-swing never did receive the approval of the jazz genre, and certainly not country.

As of today, they remain a specialized music genre.

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David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Sep 2006 11:36 am

Yes, Jeremy, the labelling can be very confusing, and it’s all pretty fuzzy. But I’ll take a stab at clearing it up for you. I’m not sure what “pure country” would be. From Jimmy Rogers’ bluesy yodelling from Mississippi, to the Carter’s folksy country from the Mountains, to Hank Williams’ honky-tonk from Alabama, there have been a lot of different strains of country music. Bluegrass is also part of country music, albeit a special strain. Then in the ‘50s the Nashville sound developed with pedal steel, strings, and elaborate studio work. There are also regional strains like Cajun country from southern Louisiana. The Scotch-Irish and English who settled the Southeast in the colonial and pre-Civil War eras continued to migrate west, and settled the Southwest. So there is a common culture across the whole southern US, and it also extends up into the southern parts of many Northern states like Indiana and Illinois.

Of course there were already a lot of Mexican-Americans in the Southwest, and they continued to immigrate. That and the unique history and geography of the West give a different flavor to Southwestern culture and music. So the “cowboy music” is the western part of “country and western.” Then in the ‘30s and ‘40s Hollywood really glamorized and commercialized the cowboy thing. And big band swing jazz, which was huge on the West Coast, combined with cowboy music and country music to give us western swing. Texas and Oklahoma have sort of been the crossroads between western music and country music.

And of course African-American blues, jazz, and rhythm-and-blues (R&B) has influenced all forms of American music. If you take jump-blues, swing jazz, R&B and country boogie, in the hands of white country music guys like Bill Haley and Elvis, you get rockabilly and early rock’n’roll (R&R), which in the mid-‘50s were pretty much the same thing for awhile. Fittingly, that came out of the Central South (North Mississippi, Arkansas, West Tennessee), where the black influence was very heavy. There was great fear in Nashville in the ‘50s that R&R would replace country music. But R&R went national and then international (the British Invasion) and developed into modern rock; and Nashville country continued on its own separate path.

In the ‘60s the folk boom fed into rock to give us folk-rock. A little later, folk-rockers (mainly in California) explored the country roots of rock and gave us country-rock. About the same time or a little later in the Southeast we began to get southern rock. There was plenty of overlap in these styles, but country-rock had more folk and western flavor and used pedal steel; and southern rock was more blues-rock flavored. Southern rock had a huge influence on Nashville country; and from the ‘80s to the present commercial country has become mostly what some of us are calling rock-country – screaming guitars, loud drums, heavy rock beat, slide guitar more than steel. Every now and then one or a few artists will have a retro breakthrough back to more classic country, but these never seem to reverse the flow toward rock-country. So you could say that 50 years later rock’n’roll has almost replaced country music commercially.

Meanwhile, starting way back in the ‘70s with the Cramps, there has been a noncommercial strain of post-punk rockers drawing on all the stuff above to create a wide variety of alt-country, roots-rock, neo-swing, neo-rockabilly, etc.

Now in all the stuff above I’ve tried to stick to the “industry” terms for all these different strains. But of course it’s not that neat. There’s plenty of stuff that could fit in two or more of the above categories. And there are plenty of bands that will play a song from one category followed by a song from another category. And like Dave M. says, individual players just play what they like, and don’t try to label it, or maybe they use a different label than the marketers. The music just is what it is, and the labels have a hard time keeping up with it all. I don’t see any harm in discussions and arguments in attempts to refine the terminology, as long as you realize it’s always going to be approximate and imperfect. I also don’t see any problem with musicians playing the type of music they like, and not playing types they don’t care for. But what seems silly to me is guys who won’t play a particular song, or won’t play with a particular instrument, just because of their rigid perception of the label. I’d rather just play whatever is fun to play, and not worry much about what it’s called. And I really prefer to play with groups that mix things up. That’s how we got all these different trends in the first place.

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 7 Sep 2006 11:42 am

Yuppa!

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 7 Sep 2006 2:02 pm

Interestingly enough, Herbie started this thread mentioning the ground-breaking rock song "Rock Around The Clock". Something I'll relate (also having lived through that era) is that one of the reasons that "Rock-N-Roll" affected older people's sensibilities so much back then was that the term "rock" was a slang word in common use at the time, and it had nothing to do with either music or dancing. You see, not only was the music "offensive", the term was too!

Those readers who require more elaboration (and who may not be offended themselves) can e-mail me for the details.

(Yeah, I'm just chock-full of useless information.)

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 7 Sep 2006 3:41 pm

Same original slang meaning for the word Jazz, so they say.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 8 Sep 2006 8:48 pm

Rocket88 is sometimes referred to as the first Rock & Roll hit, though it was originally done as R&B. This isn't the hit version... it's the Alan Brookes Band version. FYI The Alan Brookes Band consists of:
Vocal: Alan Brookes
Rhythm Guitar: Alan Brookes
Lead Guitar: Alan Brookes
Bass Guitar: Alan Brookes
Steel Guitar: Alan Brookes
Harmonica: Alan Brookes
Percussion: Alan Brookes
http://freefilehosting.net/?id=rdn9ka/Y9A==

How did I do it ? I grew extra hands ! This is a selection from my CD Rocking in the Basement with Daddy-O. (I'm Daddy-O).
The mix sounds better on the CD. Not much steel seems to come through on the MP3.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 8 Sep 2006 8:54 pm

.[This message was edited by Alan F. Brookes on 10 September 2006 at 07:49 PM.]

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 10 Sep 2006 7:34 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yMZuDCOl0k

Check this one out. For those of you who like me live in the San Francisco area this is pure nostalgia.