How many steel players....

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 18 Jul 2002 5:39 pm

The slow to moderate jazz ztandards would be easy for any of the "A" players. But I think Buddy Emmons once said here on the Forum that even he couldn't hang in there with the real jazz "heavys". The top jazz players do such unbelievably fast and complex stuff, that I think it will be a while yet (if ever?) before any steel player can maintain that speed level. There are some now who can reach it for a few bars, on a really hot number. But, IMHO, I think the "Charlie Parker" of the pedal steel is still a long way off.

(Now, I guess someone will come in here and say "Even if I could...I wouldn't play that fast." Yeah...right!

)

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 18 Jul 2002 6:06 pm

The top jazz players do such unbelievably fast and complex stuff, that I think it will be a while yet (if ever?) before any steel player can maintain that speed level

As they say, the first step toward fixing a problem is realizing you have one. If jazz steel guitarists are to be recognized by the "heavies" of the jazz world (which is, IMO, fundamental to a broader recognition of it's use in the jazz genres), then we ought to figure out HOW TO PLAY like a jazz "heavy". The sweet, sophisticated chord voicings, as great as they are, won't get us all the way there. Playing pretty melodies won't get us all the way there. You gotta know your theory, you gotta develop the right kinds of chops, you gotta figure out how to apply it, and then you gotta improvise at 250-350 BPM. Horn players do it. 6-stringers do it. Pianists do it. The mindset of so many players that speed isn't important puts the "kibash" on any possibility of raising the profile of steel guitar jazz. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 18 July 2002 at 07:19 PM.]

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 18 Jul 2002 7:01 pm

I would never leave Tommy White off of any kind of can do list. I think he can do anything he wishes with a steel guitar.
Jerry

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 18 Jul 2002 7:36 pm

I'll gladly offer him my spot!

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 19 Jul 2002 5:20 am

Hi Jim, I'm not for replacing anyone on the list but I feel there are many many deserving players left off anytime we start trying to make a list. Give Randy Beavers an E9th only with normal set-up and he can amaze you with pop, jazz etc. I don't think you can leave him off the list. Give Randy a C6th only and he can do the same thing.
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 19 July 2002 at 06:58 AM.]

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 19 Jul 2002 6:16 am

Reese Anderson would handle himself quite well in a Jazz setting. He has the musical taste to not play everything he knows in every song, and the chops and knowledge to get the job done.

Al Udeen · Post by **Al Udeen** » 19 Jul 2002 8:23 am

How many of these Jazz Greats, could play a lick of Country if the shoe was on the other foot? "of course I mean non steel players" au

Bob Hayes · Post by **Bob Hayes** » 19 Jul 2002 10:52 am

Here's my 2cent's worth.I've been going to a lot of jams and shows lately and is now as well in the past..Most of the "TOP PICKERS" DO Play jazz as well as the other form of Jazz..western Swing which was originated from a cross betwwen countey, Western,blues,Jazz ,and the big band stuff.I try to play some..I'm still working on it.but I have always liked some...I grew up in the '50's (my teen years).So I was exposed to all kinds of music..My first love was country..the old Hank Williams,Thompson,webb Pierce,The Young Sheriff..and My hero was the Great Chet Atkins.. Chet off course played every thinf..and Hank Thompson ventured close to the western swing. I also was a product of Your Hit Parade, and Lawrence Welk,Jimmy Dorsey,Glen Miller music,Peggey Lee,Satchmoe, Bing,and Frank S.. of course Rock 'n Roll...came along Buddy Holey , The Everley's ,Elvis,Jerry Lee, Little Richard,Fats Domino,The Platters, Tony Bennet..Tommy Dorsey..and every thing else.
Of course my freinds and I were doing things to impress the girls..so what more than play music and have a band ..or bands..I I played at square dances,Teen Dances,parties, Hay ride Partles,,whereever..and we tried to play every thing. I learned a lot of the bar chordes from a little tri that played mostely.."Standards" and Jazz..and Country Jazz... One of the first songs I learned was "A Foggy Day In London Town". The giutar player told me that if I good learn those "BAR CHORDS" and various invetuins..I could never go wrong,,and could play almost any thing!....So I've remebered that..and through the years..I've tried to BE a Chord Man more that anything.. I wasn't and am Not a "HOT" Lead picker on guitar or sreel ..but I can back up to almost anything once I now the chord structure..and I CANNOT read music or tab../.But I do have a good ear...So geting back to jazz or swing on steel..11Most of the best or good pickers that I have come in contact with..and have influenced me through the years..have played Jazz and 'or swing..and .That's what c6th is all about...IMHO (maybe not accurate) the C6th was evolved TO play jazz and swing!. . I forgot who started this thread..but..that person is either sleeping or has his head in the sand in this..That there does not seem to be 'Many" steel players that play jazz or try to play jass on steel..Well you may be right on the Dave Brubeck Jass or stuff like that...But ob standard type stuff...well take another look at some of the steel Pickers albums!!! or get to some good steel shows with some of the top notch pickers..
But you have to like that type of music!..as for me..I've been in bands where we've done a Gerge Jones, Geroge Straight,Skinner's,Almand,ZZTOP, Pasty Cline..etc..a lot of times you can't pick and choose ..you just do it to keep working..Not to say that the music is perfect...but dancable or sellable.. But I have to admit ..my actual steel playing has suffered..and now i\I'm trying to correct that and 'Relearn to play" <

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 19 Jul 2002 11:09 am

Chas...I've played some with Walt, Bruce, Ed, Tom, Steve + Mike Miller, Albert Wing and other Fowler/"Air Pocket" guys at large. I really don't think they've got a problem with the steel

Rick, I didn't mean to give the impresion that I thought they were bad guys. I'm in awe of those people and they have serious credentials. The situation was a little uncomfortable for me, which is probably how it was intended to be, but not so bad that I needed Depends.

Bob Watson · Post by **Bob Watson** » 19 Jul 2002 11:57 am

Dave Easley is an excellent jazz steel player. He plays it all, from Gershwin to Dolphy. I have watched his career grow from the start. I always felt he had a hard row to hoe. In general,country music people don't like jazz, and jazz people don't like steel guitar. One would like to think that people who are sophisticated enough to listen to jazz would be open minded about hearing it played on all kinds of instruments, but for the most part, this isn't true. My friend Dave Easley has dealt with this fact in a way that makes me think he hasn't even considered it. His love for the steel guitar and his love for jazz have prevailed througout his career. He has also kept a great attitude and always keeps moving ahead.
As was stated in an earlier post, it takes a lot of tools to play jazz, knowledge of scales, chord theory etc. Hopefully, more steel players will move in this direction and the jazz police ( I call them jazzholes ) will realize the potential for steel in this genre. The fact that Dave has recorded on the exclusively jazz record label, Blue Note, is a testament to this possibility.[This message was edited by Bob Watson on 19 July 2002 at 01:02 PM.]

David Weaver · Post by **David Weaver** » 19 Jul 2002 12:56 pm

Dick Meis had his steel jam a month or more ago and a fellow named Dan Jones (I think, but I may be wrong) from the Univ. of Colorado played a set. He is a PhD in music and a real showman. He did a fabulous jazz number and didn't even know the name of the song himself. He and Chuck Lettes are the two that I have seen on stage that seem very comfortable up front. This "Dr. Jones" obviously spends his time 'up front' because he could handle the stage as well as any sideman I ever saw. I think he could hold his own with the Philly Philharmonic to tell you the truth.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Jul 2002 12:56 pm

Hopefully, more steel players will move in this direction

I understand the sentiments, but I truly feel that the issue is not of more country steel players learning jazz, but of more aspiring jazz musicians deciding to use the steel, and s***w country music. There's one player on the Forum, James Winwood, who is majoring in jazz at a college, who chose to use the steel guitar. This is what I mean. Imagine if there were a couple of hundred doing that. That to me is where the future of steel jazz playing lies - not with a bunch of old country guys deciding to play some jazz, but a bunch of young jazz guys doing it on steel. They would carry the torch.

Dirk B · Post by **Dirk B** » 19 Jul 2002 1:55 pm

By the way, nothing about this post was intended to imply that jazz players are elite or special; I hope it's obvious that many of our very best, absolute world-class steelers choose to play other types of music (Joe Wright, Jimmy Crawford, Lloyd Green, on and on).

I was just struck by the fact that there seem to be so few steel players who are conversant with jazz; yet there's a bunch of amateur jazz people here in my home town, many of them frankly of average talent and ability, who can play it, and get through several sets of tunes at that.

As some above have pointed out, western swing does have jazz elements, but it's not quite the same thing. The changes in Roly Poly are not comparable to the changes in Green Dolphin Street or All The Things You Are, although all the above songs have a swing feel.

Someone emailed me to point out that Buddy Charelton needs to be added to the list -- let's also add David Spires and the European player Jelle Biel.[This message was edited by Dirk B on 19 July 2002 at 03:33 PM.][This message was edited by Dirk B on 19 July 2002 at 03:34 PM.]

Dirk B · Post by **Dirk B** » 19 Jul 2002 2:38 pm

Hey Jeff,
Have you ever thought of playing a set on the Talent Search night at the convention?

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 19 Jul 2002 2:57 pm

Bob Hayes: I wish I had said that !! Fits like a glove !!

Regards, Paul

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Jul 2002 4:57 pm

western swing does have jazz elements, but it's not quite the same thing. The changes in Roly Poly are not comparable to the changes in Green Dolphin Street or All The Things You Are

Boy, that's an understatement.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hey Jeff,
Have you ever thought of playing a set on the Talent Search night at the convention?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. I could never handle the pressure. The best I can offer is my knowledge, FWIW. I'm an open book. If someone thinks I have something useful to say about something, they are welcome to whatever I know. What I do know is that understanding jazz theory and application is fundamental to playing jazz, no matter what instrument you play. It is the only popular musical discipline where there is a tremendous emphasis placed on theory, and the only pop musical discipline where improvisation is not just a random, loose concept, but fundamental to the structure of playing and needs to follow prescribed forms. Knowing theory is the substance of that, and I know a fair amount of this theory and how it can be applied on a steel guitar, and I offer it to any one who wants to listen. Of course, a player still needs the chops and creativity to play things interestingly. And the day when a Charlie Parker appears on the steel will be, IMHO, one of the great moments in our history.
BTW, here's an example of a thread where John Steele and I contributed a lot of thoughts and some steel tab examples on a theoretical subject. Just an idea of what we know and can help players with.
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/001240.html

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 19 July 2002 at 06:16 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Jul 2002 6:42 pm

Jeff,
I have heard good things about this open jam. It is well worth checking out. I gig with the bass player and he gave me this info:

The jam is at the Lenox Lounge, 125th and Malcolm X Blvd (Lenox Ave) on Monday
nights, 9pm. The house band does a long first set and then it's open.

Good place to do some playing and meet jazz players.

Have you talked to the PSGA guys about doing a set this year in Ct ? I was nervous at first with the one I did but once the music started it was fun.

In any case keep us posted on whatever jazz gigs you have coming up.

Bob

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Jul 2002 7:38 pm

Have you talked to the PSGA guys about doing a set this year in Ct ?

Not something I want to do.

In any case keep us posted on whatever jazz gigs you have coming up

I'll let you know. Nothing doing right now.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 19 July 2002 at 08:40 PM.]

Tommy White · Post by **Tommy White** » 19 Jul 2002 8:40 pm

Dirk B,
Are you a jazz pedal steel guitarist?
T.W.[This message was edited by Tommy White on 19 July 2002 at 11:15 PM.]

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 19 Jul 2002 8:44 pm

I'm late to this thread, but might I suggest Buzz Evans as one who could hang with the best of them?

JB

------------------
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Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 19 Jul 2002 10:38 pm

I think what Jeff said

You gotta know your theory, you gotta develop the right kinds of chops, you gotta figure out how to apply it, and then you gotta improvise at 250-350 BPM. Horn players do it. 6-stringers do it. Pianists do it. The mindset of so many players that speed isn't important puts the "kibosh" on any possibility of raising the profile of steel guitar jazz.

really distills the essence of the problem.

Right now, there's no one who could hang in there with a top jazz group. But maybe some young kid out there will read this statement, and take up the challenge.

William Steward · Post by **William Steward** » 20 Jul 2002 5:44 am

I have enjoyed some of the comments and listening suggestions buried in this thread especially Jeff and Bob's comments getting at the problem of trying to discuss such a broad catch-all category as "jazz". I have been sifting through the recordings out there looking for more cutting edge new music incorporating steel. A lot of the 'jazz' steel that I have come across so far is as someone put it "bebop-derived"....fast picked solo lines or comping against chord changes. There aren't many acoustic instruments capable of the sounds on a steel and yet we still don't hear steel mixed with much new music which seems a shame. I understand Brian Blade uses some steel in his recordings and have to check them out. Maybe there should be more focus on artistic intent in the music rather than just "keeping up with the changes"...the number of notes per minute has never been a great indicator of quality for me. Rather than breaking down poor old Marian McPartland's door to get the steel 'legitimized', take the guitar to Berklee and some of the other music colleges and get the younger cats playing one, then you will start seeing it pop up in all kinds of places (I understand there are a few Cougar steels there). I would love to hear how Dave Holland or people of that calibre could integrate steel in an arrangement. Jazz, shmazz it's just a category!

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 20 Jul 2002 6:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You gotta know your theory, you gotta develop the right kinds of chops, you gotta figure out how to apply it, and then you gotta improvise at 250-350 BPM. Horn players do it. 6-stringers do it. Pianists do it. The mindset of so many players that speed isn't important puts the "kibosh" on any possibility of raising the profile of steel guitar jazz.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Donny and Jeff,

I want to know what jazz musicians you guys are hanging with. In my opinion that quote is absolutely absurd. I actually play a couple standards gigs a week in NYC and its not like that at all. Thats like saying that if you can't play Orange Blossom Special at 250 bpm you can't play country. Give me a freakin break !

At a lesson with a pretty heavy jazz guy in NYC I started playing all these complex chords and scales things in my own half-assed way. He stopped me and said "You got nothing." Then he played a jazz blues for me and told me to sing a simple phrase and then play it. I did that that and he smiled and said "Now you got something".

Jazz is the same as any kind of music. Its takes a bit of work to get it together at first and a lifetime to master. Think of John Hughey. If I though I needed to play like that before I took a country gig fuggetaboudit !

If anybody wants to watch me bowling for notes on the C neck I'll be at Sunny's in Red Hook tonight, The Pour House in Williamsburg at 7:00 on sunday, Southpaw in Park Slope on weds and The Right Bank in Williamsburg on thurs. I am living proof that you don't need to be particularly talented, competent or know what you are doing to have fun playing jazz

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 20 July 2002 at 07:20 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 20 Jul 2002 7:18 am

I want to know what jazz musicians you guys are hanging with

Well, for one, check out "The Flying Neutrinos" next time they're at Rodeo. I doubt very much that the simple little melody line will get you by.

I started playing all these complex chords and scales things in my own half-assed way. He stopped me and said "You got nothing."

Well, if you did them "half-assed", then you do have nothing.

Thats like saying that if you can't play Orange Blossom Special at 250 bpm you can't play country

Well, I certainly don't think you could get by playing bluegrass wihtout playing Orange Blossom Special fast. Every fiddler worth their weight can do it, and competently.

In my opinion that quote is absolutely absurd

Well, it was said in the context of "heavies", you know, guys who would aspire to Martino, Coltrane, Parker, etc. etc. Even Emmons, according to Donny, felt he would fall short of the heavies, though it strikes me he was probably being a little modest. But I understand that sentiment.

IMO, as I already said, if the sax players can do it, and the pianists can do it, and the guitarists can do it, then the steel won't get the profile it needs if there aren't players that can play like that.

I will give you a lot of credit. You are playing all these gigs and you just started playing jazz within the last few months or so. That is impressive.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 20 July 2002 at 10:24 AM.]