musical intolerance among steel players..

William Johnson · Post by **William Johnson** » 6 Feb 2006 3:48 am

i agree with the starting thread . . .

i do live sound gigs and studio sessions 2-4 times per week, and about 80% are the of the musical genre that might be called 'modern country', 'country-rock', 'cosmic american', 'americana', 'outlaw country', 'young country', etc. often i am asked by bands, 'what are the best songs to work in this town (university clubs and venues)' and i reply, "the Dixieland Delight Song List". almost ALL of the groups plugged into the college circuit play the same damm song list! i KNOW this as i do sound for the 'those' bands weekly. now don't take my statement entirely wrong as i also enjoy the tunes. what does concern me is the fact that the bands and the audience will not tolerate (or ganble on) other music genres! Now there are exceptions as i play a collecton of tunes to set the sound up in the venue (tune the room) and set the mix for the band during sound check. example, i play Billy Joe Shaver's "Live Forever" and maybe Conor Oberst's group 'Bright Eyes' song "An Old Soul Song (For The New World Order)", Elvin Bishop's "Can't Go Home" or maybe NRPS "Panama Red", etc. and i often am asked 'who was that' or 'where can i get that song' or 'play that song that you played last night' or one band member yells, 'i was just listening to Delbert McClinton'. my point is that the exact same style played by one group is COOL and by an alterative band is NOT COOL! many of which (songs) have PSG parts in them. BUT, all hope is not lost as some FEW are listening to other new sounds and taking chances of not being excepted and experiment with 'the music', but are fundamentally similar musics. i often say (or think) "Pray for Rock&Roll". Many young song writers and players are refeshing!

example again, the emo-folk group 'Bright Eyes' song named "An Old Soul Song (For The New World Order)" has an intense (but basic) PSG part. Oberst's song "Landlocked Blues" has a (soft/buried) PSG part and Ms. E. Harris singing a duet with him (Conor Oberst listens to Gram Parsons and wanted that sound on this tune).

listen to the Bright Eyes tune above, Neutral Milk Hotel's "Aeroplane Over The Sea", Drive By Truckers's "Outfit". there are much new musics out there but you have to go hunting for them. you have to take off your 'sunglasses' and have 'passion' for good, refreshing, new music or i guess just passion for music.

i rambled on, so i hope my reply has continuity and reads OK.

Peace,

GrievousAngel

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Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 6 Feb 2006 4:49 am

I guess [Susan Alcorn's] stuff is so different and foreign to everything we know, that even the most insecure player can't feel threatened by it.

... and yet completely inspired.

It's built on 'country', but transcends it.

Curt Shoemaker · Post by **Curt Shoemaker** » 6 Feb 2006 6:29 am

I just recorded a new CD.One of the songs, I used bag pipes with steel. I hope this doesn't get me expelled![This message was edited by Curt Shoemaker on 06 February 2006 at 06:31 AM.][This message was edited by Curt Shoemaker on 06 February 2006 at 06:32 AM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 6 Feb 2006 8:44 am

Shoe, you know that aint gonna' happen. Bob C and I discussed this thread earlier and I certainly concur with his opinion, and why he wrote it. But, as usual the "Little Meatgrinders" got hold of it and now it's been hijacked and worked over to the point the original topic has faded away. Too bad.

Then folks wonder why the big boys don't bother to come around anymore. But it's a free forum for us even though it costs b0b to put it up for us. You guys that like to use it need to donate if you havent already.

One of the posters needs to stop the whining about material. Podnuh, If you can't find it and you can whip thru the other stuff so fast, how 'bout taking the time to write some new material for us "older folks" who are stuck in "dreamland"? Hell, we're game for anything.

Where else can you spend $5.00 to be psychoanalyzed by just any cat who is a member of this great forum? What a laugh, and how foolish for anyone to pretend they can do that when they don't even know the "Patients". ROTFLMAO.

Blues, Jazz, New Arenas for the steel guitar--Here'a a couple of folks that will be glad to share with you, Reece Anderson, Dan Tyack, Jerry Brightman, of course Buddy and LLoyd, Mike Sweeney, Randy Beavers, David Wright, Mike Perlowin, Mike Headrick, Mike Sigler, Scotty, Jerry Byrd, Eric Lundgren, b0b Lee, and hundreds of us that participate in the "hackers club" 3 and 4 nights a week.

Most of us were born at night, but not last night. We've already paid the steel guitar dues. Your turn.

PS I've got my cast iron chastity belt and asbestos underwear on so blaze away. You won't get an answer and as soon as someone makes it personal, b0b will probably shut this mess down and that's what needs to happen.
Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 06 February 2006 at 08:46 AM.]

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 6 Feb 2006 9:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Calvin Walley wrote:

…..wouldn't learning to play the steel guitar without learning country be kinda like learning to swim without water?”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hence, the essence of this topic. What you are say Calvin is that you have to establish a country style and sound in your steel playing before you move on to other genres of music.

This is what picks the craw of so many other genre musicians about steel guitar players. No matter what genre of music the steeler plays, he is locked into the country music roots of the steel guitar and takes it with him/her where ever he/she plays.

Hey, don’t get me wrong here, I love country music but, have had to accept that if I was going to play in bands that are far removed from the country music style of playing; then, I was also going to have to play my steel in manner that is completely isolated from country music.

If you think it is easy making this transition, give it a try. Try playing your steel with only about 50% of your usual bar slides and rely on blocking. In fact, sit down and play the intro and riffs, with no bar slides, of Vios Con Dios ; then do some of the chording to the song but, stay away from about 50% from bar slides . It’s like learning to play the steel all over again.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 6 Feb 2006 9:57 am

but learning to play country should give you the tools to play whatever you like

calvin

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 6 Feb 2006 10:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Calvin Walley wrote:
…..wouldn't learning to play the steel guitar without learning country be kinda like learning to swim without water?”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shouldn't you learn Hawaiian before Country?

Terry
pedal Hawaiian/country/rock/jazz/ steel guitarist.

[This message was edited by Terry Edwards on 06 February 2006 at 10:22 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Feb 2006 10:54 am

Well, at least we're back on topic.

Calvin, you're a stubborn man.

Personally, I, Dave Mudgett, agree that learning country is a reasonable and even good way to start, even if one wants to ultimately move in a different direction.

But the real question is why any member of this forum has any problem with any other player who decides they want to approach it from a different point of view? A lot of ideas have been advanced - sorry, Fred if some of that seems to be psychoanalyzing it. I'm theorizing because I really can't relate, even though I am sometimes rigid myself.

Calvin, you are a microcosm of this issue, to me. I understand that pedal steel equates to country music, for you. Rather than leave us to try to psychoanalyze why this is the case, it would help us more if you could somehow explain why you seem to feel that no other approach is valid. I don't say this out of anger at all - I'm willing to listen if you feel like explaining. There are lots of people here who agree that country-only or country-first are valid approaches, but why is it the only valid approach? We already know that most pedal steel instruction is country or swing oriented. What is it about the pedal steel that you think forces "country".

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 6 Feb 2006 11:08 am

ok let me see if i can do this :

the primary reason its almost required to learn country is that there are very few of the younger player that have reached a level of profecency to put out the teaching materails . i am sure at some point it will happen. but think about this : the steel itself is only about 50-60 years old now think about the age of the guys that have put out instuction materails and you will see where i'm coming from
for all you rockers, your time will come when you will have tons of materail to learn from , it's just like most things it takes time to mature and develop

i did not intend to leave out the other roots of the steel its that i just don't often think about them

calvin

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Feb 2006 11:30 am

OK, Calvin - if I understand you correctly, you're arguing that one should study country-first because that's where the instructional materials are. Is that correct?

From the rest of your statement, it sounds as if you have no real problem with other styles, like rock or blues. Is that correct?

From this last post, I assume you have no real problem if some mavericks want to go their own way in learning other approaches. Is that correct? Let me say that this sounds much more reasonable that some of your earlier comments.

For everyone else, the reason I'm engaging in this discussion with Calvin publically is to try to understand what many have said are intolerant comments from him. I think it's important to open up a civil dialog between people who have sharply divided views. Our culture has thrived on "divide and conquer" for a long time now. I hate to see that happen on this forum.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 6 Feb 2006 11:45 am

ok dave let me first get this outa of the way ; i am and always will be a counry purist
with that said;
i think that in the long run if steel is to survive it will have to accept some of the new styles. that does not mean that i personelly will listen to it. but i think that we can all agree that the steel is still evolving even if i don't like it. but trying to say that its not a counrty instrument is like saying that a mandolin is not a bluegrass instrument. sure you can play anything on it but that how its mostly identified

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 6 Feb 2006 11:46 am

Dave M. the opinions certainly arent psycho anything. It's the fact that some folks want to paint older fellows with broad brushes about why they like country music, utilizing powers they dont posses.

The same can absolutely be said about those of us who like blues, classic rock, or any other genre. I simply will not allow myself to be placed into any category by rank ass amateurs who don't even know me, and least of all they dont have a twit of an idea what kind of music I play.

After spending the better part of 60 years playing this instrument, I believe I have enough experience in country, blues, new orleans jazz, and classic country to hold my own with any of these young "whipper snappers" in any of those categories. I refuse to be humble about that fact.

Factually, there are lots of older phorum phartts who fall into the same category. We just don't care what kind of music you want to play. Just do it, but keep your prying, no knowledge, stereotyping butts out of the psycho business of perhaps why "old country folks" don't like some of the other styles. You're not really qualified you know.

Here's a small piece of advice, spend more time on doing what you want to do and leave the 'dinosaurs' alone. We've probably already been, and come back from where you're going. And for goodness' sake stop the bitching and whining. Some of you sound like jealous wannabees. Get a life and be joyful that you have the opportunity to play any and all kinds of music. Folks it's your choice and no one elses.

I've just done a search on one of the cats who's eating up a lot of hard drive. I'm absolutely convinced he doesn't like anyone, anything, and probably has to cover his head to go to sleep at night. Bad case of whatever. It's gonna' be a long life for this dude. That's wisdom and experience speaking. I've been there and it's a hell of a long road he's travelling, but it's his and I respect that.
Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 6 Feb 2006 11:58 am

Wow Fred, I hope I am not one of the *&*^%%$#$#@ who you referred to. It was just my take on the lead-in thread.

Please read my signature line!

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 6 Feb 2006 12:02 pm

the primary reason its almost required to learn country is that there are very few of the younger player that have reached a level of profecency to put out the teaching materails .

I'm not sure that Calvin's premise is unreasonable.
He goes on to say

sure you can play anything on it but that how its mostly identified

I've read similar statements, posts regarding prejudices about steel--a rock band's questioning their need for steel: 'We don't play much country.'

Steel was born of country, for the most part--unless we think about Hawaii or India--so at least in this country. It's not a stretch that country would be the most accessible means to approach it.
In my experience, it's harder to learn unless you're willing to fully embrace the country tradition. I don't, and it may be a hindrance.

(Now, I'm not a part of the club that Phred listed; surely we're not going to have to look into credentials again to determine who should post! Bob's thesis opens the discussion about the role of country with respect to steel.)

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 6 Feb 2006 12:22 pm

Les, IMO your post was certainly in line with the original intent of the thread. For some reason there are some people who migrate to the left when a controversial subject is approached, but you've never been one of those. Must be imbedded somewhere in some folks nature.

Charlie, the original post read something like this:

"Topic: musical intolerance among steel players.. "

and for a spell the thread followed the theme, and then the crap starts about country vs all other kinds of music. Lack of proper training material amonst other things. Most of us are simply tired of the wanderings of some and never have I or any of my friends ever suggested credentials for posting.

I have read suggestions that might improve some folks being able to clarify what they mean but I've yet to see any of us suggest perhaps "ID Cards" be issued to simply post. I thought the idea about the "Expert Class" to be absolutely absurd.

I was and am absolutely convinced of the original intent for this, Bob Carlucci's post. The reason, Bob is a personal friend of mine and I spoke to him directly about the way this thread was going and I can tell you it didn't have anything to do with learning materials or any other aspect than "intolerance" of some few musicians towards others and that's all.

If threads are allowed to wander around, I guarantee chaos will set in, in concrete. Further it's almost impossible for the moderators to catch every item that does so.

Final question; Who the hell cares what category, genre, or style music is played on this instrumet? And more importantly WHY do they care? Folks we've certainly lost our perspective if these are the two main questions that seem to pop up every time a thread like this starts. My .02 worth.

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

[This message was edited by Fred Shannon on 06 February 2006 at 12:23 PM.]

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 6 Feb 2006 12:35 pm

it goes without saying that i don't like "rap " music lord how can anyone call that music is beyond me BUT the only time it bothers me is when its blaring in the car next to me or when someone leaves it blasting while they go inside to pay for gas or something . so am i intolerant of it ?
only when i am subjected to it without my consent

calvin

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Feb 2006 12:48 pm

Fred - if my comments have offended you, I apologize up front. I have no interest in stereotyping anybody. Any "theories" I have argued come from talks with specific people that I know very well and have talked with this about. I don't argue that these ideas generalize. I'm interested in what people actually have to say about it - if it's BS, fine - I'm open to criticism.

I have never cared who likes what kind of music and I'm not that sensitive to who likes or doesn't like what I do musically. The question that motivated me to join this thread is why, sometimes, some forum members angrily denounce whole styles of music and players who practice them. I don't claim to understand it - anything I have said is an attempt to understand, which is why I responded to Bob C.'s initial post on that very subject.

Calvin - I think we guessed you're a country purist.

Actually mandolin started out as a classical and popular music instrument - witness the Gibson "mandolin orchestras" from the early 1900s. In my opinion, it is no more "a bluegrass instrument" than steel is "a country instrument". Of course, I already agreed with you that, in the public mind, pedal steel is mainly a country instrument.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 6 Feb 2006 1:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Charlie, the original post read something like this:

"Topic: musical intolerance among steel players.. "<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, I admit it, I got sidetracked.

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 6 Feb 2006 1:08 pm

Let's try a different analogy.

A hemostat is typically thought of as a Surgeons instrument. But some folks in the 60's decided it could be used differently to ... uh...you know...

...and it became very popular!

Terry

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 6 Feb 2006 2:09 pm

hey dave
how could you tell...haha

calvin

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 6 Feb 2006 3:31 pm

Jim Sliff, Joe's Rock & Roll Video has the "meat" you require, as does his new "House of the Rising Sun" DVD.

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 6 Feb 2006 4:26 pm

Getting back to the original topic, I think that it's not a case of intolerance for different players or different styles, but specifically intolerance for Robert Randolph.

Nobody is intolerant of Me. Some people don't like my stuff, but I've not been the target of hate the way he has been. Nobody has shown that kind of intolerance for Bob Taillifer, or Joe Goldmark, or B.J. Cole or Robert Powell, or Hal Merrill or Al Vescovo or Bruce Kaphan or even Chas Snith and Susan Alcorn, both of who's work stretches the boundaries of the very definition of the word music. No. The intolerance seems to be reserved to Robert exclusively.

So why is this one player the target of all this hostility? Could it be because he's young, or successful? Could it be because he's black? Are there some people here who are still hung up on race?

I don't know the answers, but I think the question ought to be looked at, and perhaps some of the people who have shown such hostility to the man should look into their hearts and ask why he inspires such a heated reaction.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 6 Feb 2006 4:54 pm

That wasn't the original topic at all, Mike. Here it is, for reference:

I am not wanting to get a Garcia or Randolph debate going here, just would like to understand why some great players and genuinely nice guys become ornery when they hear a steel guitar [or any instrument for that matter] played in an unorthodox manner, or in a style of music they dislike..

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 6 Feb 2006 5:04 pm

b0b - thanks. As soon as I can afford it, I'll order that one. for some reason, I had not seen it in the vast mass of stuff on Joe's site.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 6 Feb 2006 5:32 pm

I see pretty serious negativity directed at other places than RR. Jerry Garcia, different styles of music and playing (especially rock and "new country"), different modes of dress, different modes of behavior, b@njos (perhaps somewhat in jest, I realize), and other things are occasionally fodder for some pretty strong statements. If I was the least bit hypersensitive, I might take some of these comments the wrong way.

I think it's fairly unusual to see this type of negativity pointed directly at somebody - 2nd person - on this forum. It's one thing to take pot shots at some distant person or concept. But it's quite another to confront someone directly like that. It's sort of like the kind of bombastic statements people make about "those congressmen and senators in Washington", but when asked, they often like their own congressman or senator.

That observation frames my view of this issue. As I said earlier, it is my view that other things besides pure musical issues may drive much of this. I honestly doubt there is just one factor - people are complex. I also do not find evidence of some monolithic "bad guy syndrome" here, where certain classes of people act in a certain way.

The question to me is "When should I respond to this kind of negativity, and when should I just let it roll off my back?" For me, the answer is that unless somebody gets personally insulting, I don't care at all whether someone likes or dislikes any player's playing, musical style, dress, mode of behavior, or anything else. I suppose everyone has a different idea about what is personally insulting, but my other thought is that if it's at all possible to do something different than react angrily to a perceived insult, I try to do that.

We all have things we like and dislike. It's a free country, and the rules of the board say we can speak freely as long as we don't, in essence, get personally insulting, threatening, and so on. But it is better, in my view, to listen very carefully and ask for clarification before jumping off and composing a hasty retort to a perceived insult. I think that if we all did that, we could diffuse a lot of this acrimony before it starts.

Finally, let's save our energy for the real important questions for any steel player: like whether we should play a black or red guitar, whether we should use JI or ET, whether we should play a D-10 or a Universal, whether we should use 3, 2, or 0 fingerpicks, whether we should use "Brand X" vs. "Brand Y", and so on.