musical intolerance among steel players..

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 3 Feb 2006 7:50 am

Maybe its just me,but I see it happening more often lately... I am not wanting to get a Garcia or Randolph debate going here, just would like to understand why some great players and genuinely nice guys become ornery when they hear a steel guitar [or any instrument for that matter]played in an unorthodox manner, or in a style of music they dislike..

Man, I hear steel on TONS of music I would never ordinarily listen to,... I kind of go into an"instant acceptance" mode, block out whatever I DISLIKE in the music, and concentrate on the artistry of the steel, and find myself wishing I could lay down something played that well. It has really opened my mind up the last few years..

I can honestly say that I don't think there is any music I can't enjoy if I hear a good steel player in it, and that includes "modern country" which I have a REAL disdain for.

It just breaks my heart to see a community of truly lovely guys[ a few gals too!], insult one another and alienate one another over musical tastes, when we otherwise enjoy a very tight bonding..

The steel guitar community is so close knit and helpful to one another, I just wonder why this one very minor chink in the proverbial armor can cause so much hostility and anger among GREAT musicians that otherwise REALLY care about one another.

I won't relate the exact circumstances here, as I truly like all the principals involved, love the music they all create, and all the music they love and listen to. I consider them all friends, even though we have never met personally.

I find many good steel players are "locked in" to a particular style of play.. I know I certainly am.. but what better way to really appreciate someone else's artistry than to listen to music you can't really create yourself...

I LOVE western swing style non pedal steel, but its alien to me, as is classical, baroque,Hawaiian,Jazz and a million other forms..Hell, unless its G Am C D, I can't play it!!..

I will enjoy anything with a steel in it.. haven't always, but sure do now... Just needed to open my ears and mind a tad, and let the music stand on the talents of the one who created it.. NOT on my idea of what it should be or not be.. what better vehicle for musical expression than a steel guitar?... can't we all just listen and enjoy?, even if the package the steel stylings are surrounded by is not to our liking... bob

Steve Hitsman · Post by **Steve Hitsman** » 3 Feb 2006 8:04 am

Bob,

Have you heard B.J. Cole with Lara St. John on her CD "re:Bach"?

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 3 Feb 2006 8:07 am

why some ... genuinely nice guys become ornery when they hear a steel guitar ... played in an unorthodox manner

Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

John Ummel · Post by **John Ummel** » 3 Feb 2006 8:22 am

I've noticed the same intolerance. (difficult to miss!). The same folks that are intolerant about musical styles, are intolerant about dress, hair and so on.
Try not to lock horns with em. Simply state your more progressive, tolerant, (and correct!) viewpoint.

And remember the words of a very wise man: "You can't argue with a sick mind"

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 3 Feb 2006 8:25 am

The only time I would draw the line if I heard a steel in a hard core Rap song.My favorite style is a good C6 player doing the old big band standards,But I love ANY style of music with steel in it.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 3 Feb 2006 8:26 am

Maybe that's why my latest CD hasn't sold very well

I tried to make it a little of everything -- as much musical variety as possible -- including some country and western swing. Maybe I should have made it just another 'Country Songbook'. That's what seems to sell to steel players. (how many arrangements of 'San Antonio Rose' and 'A Way to Survive' is ENOUGH???)

And, EB, you CRACK ME UP, man.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 3 Feb 2006 8:31 am

Yeah, that has kinda been hard for me to understand as a new member here. I am not offended by it tho and in fact find it kind of funny and charming in a cranky old man type of way. Lets face it Bob C, these geezers just dont understand kids like us

Personally i get a belly laugh out of someone calling me a hippie for liking Lloyd Greens playing on Sweetheart of the Rodeo. haha.

Rest assured this phenomena is not exclusive to steel players.

Mark Lind-Hanson · Post by **Mark Lind-Hanson** » 3 Feb 2006 8:33 am

>>"I've noticed the same intolerance. (difficult to miss!). The same folks that are intolerant about musical styles, are intolerant about dress, hair and so on."<<

I would agree with that. Like yourself I think that ANY music using a steel is music to my ears at this point- and I am very sensitized to its use now even in the most innocuous, background-fill kinds of ways, now that I have been into playing it for a while.Almost like, my ears are LISTENING for it in anything I'm listening to (that,or my mind is thinking up a lick to play over it!) You really have to rise above the ignorance of others to achieve much in this life to begin with, so you kind of have to humor the situation & see 'em for what they are.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 3 Feb 2006 8:36 am

'Cause if it ain't the way we did it, then it's gotta be wrong!!! Mostly caused by psychological inertia. Going "outside the box" can be uncomfortable as a participant or as an observer. Change is hard to accomplish 'cause it's so easy to "shoot it down". Remember what they did to Copernicus.
Tolerance is a learned trait.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 3 Feb 2006 8:40 am

I know of Lara St John Steve, have not yet heard any of her music however. I have read a lot about her and been to her site in the past. [ She's gorgeous as WELL as talented].
Always liked BJ's playing so I am sure its music I would appreciate and enjoy although I am not a big fan of classical music in general. [Probably because I can't play it!]bob

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 3 Feb 2006 8:43 am

This thread goes along with the many threads on what kind of music you like. It's not about the steel guitar and what venue it's used in, it's about what kind of music you like or dislike.

I was "grown up" when the rock era really got going (mid 60's). I don't consider that "my music" and do not count people such as Gracia, who is revered by many, as someone that is a hero to me or his type of music. It's not that he may not be an outstanding musician just it's not my bag.

Obviously later "heavy Metal" and other types are mostly "noise" to me. And, I don't consider the "rock country" that Nashville is currently producing as "country music" - it's not a knock on the outstanding studio musicians - just I don't consider it "country".

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 3 Feb 2006 8:45 am

I even like music that doesn't feature steel guitar

(but that didn't stop me from jumping over to Larry's site and order his latest CD...).

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 3 Feb 2006 9:55 am

This thread goes along with the many threads on what kind of music you like. It's not about the steel guitar and what venue it's used in, it's about what kind of music you like or dislike.

I disagree - I think this is in the correct area - this thread is about steel players. Except for banjoists, I do not think there is another group of musicians on the planet with such a deep dichotomy over the status of country music and traditional values. A very large contingent of these two groups seem to believe that the country or bluegrass style "owns" the instrument.

This is more about a deep cultural divide than it is about music, IMO. The recent "dressing up" thread is just another example of this. But I'd like to know how it's possible to have a discussion among practioners of a difficult and fairly arcane instrument with people from intensely diverse backgrounds from all over the world without some friction.

Sometimes, contentious discussions have resulted in some important insignts, for me at least. The danger in filtering too much is that controversial but useful ideas may not get aired at all. I have seen people - including me - change their views during the course of a thread.

So I don't worry about this too much. It doesn't bother me that people have very different views and sometimes hold them closely - honest passion is OK with me. I don't even mind if some people seem to be completely close-minded and unwilling to consider any view outside their very narrow window to the world. Sometimes, a narrow view still sheds some light.

I do agree that people can be sometimes condescending, if not outright insulting, but so what? Not everybody is a diplomat. Every once in a while, someone completely goes over the edge. But the membership here usually goes right after them. If someone really persistently stays insulting or gets threatening, b0b applies his usual excellent judgement to intervention.

IMO, the best solution to this issue is to always try to drill back down to steel guitar - force the discussion back to the thing that we all share.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Feb 2006 9:59 am

Have you heard B.J. Cole with Lara St. John on her CD "re:Bach"?

I love B.J.'s playing, but that CD isn't worth the price for the small amount of steel on it IMHO.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 3 Feb 2006 10:32 am

It's not like this has not been covered before, but steel guitar players have not always been "Give me a hug, you'r OK and I'm OK", and what's mine is yours.

When the steel-guitar first began to be recognized back in the 1950's, there was no standard tunings or instructional materials to homogenize the venue.....everyone was on their own. It was really cut-throat in those days.

Everyone was experimenting and coming up with unique tunings, and they were not eager to share what they had with other steel guitar players. Players even "detuned" their guitars when they left the bandstand to prevent someone from strumming across the strings and stealing the tuning that gave them a certain sound.

So the point is, that intolerance among steel players is not new. There is now, and always has been, a certain amount of turf protection.

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<img width=100 src=http://genejones.bizland.com/Scan10345.jpg>
WEBSITE

Gordon Borland · Post by **Gordon Borland** » 3 Feb 2006 11:18 am

Lets just talk about Ducks!
You know "birds of a feather flock together".
People like people who are more like them selves. Preen your feathers so when the crows start splashing negative water it will roll off our backs. If you stress about others you might Quack up!
The bill is worn to the front.
Webb feet are good for ducks.
Webb amps worn on the feet are bad for ducks.
Prejudice leaves only when that generation infected with it passes on. We all have the same chemical ingredients only just mixed in different proportions. I know mine tip to the silly.

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Gordon Borland
MSA D10,FENDER STEEL KING,

John Ummel · Post by **John Ummel** » 3 Feb 2006 11:24 am

I was just listening to a local talk radio show during my lunch break. They were discussing, of all things, intolerance. (Although in a completely different context). But the consensus was: intolerance is born out of ignorance & arrogance. ($.02) There's plenty of things about which I am completely ignorant, but I sure try not to be arrogant, that only clogs the learning channels.
--------------------------------
Gordon, you are quackin me up!

[This message was edited by John Ummel on 03 February 2006 at 11:28 AM.]

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 3 Feb 2006 11:30 am

I cannot imagine a serious musician limiting their diet to only music with steel guitar in it.

Example: You might learn a great deal from a sax solo or a horn section backup in a music genre other than country - and apply it to country.

Or am I mis-reading some of these posts.

There is sooo much good music to enjoy - steel or no steel.

Terry

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 3 Feb 2006 11:54 am

So, the truth is out at last.

Gene's hit it on the head.

The origin of the E9 tuning , with the third string being a higher pitch than strings one and two, is entirely down to well known steeler Clarence Clue trying to hide his tuning by turning the tuning heads as he left the stage.

An up and coming steeler, who shall remain anonymous, strummed across the strings, and thought,"so that's how he does it"

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 3 Feb 2006 12:21 pm

I find that I just can't tolerate intolerance. Anyone who is intolerant of any genre of music is flat out intolerable imho. Heck, I even know people who play some of the most godaweful music you'd ever wanna hear who don't have an intolerant bone in their bodies. They tolerate every kind of music despite the fact that their own music is intolerable, and I have to agree with them. Bring it on I say. Unless it is intolerable, I vote for tolerance.

Look, so far we've only covered intolerance among steelers. Look at the quagmire we'll be in when we invite all other instrument players to the debate. I think all their music is tolerable providing it's got good steel licks in it.

Keep in mind that I just spent the night in the hospital going through EKGs, blood tests, stress tests, etc in attempt to find out why my blood pressure is spiked and my heart's pounding, and I am feeling somewhat intolerant at this juncture of time. I know that being tolerant will help my situation, so can't we just all get along?

John Ummel · Post by **John Ummel** » 3 Feb 2006 12:45 pm

Webb K,
You've completely confused me and I find THAT intolerable!!

[This message was edited by John Ummel on 03 February 2006 at 12:46 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 3 Feb 2006 12:57 pm

I find that I just can't tolerate intolerance.

Me too, Webb, and it seems it's been more pronounced as of late.

Steel guitar seems to have a past and a future; the present seems to be the juncture between the two, but it always seems that way. I was reflecting earlier what a young instrument it is. Spanish guitar most likely won't evolve much more, but steel will.

I've been exposed to much historical music here, and as much music that seems to diverge from that, but we all know it keeps building on top of itself.

So I have no answers, Bob, but it's a thought-provoking thing. It seems that Gene's historical perspective sheds a lot of light on it.

Jennings Ward · Post by **Jennings Ward** » 3 Feb 2006 1:21 pm

IN SUMIATION::::::::::
IF IF'S PLEASING TO YOUR EAR,, IT'S MUSIC!!!!
IF NOT PLEASING TO YOUR EAR,, IT'S NOISE & RACKET.....NOW ITS FOR YOU TO DECIDE......
A VERY PLEASANT SOUND IS AN ACOMPLISHED
FIDDLE PLAYER.... A VERY BAD SOUND IS AN UNACOMPLISHED, [ BEGINER ]FIDDLE PLAYER..
I REST MY CACE,,,,,HEHHEHEH
JENNINGS,,,,U PK;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 3 Feb 2006 1:39 pm

"I do not think there is another group of musicians on the planet with such a deep dichotomy over the status of country music and traditional values."

I don't think that completely covers it. Some of us think "country music" has nothing to do with the instrument itself. It's a tool - the style is in the mind and hands of the player.

So the "status of country music and traditional values" are really completely irrelevant.

Steel guitar has nothing to do with country music except when it's used to play it. It is NOT a "country" instrument. There is no such thing.

Gordon Borland · Post by **Gordon Borland** » 3 Feb 2006 1:41 pm

Webb,

Did they check your feet for Amps?
Get well and let us know if you take a turn
for the nurse.

Dont lay on your back 'cause might have Quack up. (I know, I know but you knew somebody was going to).

Shiss! I am just fishing for duck hate'rs
If this thread goes deeper we are bound to find one. Go deep enough and we will find that most everyone hates something.
I composed a song on keyboards with the intention of people hating it. I just made it up as I went but I knew I wanted to use dissonance and resolution, sound and slience,
crescendo decrescendo,forte pianissimo. I ended up with a very very good bad piece of music. It has been said that music is either good or bad so I did.

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Gordon Borland
MSA D10,FENDER STEEL KING,