Playing steel with a keyboard in the band..

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 3 Sep 2005 6:25 am

I just went crawling back to the band I had been with from sept 1992 until April of 2005,when I quit them... My back problems had gotten so bad I could no longer function well, and was in such terrible pain, I felt I could no longer play..

Anyway, now in Sept my back has improved to the point that I can play again[thank you Jesus!!

),and have weasled my way back in to the band.. Its a great band and I really love the guys in it!
I really missed them and the music!!

I was lucky they saw fit to take me back after leaving them flat! Rock band mostly, maybe 5 or 6 songs a night on steel... I am mostly a 2nd guitarist/vocalist.

In my absence they hired a keyboard player with FINE vocal ability, he has been thier 4th member since I left.

When they took me back it was decided they would keep him too, a good choice as the band sounds great as a five piece..

It has been many years since I played any steel alongside a keyboard player,and I now face a minor dilemma.. It seems during any given song we are always crossing into one anothers "sonic territory".. sustained chords, chimey legato fills, high harmonics abounding etc..
I think we were both aware of this and were able to work it out on the fly.. I am a REAL good listener, and he seems to be also, so we seemed to both back off or step in as the available "space" allowed....

I just wonder how my friends here deal with this type of situation.. I'm pretty sure I can cope, but its just odd to hear another instrument playing almost the same thing that was about to make it out of my 15 in. speaker.

It really forces me to watch and listen much closer than I normally would.. anyone here deal with this type of situation on a regular basis???

I would appreciate comments on how you deal with this type of "sonic similarity"... bob

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 3 Sep 2005 6:52 am

FWIW, this is what I do:

1. Avoid playing "rhythm steel"; let the piano comp behind the vocal or other soloists. Learn to be comfortable with your hands in your lap while others are soloing or comping, avoiding the temptation to always be playing. Just listen and smile. (Easier said than done!) I learned it from watching Tommy Morrell.

2. Have a general "formula" that says that we trade off on fills for each section of the song. Thus, if I played fills on the first verse, then keys takes fills behind the first chorus, or vice versa, then back to the other instrument, etc. That way we're never both going for it at the same time. Listen to western swing recordings and you'll hear this done perfectly.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 3 Sep 2005 6:56 am

Bob
I too have a problem at times playing with a keyboard player, I prefer no keyboard but a good rhythm section and maybe a good fiddle player or two. If you want to hear the Best keyboard player, go to St. Louis and check out Roy Rosetta, this guy can really play.

I have NEVER heard a keyboard player like Roy Rosetta he and Bobby Caldwell on Guitar play up a storm. Later my friend and thanks for praying for my daughter.

Jody

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 3 Sep 2005 7:06 am

Lay out more.

Play intros-lay out.
Play a fill-lay out.
Play a solo- lay.

It's amazing how much you can play when you don't play.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 3 Sep 2005 7:13 am

Hey Bill
Good advice. I always had the thing "when in doubt" lay out.

Less is more. Good post Bill.

Thank you for praying for my daughter my friend.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 3 Sep 2005 7:40 am

i guess i am one of the lucky ones..i kinda scense when NOT to play, i think Jim C has the right formula..you gotta have something worked out betwinched ya, or it will be one big battle at every job, and the next thing you know..Bob C will be walking again. The gal that plays piana in our group knows what trading off means. I hope yours does to..or you better explain it real quick Bob...and Jims right man DON'T PLAY THAT AWFUL RHYTHM STEEL STRUM STUFF...

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 3 Sep 2005 8:48 am

Good post. Like Jody says, I wouldnt'mind at all with Roy Rosetta in the band , he knows!

But Most of the time in 4 or 5 piece band, I would rather not have a Keyboard in the band. But all the suggestions given are all good ones to follow......al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 03 September 2005 at 09:53 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 3 Sep 2005 9:41 am

Sounds like a bunch of good advice and a great excuse for a cushy gig, Bob. I'd ask how you 'weaseled' you way 'back in', but chances are good they missed you and understood about the back. An unhappy back makes for an unhappy steeler and an unhappy band. Glad to hear you're back.
Just have fun!

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 3 Sep 2005 9:45 am

A lot of good advice here. I have the problem solved in that I am both the steeler and keyboardist. Can't do 'em simultaneously. Keeps me stepping however, when I gotta do both in the same song. It's not so bad when I only have to comp chords with my left hand, but the multiple soloing gets tricky.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Sep 2005 10:06 am

Sure, you can trade parts and lay out, that'll always work, but another thing you can do is learn to master different tonalities so that you don't clash. Do the opposite of what the keyboard is doing. If he's playing full, droning chords, play some fast stuff. If he's into 32'd note territory, then you play the hanging drone chords. Pay attention to you tone, too. Is the piano playing full rounded chords? Then you can play sharp staccato stuff at the same time (the Mooney or Brumley style is perfect). On the other hand, if the piano is playing tinkly honky-tonk type stuff, mellow out your tone and play organ-type chords behind him. What you want to do is play what I call both "tonal and musical counterpoint". That way, you can have a sound that complex and interesting, without being busy and muddled.

Dixieland players are experts at this. Everybody is playing at the same time, but nobody is "covering" (doing exactly what someone else is doing).

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 3 Sep 2005 12:04 pm

Bob, Good topic. Consider yourself lucky that you’re with a keyboard player that is easy to get along with. While this thread will accumulate some great advice for the steel player, I would just like to comment from a keyboard player’s side, having been in a similar situation. It may be harder for a keyboard player to adapt to a steel, IMHO, given 2 hands that can play a max of 10 notes. He has to keep the left hand out of the bass player’s way, and the right hand out of the guitar or steel player’s way.

As a keyboard player playing country standards, rock, etc., (with or without pedal steel), some things I kept in mind were this:
Avoid cluster chords, except for a sixth or ninth chord in a swing. There’s a time and a place for jazz voicings.
Only use the high end for solos or for a brief fill that won’t get in anybody’s way.
Use piano mostly, only using sustaining patches for solos or background soft strings.
When using horns, insert punchy lines (with sax and octave higher trumpet), not sustaining horns. It’s more realistic. Sustain only for swells.
Listen to the inversion played by the composite chord instruments before inserting dissonant phrases.
You don’t have to always be playing the chord.
Plan ahead to allow someone else to top off a bridge intro, chorus intro or ending chord at times (Like Jim said).
Don’t play chords for chord runs. Use the interval of a sixth (or two notes with a top-off root, a la the late great Floyd Cramer)
Don’t overuse the B-3 sound (this is difficult for some, like myself). A rockin’ piano solo will light up the dance floor every time. Don’t use B-3 for ballads. Use soft string pad.
Finally, become familiar with the stylings of Floyd Cramer, Ray Charles and similar mainstream artists.

It took me about 25 years to learn this, so I thought I would share it.

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Mike Barone
Sho-Bud Pro-1 5&4 with RHL | Nashville 112
Assorted Guitars & Keyboards

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 3 Sep 2005 12:59 pm

Maybe they wanted you back because you're a chick magnet?

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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3, DD-3, Fender Steel King, Understanding wife. http://www.Charmedmusic.com

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 3 Sep 2005 1:16 pm

Laying out does not bother me a bit..thats the way music is played.. parts,interplay,give and take,back up,wail when its your time etc.. All good advice,most of which I was aware of,... I guess I'm just "out of the loop " and it will be a short "relearn" period.. In the past I played with a 6 piece band with keys and there was NEVER a problem... I think the reason it felt so alien last night was the fact that his amp and mine were just a few feet apart,, we were right on top of each other and HIS amp was closer to me than MY amp was,by quite a lot. I'll adapt... bob

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 3 Sep 2005 1:39 pm

Bob.

Two things you are going to start 'hating'.

One is that "Sustain Pedal", and the other is 8 note four octave chords. If you have any left over, you're not going to be too fond of eleventh chords, major or minor..

I got fired from my last gig with a noodling oversustaining, keyboard, and I was wondering what took them so long.. It was mostly from my "attitude" .

Fancy that..

Good luck.

Possibly the ONLY good thing that comes out of it is that if it is a well tuned instrument, you'll have a good experience with matching intonation with "equal temperament". I actually enjoyed that part.

I don't see it lasting, from what you describe, through no fault of your own, so enjoy it while it does.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 03 September 2005 at 04:29 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 3 Sep 2005 2:04 pm

The very first band I played pedal steel in, several years back, had a keyboard - B-3 and Wurly electric piano. I think it was an advantage that I was a rookie, since I couldn't overplay.

What people are saying here is also my experience. In a month or so, we had an unspoken 'compact' about how to stay out of each others' way, and I never had an issue.

I have played guitar with keyboardists who play in a band as if they are playing solo backup for a singer or a show. They didn't listen, and just played over everything while glaring at anybody who dared play a note. But if you have a listening player, and you listen yourself, I can't imagine why you should have any problems.

One good thing: most serious keyboard players I've ever seen or worked with are good all-around musicians. I think steel and keyboard can be a killer combination. One good thing you know for sure - they aren't going to be trying to sound like a pedal steel guitar. I find it really annoying to hear steel and Tele going for major bends at the same time - sounds like cats in heat. I believe in 'separation of church and state', if you know what I mean.

Ted Solesky · Post by **Ted Solesky** » 3 Sep 2005 2:35 pm

Bob, we have piano too. I just lay back at a lower volume when I hit chords while he's doing back fill. We are disciplined, we know when to lay back. I have worked with piano players that think they are a one man band. Then I read a book while they're pickin. Another thing is to be sure that you're right in tune. The piano is unforgiving. You have to be right on.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 3 Sep 2005 2:37 pm

see next post[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 September 2005 at 10:58 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 3 Sep 2005 2:38 pm

requires both to have complete discipline.

no different with any other lead Instrument..more than 1 requires discipline for each...[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 04 September 2005 at 10:59 AM.]

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 3 Sep 2005 4:53 pm

Tony... does your reply mean you don't like playing with a keyboard guy

?? bob

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 3 Sep 2005 5:22 pm

Bob. I don't know about Tony P, but my comment doesn't. I've played with several good ones.

The best leave their left hand in their back pocket or use it as a drink holder and play from tasty chord motion to blistering lead lines without adding three octaves every measure. Also I've played locally with some good ones that kicked GREAT left hand bass.

The worst constantly noodle, turning every 1 chord into a major 11th, and every 4 chord into a minor 11th, leaving the sustain pedal pushed except for chord changes, and even then...

It sounds like a situation where the singing keyboard player will eventually drive you nuts or other band politics will be prevalant. I don't know though, it might work out well.

Like I said, it's a good gauge as to just where your intonation is.

Good luck my friend.

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 03 September 2005 at 06:23 PM.]

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 3 Sep 2005 5:36 pm

Turn up! hehe

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 3 Sep 2005 6:16 pm

In most all the bands I have worked with, there was a designated band director who controlled who did the fills, solos, etc. Works great. Jody.

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 3 Sep 2005 8:17 pm

I find that I play lots more super high harmonics and more glissandos, and generally try to play less when there is a keyboard player. Those VK-77 things can take up a whole lot of space, friends, I just try to stay out of the way. Easier with a dude using Rhodes, Wurlizter or acoustic piano patches.

The few times I've had the fortune to play with real pianos it's another deal, the steel and acoustic piano can blend so beautifully. Harder with those dang stretch tuned electic digital ones sometimes.

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 4 Sep 2005 3:39 am

I record both piano and steel part all the time and have little problem of them getting in the way of each other. When it gets tricky is with B3 and string sounds. They can sound good together, but you have to be more discerning on both instruments.

I think they can gell quite well if you work as a team. That's the big thing.

Look at Asleep at the Wheel. Tater Whitby and Eddie Rivers work together extremely well and they both play the socks off their instruments. I learn a lot listening to guys like that.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 4 Sep 2005 4:05 am

More thoughts, Bob.
Echoing Webb's post: pros share. If you piano player isn't there yet, it will be a good experience for him.

I've tuned for Asleep and Clint Black and heard their shows; never did I hear any of the clashes that some have experienced and predict. But in my pre-steel days, I never thought about it. I just did my job (hey, maybe that's why it sounded good?

) and the players made it sound great.

I'm actually a little jealous of your opportunity. I say you'll have a lot of fun.