Tuners and i don't get along

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 May 2005 4:51 pm

Eric, yes the difference between a major and minor 7th in the JI scale is 30 cents (7 hz). Far from sounding "off", those notes sound exactly on to the ear in scale runs as well as in major and minor 7th chords. That is the whole point of JI. The ET notes will be off by 12 or 18 cents in opposite directions, very noticable when played by one instrument alone. When played by one JI instrument and one ET instrument, these naturally dissonant chords might sound okay together. Even straight major or minor chords played by these two instruments might sound okay together if they are being centered by ear to the common root within the ensemble. JI and ET players do this all the time in thousands of recordings.

I don't think either one of us know much about intonation in prehistory. While there may have been some cultures that figured out how to tune harps or other fixed-pitch instruments ET (it wouldn't surprise me if the Greeks did), I would think that would have been rare and relative recent in the several million years of homo sapien history. Much more commonly primitive people had simple instruments that didn't include a whole chromatic scale, and were played in only one or a few keys. I cannot imagine our ancient common ancestors in Africa chanting a capella in ET. Blues and Gospel today is certainly not exclusively ET (I wonder how Robert Randolph tunes his steel? Whoa, let's not go there).

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 24 May 2005 5:01 pm

David and Eric, you two represent the Yin and Yang of this discussion. Great respectful posts and discussion. Now David, consider this situation:
You are playing along with a CD, you have to learn all 13 songs for your next gig.Let's just say we are talking around 6 hrs practice time.

You put on the CD, and it is a quartertone flat! So now what would you do? I would tune down my steel(assuming no pitch correction device), wouldn't you? Otherwise one would spend the whole time adjusting the position of his bar relative and way off to and from his normal vision cues.You could no doubt play pretty much in tune either way, except in open position, but isn't one way a whole lot simpler?

David, respectfully, if you were in a band that tuned a quarter tone flat, wouldn't you tune down also, even though your common sense tells you they are off?

How about a bar band that tunes in ET? In this situation,regardless of how YOU tune, you are going to have to PLAY in ET, or be out of tune with the rest of the band, there is no way around it.

Eric, if you should ever be so lucky as to play with a symphony, or a brass quartet, you would most certainly sound pretty bad(out of tune

), or at least more so than David and his JI.

Personally I don't have the time nor energy to learn a JI tuning system and practice my little Panama Red and other 2nd year player licks. I tune straight up on a Boss TU2, except the 6th string, which depending on how bad the cab drop is, I might sharp it a little for the A-F. Even in a simple song like "I on't Know You", this debate is right on the forefront. here is NO WAY you could do the opening Esus pattern with JI, and be in tune with the accoustic guitar and bass in the group I play with. I have been playing in groups on 6 string for 41 years, and have mucho experience of being in and out of tune, before and after electronic tuners came along. I can tune my GFI in about 2 minutes no problem, but for me,playing the steel in PITCH with the band is one of the hardest things about learning the steel. Playing it in TUNE is not.

Even if ET is wrong to your ears, and I respect that, why fight 99% of the working bands that tune that way?
Thanks, Jim P

Bob Hayes · Post by **Bob Hayes** » 24 May 2005 5:08 pm

My Korg...that I mail ordered when I was stationed in Germany..finally DIED after X number of repairs..back when I was still in South Carolina about 7 or 8 years ago. So I went to a music store and asked about one of those "NEW" compact tuners. The Automatic Chromatic "Quick Tune" Tuner! I think that I paid between $20 and $30 for it..It small enough to sit on my Tuners.Battery operated..or plug in a small power adapter.Accurate enough to tune with the "Varience that Jeff Preached!! Works for me.. But I'm nobody anyway!!!And I don't understand all of that technical/professional mumbo jumbo!!! I can't hear anyway!!!
Grouchy

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2005 5:40 pm

In answer though point by point is not my favorite format..

DD, I noted that MANY times scale fragments are used for different modes, and not just substitutions. There's no way that all these could be figured, or known in advance. Only out of maybe three positins at best, and I'm not sure I've seen or heard it done at any speed at all.

Also As I mentioned the "lapse" in the JN chart omits at LEAST my two favorite licks, the "Albert Lee" seventh, and the Hal Rugg, "Somsbody Somewhere lick". Two adjacent strings, a third of a fret apart from "0" in "ET". Many others to including a dimished chord. I'm sure one or more of them is closer to JI than 30 cents, but I doubt by the numbers that it's less than 20. This is not acceptably covered up by "vibrato". Not a third of a fret. I'd go an "eighth" of a fret.

Now there are the "Pedal points", like I mentioned, when the steel guitarist plays the same note as different parts of two or more chords. I very often in the open position play the sus4 of the 1 chord, which is at once the root and the fifth of the Four and Five chords respectively. Does a JI Player change it 15 cents between the three chords? Between two, or does "vibrato" again kick in.

That would explain a lot.

Playing with a Horn Ensemble? I think that after playing with way ofer a hundred bands, and thousands of gigs, I'd LEAP at the chance, and I can tell you the last thing I'd do is to try one of those 30 cents off tuning charts. If there was no "Tune Up" period, I'd certainly tune straight up or straight up to whatever concert pitch was, and sweat bullets if I had to, "centering" my playing. I've played with a half dozen double horn sections that asked for "what we were using" for say Bb's or Eb's, and Neither I nor them had any problems. Times I played with out of tune pianos like MiniGrands, and Helpenstils, I centered things as best I could. In the case of one Yammie, I snuck down to the StockYards in Spokane and Sharped the G#s the idiot piano player loved to hammer on..

I'm confident enough in my tuning, to play with conviction against flat vocalists, fiddlers that follow them, without flattening, or fret mashing tele players without wearing my strings an eighth of an inch high of the frets.

There are always fluctuations, and of course running averages, but it's easier for me to tune straight up to what my tuner and ear are used to, and play it like I stole it.

Like I said, it
is certainly not getting any harder to defend.

I think I sense a sea change, and I for one welcome it.

Even a Blind Pig can find an acorn.

Charlie, I appreciate your input more than you know.

We share a common prediction.

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 May 2005 at 06:52 PM.]

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 24 May 2005 6:03 pm

Yeah, well it gets a little tiresome to tune your gourd and the bassman plays the whole song two keys higher than the rest of us. Sad part is he didn't know it.
We could use some good drummers and sidemen around here.
Maybe Farris could take up the bass, as in guitar not fish...ha

Old Bud

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 May 2005 6:07 pm

Jim, I have tuned down to practice CDs. I did it by ear, so I would be a quarter step down in absolute pitch, but my intervals would be JI.

Every band I have ever played in attempts to tune ET to a keyboard, harmonica, tuning fork or tuner. Some of them even get pretty close (at least before that fourth beer). I had much rather they be straight up ET on everything, than be tuned a quarter step flat (or even 6 cents). I would have to play between the frets (I'm not good at that, but Bob Hofner has a training CD for doing that), or I would have to retune all my 12 strings. At the first chance I would throw them my meter and beg them to tune to it, ET or JI or anything in between.

I always hope the bass player tunes ET to a meter. That is usually the root the rest of us are trying to center on by ear. The vast majority of guitar players I have played with first tune ET with a meter, then they play a chord and tweak it to "sound right." Most don't know JI from smegma, but they are tweaking back toward JI. Of course, if the next song is in a different key, when they hit that chord they retweak or check the meter again or both (the good ones). The bad ones don't change anything and now play something out of tune that is neither ET nor JI. I had much rather they play consistently ET in all keys than to play by ear-tuning in one key and by no-tuning in the next one. When playing with someone who tunes their guitar consistently ET in all keys, I have not noticed a problem with my JI steel. I guess I am centering on them by ear where it counts. However, on a simple song with simple chords and harmonies, when there is time to tweak between songs, I think all guitars sound better tuned JI - and the guitarists do to, or they wouldn't be tweaking their chords after they turn the meter off.

The few times I have played with keyboards, I have not noticed a problem with my JI steel. My ears are pretty good, but I'm nobody. But Paul Franklin, Jim Cohen and other top steelers have also said they can play an ear-tuned steel with keyboards and sound fine. Their many recordings prove that beyond a shadow of doubt. It simply is a myth that you can't play a JI tuned instrument with an ET tuned instrument. It is not ideal, but it is done beautifully all the time. A seasoned musician will play a fretless stringed instrument or horn by ear in tune with an ET tuned instrument or group. All the problems I have ever encountered have been because someone (self included) was not in tune with themself or had their whole tuning too far out from ET (not just the thirds).

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 May 2005 7:42 pm

Eric, neither of us are historians, so let's put those generalities on the shelf for awhile. But we should be able to walk through any specific chord changes or single note runs you can come up with and see how they play out with my chart and our steels. The sus4 example is a good one to start with. In the key of C this is some inversion of C, F, G, Bb (1, 4, 5, b7). But it could span more than one octave, so the F or G might be above the Bb. Some books refer to this as a C11, which seems to imply that there could also be an E in the chord, but I think mostly there would be no E. The C, F and G are pretty much the same whether ET or JI (see my first table). If you resolve the chord to either the tonic, IV or V chord, these pitches wont change. The Bb is 18 cents different between JI and ET, but it goes away in the resolve. So I'm not getting exactly what your problem is. Tell me which notes and strings/pedals/levers you start with in the sus4, and exactly what you resolve it to. We can then map that to the JI scale in my first table, and figure out the intervals and pitches before and after.

Also, let's be clear about what is going on in those tables. If you look at the ET cents column, it looks picture perfect, and the JI cents column looks all over the place. But if you look over at the small-whole-number fractions that JI is based on in the 2nd column, you see what the ear hears. Those small-number fractions correspond to promonent nodes in the vibrating string or air column. They break the string length up into the fewest, strongest and most symetrical overtones. That's why the ear likes them, even alone in a single note scale or melody. In chords they cause fewer beats. If I knew the fractions that correspond to ET, they would have very big numbers in the numerators and denominators of those fractions. So the JI notes that look so messy when expressed in cents, are actually very neat fractions, and it is the ET notes, which look so neat in cents, that are so messy in fractions (and therefore to our ears). Therefore the difference column, although expressed in cents, is telling us how far the ET notes (and fret markers) are from the neat JI fractions, which represent real overtone nodes on the strings, that we hear but cannot see. Also, the biggest distance from any fret marker is 18 cents, never 30.

The beauty of tuning JI is that it matches the overtone nodes up with the fret markers. If you tune ET, the frets miss the nodes by the distance in the difference column. With JI tuning, except for the F/A position and some cabinet drop, both the JI roots and all of the intervals in the chords I have tabled are within a couple of cents of the frets. That is a technical explanation of why JI tuning sounds so good to so many of us, and why it seems so easy to tune and play this way.

Okay, I'm thinking this through and making it up as I go along.

But I think that really is the situation. I would love to hear any musicologist or trained physicist step in and clear up any glaring misconceptions.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 24 May 2005 at 09:18 PM.]

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 24 May 2005 7:58 pm

Eric, to play in tune with brass, you would have to juggle and "fanangle" your bar as much as you claim JI players would have to do with an ET band.(Assuming the brass players are not changing their pitch).
Dave, I never change my guitar from ET regardless of key, although I flat low E to allow for aggressive hand pressure.
Again,my point is that playing in tune(with oneself) is easy,playing in pitch(in a group) is not the same thing. I am going to try your earlier chart tomorrow.JP

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2005 8:10 pm

DD/ Not to worry. We can both speak of history in intelligent manners. I've read a lot more than I ever thought I would at your spurring.

Just for grins I pick the sus4 note because there are many songs I play against that are not certain as to what the change will be. Bands don't always play the "right chords" or it's a song that I'm not familiar with. (There are such songs.) If it turns into a 1 chord, I Very quickly let the pedal off and play it in a scale against it. It if it is a 4 chord, I add the A pedal. It now is the one. Or if it is the 6 chord I lower the Es amd swing the A pedal on. Now, It might very well be that the same note in each of the three scales is in the JI system, much the same. I don't know. Is it?

Also there is the Ninth, regularly used in this same manner before resolution is known or on a substitution that you know will indeed fit over any of the 1 IV V II or VI chords at least. Soes it still have the same "JI quality" on all the subs? I dont know. It is the 9th of the I the 6th of the IV, the 5th of the V and the 1 of the II just to start with. I use it more than the sus4 as a "safe note". I'm just asking mind you, I've never had to think about it tuning the way I do.

I can't imagine that I'd want to be confused as to which time I must temper it more to be "pleasing to my ear" should my ear make this beatless change through some chain of unfortunate events, such as being locked up with Bob Hofnar's Intonation CD. ( just kidding..)

Gotta run. Had a molar extraction this am, and am headed off to Vike Land after not taking any since the surgery.

EJL

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 24 May 2005 8:53 pm

Willis,i'm staying 100 miles away from all this,man i just said tuners and i don't get along!!!! farris

Travis Toy · Post by **Travis Toy** » 24 May 2005 8:58 pm

When you say tuners, you mean guitar techs?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 May 2005 9:53 pm

Okay, Eric, have fun in dream land. I think I see what you are asking. You play a sus4 chord on the open strings with the B pedal down. You can let up the B pedal and resolve that 6 string to the 3rd of the I, or add the A pedal and resolve to a IV, with the pedaled 6th string becoming the root. That works fine. Even with ear tuning to JI, the B pedal stop is tuned to 440, which is the proper root pitch for the IV chord in JI or ET. If you let off the B pedal, the 6th string drops a half step and becomes the 3rd of the open I chord. That open string is tuned to 437, which is the proper JI interval for the 3rd of a I chord. That 440 and 437 on the 6th string never conflict with each other, because you have to play with either the B pedal down or the open string - you can't do both. So the string changes which interval it is in the chord, but those intervals are tuned independently with the open string at the keyhead, and the B pedal stop at the changer endplate.

Now if you activate the E lower lever and release the B pedal, the 6th string becomes the 6th of a V6 chord with the root on string 9 of my uni (string 10 of standard E9). The chord is 1 (440 on open string 9), 3 (437 on string 8 with RKL), 5 (441 on string 7), 6 (437 on string 6). This is all pretty good JI. The 5th and 6th are 1 hz (4 cents) sharp of what my JI scale in table 1 says it should be. It works because my E lower lever stop (RKL) is tuned as the 3rd of the B6 mode tuning, which is also the V chord of the E9 mode (same thing happens in standard E9 only the B root is on string 10 instead of string 9).

Now if you hold down the B pedal you get a V7 chord picking these same strings. The 1, 3, and 5 are good JI as shown in the preceeding paragraph. But the minor 7th is 440 (the B pedal stop), rather than the 444 it should be for good JI. That is 16 cents flat of JI, but ironically, tuning ET would have given the exact same pitch (straight up 440), and would have been off from JI the exact same amount (of course the ET 3rd would be 12 cents sharp of good JI). But to me a dominant 7th is a dissonant chord anyway. I don't notice the 7th interval as being off the same way I would notice a 1, 3 or 5 being off. So for these four chords that you could resolve the sus4 to, the only thing off is the 7th of the V7, and it is off the same amount tuning ET or JI. If you tune ET, the thirds are sharp to the ear in every one of the four chords, and the 6th is sharp in the V6 chord.

In terms of the sus9, the JI 2 or 9 is supposed to be 441. I tune my open 7th string as the 5th to my open 5th string, so it is 440, same as it would be tuned by ET. In several songs I end by hitting 1, 5, 9, 10 of the tonic, and then hitting 8 to resolve it to the straight tonic. The 9 and 10 are dying out as the 8 comes in to top of the tonic - very beautiful. As the 6th of the IV chord (AB pedals), that is 4 hz (16 cents) sharp of a good JI 6th. But this error is the same whether tuning JI or ET. Sixth chords are a little dissonant, and I don't mind this error. As the 5th of the V chord (roots on strings 5 and 9 [10 on standard E9]), the open string 7 is right on the money, because I tuned it by ear as the 5th of this chord. I don't have a change to get a II chord with the root on string 7. That grip never occurred to me, because I would simply move the I chord up two frets to get a II chord. I'll play with the idea to see if resolving a I9 to a II at the same fret is anything I would ever want to do. If I added that Bb change to get the 3rd of the II, I'm not sure what I would tune it to by ear. What else is that Bb used for?

Of course I get a IIm with the root on string 7 using the B and C pedals. That would give a 1 at 440, and a 3b at 440 (the B pedal stop). Apparently that is acceptable for ET, but that is a bad sounding minor to JI ears, which want the minor 3rd to be 444 (16 cents sharp of ET). I fixed this by pulling string 8 up a whole step on the C pedal, and tuning the stop to 437. The other stops on the C pedal are tuned to give a 1, 3b, 5, 1 chord of 437, 440, 437, 437. These are good JI intervals, but the whole chord is 3 hz (12 cents) flat of the ET root. I guess if I sit on that chord, I adjust it by ear, because I have never noticed a problem with it. As with the F/A combination, I decided I'd rather have the intervals right than to be right over the fret. I love the sound of the bottom root on string 8 pulling with that whole chord, and I don't have to worry about blocking string 7 when I move to the next chord (which usually involves string 8, not string 7). The potential unison with my raised string 8 and string 7 is not perfect, but I have used it for double picking that note in blues and rock, and it sounds appropriately nasty. All in all, I love the 8th string raise on pedal C.

So the sus9 resolves to the I, IV and V as well with JI as with ET. The resolve to the II at the same fret is, well unresolved.

The problem with the IIm is the same as with the F/A combination. You can get the intervals right with JI, but it wont be over the fret. Or you can get the chord over the fret with ET, but the intervals wont be right. Frankly, I find it easier to move the bar slightly sharp of the fret visually or by ear, than to get my bar to bend in the middle to get my 3rd interval right.

Again Eric and I are in different galaxies moving in different directions. The more I investigate this stuff, the more I like tuning JI by ear and dislike what happens tuning ET. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 25 May 2005 at 12:16 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 25 May 2005 2:51 am

How about ears???

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 May 2005 5:23 am

Johan, my assumption and personal experience is that the ears like it if the intervals are within 5 cents of JI, and that is what I mean above when I say the intervals are good JI. I agree the ears can be trained to accept ET, but all the chords above would have intervals substantially more than 5 cents from JI if the instrument were tuned ET. In none of the examples immediately above, nor in any of the main chords shown in the above tables is there a need to tune ET to have the instrument play in tune (JI) with itself through all the changes shown and regardless of which string is used as the root. Tuning JI brings all these chords within 5 cents of JI and within 16 cents of ET. Tuning ET puts them all right on ET of course, but takes major thirds 12 cents sharp of JI, and minor thirds 16 cents flat of JI. What I discovered in another thread is that typical cabinet drop (say 2 hz or 8 cents) takes the minor 3rds further in the wrong direction from JI (16 plus 8, or 24 cents, a quarter of a fret, in this example); whereas, with JI, cabinet drop simply brings the minor 3rds somewhere between JI and ET (8 cents flat of JI, 8 cents sharp of ET).

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 25 May 2005 5:31 am

Yes, ears work too.

This is very enlightening, and
has caused me to think quite a lot
about my preconceptions. We're actually
talking about many different things
here, and why bands don't end up in tune.

Suffice it to say, you tune a steel
in the manner that sounds pleasing;
and yes, it is a myth that equally
tempered instruments can't play with
justly tuned instruments.
Compromises are involved in tuning
a single instrument, and my limited
experience with pedal steel, buoys
that up. Tuning one by ear took me
two days. It takes a lot of experience
to find one of the many paths to the
same goal.

Historically, the scale was determined
by Pythagoreas, who discovered that
bisecting a string gave an octave.
But I guess he didn't predict that one
would want to play in more than one key.
Beats arise when the first harmonic of a
string comes close to the 2nd, 3rd,4th,
etc., of another string. (The harmonic
series, in C, is C, C, G, C, E, --oh, shoot,
I forget the 6th; but the seventh is
interesting, in that it lies between
A and Bb.) That gives rise to different
scales for different cultural traditions.
In the West, we opted for the flat 7th;
in Asia, you will hear that note as a sixth
or the natural harmonic, which soundsout
of tune to us. To divide all that into
twelve tones requires varying from the
natural harmonics, which produces beating.

Enter the equal temperament, so that
players didn't have to re-tune instruments
for every song.

But I see that I can't believe my statement
that the steel will eventually be tuned
to ET. Compromises will always be involved.
I have my own system for tuning guitars,
but I doubt it ends in an equal temperament.
But it works.

I assumed that all musicians tune their
instruments to standard pitch. That's
the case in bands I've played in, but apparently that's not always the case.

Nonetheless, the steel player is out there
on his own. Setting the steel up is an
individual thing, and you learn to play
your instrument to compensate for how
you set it up, the same as a cellist or a
fretless bass player. In the end, the
ability to blend with yourself and other
musicians is the thing.

Hey Farris, you want to go get a beer?
I know this bar, they don't want tuners
with good taste....
Charlie

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 25 May 2005 6:26 am

My final 2 cents worth.
I have always tuned straight up using a tuner. Since I have a good hear ear and I can't tune my bar to the tuner or all that other stuff, I let my ear and hand compensate for anything that I determine might not sound right. It has always worked for me, so I don't have to worry about whether I am tuning like all the experts and I can concentrate on playing beautiful music on my PSG. If I had to go to school to learn how to tune the PSG I would never have had time to learn how to play the PSG.
Enough said for me!

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 May 2005 8:01 am

Robert, I doubt if anything is final on this subject. For all I know, I'll be tuning straight ET in two years. But I believe you have an unfortunate misconception. There is a lot of complicated discussion here because we are analyzing and comparing in great detail, and it is complicated to write about that. But any student with an ear can be taught to tune the strings of a pedal steel by ear within the first 15 minutes of the first lesson. I taught myself with no lessons, just written instructions on what note each string should be. All steelers did it this way in the past, and the majority still do it this way. Nobody has to go to school to learn this. Once you know how to do it, some of us find that it is easier and quicker than tuning everything to a meter, and the main thing is that it sounds better to us. If tuning everything to a meter sounded better to me, I would do it that way, it doesn't. The most unfortunate thing would be that you tune everything by the meter because you don't know how to tune by ear. Then you have no way to compare the two methods. If you try them both, and prefer the meter, that is fine. Some people prefer it one way, others prefer it the other way.

Jennings Ward · Post by **Jennings Ward** » 25 May 2005 11:08 am

DANG IT ALL TO DICKENS: FERRIS , SEE WHAT YOU STARTED NOW...I THOUGHT IF IT SOUNDED GOOD AND WAS PLEASING TO THE EAR YOU WERE IN TUNE CORRECT......DID ANYONE STOP TO THINK THAT TUNING DEVICES ARE CONCIEVED BU TONE DEAF PEOPLE THAT LOVE TO PLAY WITH MATHMATICS MORE THAN MAKING MUSIC.....JUST A THOUGHT........JENNINGS......AND SEE FERRIS I DIDN'T EVEN MENTION P######...........

------------------
EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 25 May 2005 2:20 pm

David, I started playing steel guitar 60 years ago and the first thing I learned was how to tune a steel guitar. I never have had a problem tuning a steel guitar by ear or by meter. I find the meter to be very accurate and it really works for me. I am not tone deaf and I can still tune by ear and do when a string may go out while playing, but I use the meter because I prefer it and again, it works for me. I have a feeling that some people try to make everything to hard for themselves. I like KISS method and I use it as much as possible. No hard feelings, but again my 2 cents or HZ's worth.
Best regards and let's not try too hard to complicate matters. This could go on forever.
I am going back to playing as always, with beauty and style and in tune to the ear.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 25 May 2005 8:22 pm

OK DD. here it is as simply as I can put it.

Your forcing a false premise is what I kindly and resptecfully object to.

Here are the latest, if not the most glaring examples: "Any Student with an ear can be taught to tune a pedal steel by ear within fifteen minutes."

"All Steelers did this in the past, and the majority still do it that way."

This is not true at all even in prima facie.

Add to that your incessant insistance that anybody that prefers no beats in their chords is tuning by ear. (and that people that prefer a 'proper' amount of "ringing" are not).

Nothing could be further from actuality. In my case it's not that it "doesn't matter" if the chords I like and play have ringing beats in them, it "matters" to me and offends my ear training when they don't. The latter being the couple hundredth time I've said it.

I can just as easily say that those people that must "count beats", or count to zero, are not using their ears at all, but merely "counting throbs". A person could do this with no ears at all.. Get the string tight enough, and feel the "throbs" with their hands, feet, or private parts.

Often those that don't take the time to train their ears to hear correct ET thirds will soon swear that people that people that merely "count the throbs" are the ones that have "trained their ears".

I WILL give that people can indeed train their ears to hear what you can "JI", but for the most part they are just "counting throbs".

Now that's OK until they start postulating or assuming out loud that people that have trained their ears to hear thirds in ET, are less sensitive, and "must use a tuner".

The only time I use a tuner is when I am tuning my guitar with ambient club noise, or before I sit with instruments that tune ET. At home, or in a "jam" situation, I use it very little. I am always able to give an out of tune guitar or fiddle a good loud pair of E's or B's between songs, and can look down at my tuner when I do it.

If you think you can tune throbblessly with a jukebox, a noodling, soundchecking guitar, PA or even bar noise, you are deluding yourself, or you aren't playing any of the same kinds of venues that I have for the last too many decades.

You are not necessarily less sophisticated than those that prefer ET in my personal opinion.

You are much less however liscenced thereby to tell people that have trained their "EARS" rather than their "Throb Counters", that they are somehow lacking in sophistication.

Again "All Steel Players" never did ANYTHING.

"Most Steel Players" don't tune to a "JI Chart". That's the most whacked out statement I've heard made in a long time.

MY ears don't hear what YOUR ears think they should, or must. They hear what they hear. They've been listening a long time.

Anybody that learned how to tune a pedal steel guitar with a "chart" in fifteen minutes must have perfected cold fusion in the next fifteen. I presume without a "meter"?

The ONLY reason I keep repeating this stuff endlessly, as EVERY point I've made or mentioned in this string has been repeated at least a DOZEN times in the last couple years, and not changed a BIT, is that unless somebody rebutts these wild premises, and postulations, that some poor guy will think that there is no other way to tune a pedal steel guitar than by "counting the throbs".

Otherwise I'd post a link to the last dozen times I rejected these overbearing assumptions, and preposterous postulations.

If "Oh it's just all too much for our heads" was an intelligent, or sufficient end to the "Tremendous Tunin' Question", then it would have ended in the first dozen posts on this still young subject.

EJL

(And yes, you cannot play a string with a pedal off or on at the same time, but that wasn't what I was asking. Read it again.)

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 25 May 2005 9:26 pm

I'm kinda tired of all these tuning recommendations! For about 3-minutes, would someone like to play a tune? I'd like to hear a sample of what you're saying!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’04 SD–10 Black Derby w/3 & 5 & Pad
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence
web site[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 25 May 2005 at 10:30 PM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 25 May 2005 9:27 pm

Edited for Double~Post
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“Big John” Bechtel
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 25 May 2005 at 10:33 PM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 May 2005 11:09 pm

John, I'm with you, let's hear some examples. Unfortunately I don't presently have any way to do digital recordings and post them. Dan Tyack posted some links to JI and ET tracks a little while back, but my computer was never able to open his links. I would love for someone who can post digital sound links (that everyone can open) to tune both JI and ET and play some scales, some chords, and some songs. And how 'bout someone play a JI tuned steel with a keyboard or ET tuned guitar, and likewise an ET tuned steel.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 25 May 2005 11:14 pm

Farris, I just gotta tell ya that tonight, on the way home from a gig, I ran over a possum. I wanted to go back and get him to cook up with some sweet taters and biscuits, but I couldn't find a place to turn around. So I went on home, unpacked my steel, and tuned it up by ear.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 26 May 2005 4:39 am

John, David, Eric,
Good suggestions, it would be fun to hear a
side by side comparison, but I think you'd
find not a whole lot of difference in playing. But I'd like to add this to wind
the discussion down.

A non-musician can learn to tune a piano.
After a while, it's not counting beats, but
hearing different intervals beat properly,
or what you've become used to in practice.
It's physics.

I don't tune my lap steel that way.
I tune the 5ths pretty much dead on, then
interpolate the thirds, fourths, and sixths
so that they sound good together.
It's music.

Being a musician helps me assess the quality
of my tuning; but tuning is not musicianship.

Here we are about playing; tuning steel is
a means to an end; tuning pianos is the end
in itself, for the tuner. You are all
musicians, and can thus establish the
standard for yourselves, something the piano
player hasn't the time to do for himself.

Listening to sound clips on the forum, I
can't tell what's tuned which way or how,
I enjoy the music. I haven't heard one badly
tuned steel. This leads me to believe that
you're all correct in your methods.

Let's play.
Charlie