Why People Hate Steel Guitar

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 23 May 2005 8:09 am

Me too!
Just sent it to my wife...

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 23 May 2005 8:58 am

Q. “Why people hate Steel Guitar”?
A. Because, Smiley plays one!
Oops, wrong answer again! No Cigar!
(Pick on Smiley Day!)

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“Big John” Bechtel
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Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 23 May 2005 11:56 am

Some of the sweetest music in the world was what was coming out of Oddball's (Donald Sutherland) speakers whilst he was parading forward in the army tank. (I believe the movie is Kelly's Heroes.) Most favorite line (possibly paraphrased) "Too much negative vibes here man...".[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 23 May 2005 at 12:57 PM.]

Mark Lind-Hanson · Post by **Mark Lind-Hanson** » 23 May 2005 1:59 pm

Well, back then there just weren't that many people who even PLAYED the instrument at ALL, you know? And anyone who COULD came off looking like a champ, even when they threw out things that people(nowadays)can point at & call clams. Yes, Bob it really IS a great song. It is the ESSENCE of the Gram Parsons type honky-blues, and it isn't even Parsons here.
The comments about Ray Price stuck to me to- I listened to a CD- I TRIED to listen to a CD- of his stuff, GreatestHits? Wouldn't you know it but EVERY SINGLE SONG starts out with this fiddle ("dern-dernt-dernt-der!") phrase- I skipped thorugh it track by track- and yes, even if this was somehow his "signature" way to kick off a tune, it was A-Class Boring for me. So much so, that I consigned "the Great Ray Price" to the aisles of music that won't ever inspire me.
Was it any wonder people like Parsons and Cody and Cage all headed into the Stoner Age of country rock? I don;t know. My usually open musical mind may have shown itself for its own prejudice, but, I happen to know what I LIKE...

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 23 May 2005 5:51 pm

Mark, if you wanna hear the greatest Ray Price in the world, and some of Big E's and Jimmy Day's greatest (longest living?) accomplishments, you gotta buy the Bear Family 10 CD set of Ray Price. It's gonna cost ya $225, but it's worth every cent!. In the past this set has been referred to here as the Bible of the E9th. A lifetime of learning Big E's little pads and fills that bring chills to the spine and hundreds of "howdhedodats". (One of the best revelations of secrets is Buddy's E9th Chord Vocabulary where, at the end, he takes you thru the chord progression of a tune, and calls out the minors and augmenteds that make the PSG sound so purty...).

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 23 May 2005 7:07 pm

I think my favorite EJL-ism in a while is:

Play these instruments with these tunings against any good guitar player, violin/fiddler, and add a piano, and you've got a bunch of people that are looking at eachother while these out of tune contraptions are "weaving their magic", shaking their heads, and then straightening up with a "fine with me" nod of approval when the steel player looks at them like dog that's dropped a newspaper on the porch...

I think I'd use that for a sig, but if too many of us start using EJLs material, he might start charging us...

You're wasting yourself on us, Eric, you should be writing poetry, or fiction, or philosophy or something that hasn't even gotten a label yet, you could name it yourself.

Happy Birthday, Eric.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 23 May 2005 8:34 pm

Thanks Jim... I love that penguin shot. It's as good as the one with the Orka eating the eskimo, or the guy smashing his puter.

Any of my nonsense can be passed on at any time.

That's probably why I have to realise that it might not be harmless after all..

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 May 2005 at 08:49 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 23 May 2005 9:33 pm

OK, I just had to go carefully listen to my old vinyl copy of "Lost in the Ozone" before I responded. Yes, the Creeper sounds quite pitchy in places, especially on the slow tunes where pitch is most critical. He also plays all over the place on these tunes - if he laid out or was mixed out more, this wouldn't have been as objectionable. But I disagree that there is a good center of pitch on some of these slow tunes. At times, fiddle and vocals are also quite pitchy on these, e.g., "Wine Do Yer Stuff". Also listen to the little piano intro on "What's the Matter Now". It is far from good pitch, it sounds like a cheap upright, out of tune piano to me. I think that all of this is just part of the package here. The guitar, bass, drums and sax are fairly solid, but everything else just seems to float at times.

I understand that some find this music hopelessly crude. But even with all this pitchiness, I still like this record. Yes, it does detract, but I don't think it negates the value of the package. The version of "Hot Rod Lincoln" here is still, IMO, the defining version. I think the steel pitchiness lends a lot to the out-of-kilter feel on that cut, and I've always emulated that when playing this tune (whether simulating the sirens/whines on guitar or doing them on steel). Perhaps it wasn't done intentionally, but who are we to say?

Let me finally say that I have listened to real old barrelhouse piano, early acoustic and electric blues, old-time hillbilly music, and the like for a long time. I'll guarantee you that much of it was a lot more pitchy than this. Out of tune pianos, guitars, banjos, fiddles, you name it. Further, the old 78 rpm records had plenty of pitch variation. Does this render all early music like this as garbage, not worthy of modern listeners? Does every piece of worthwhile music have to hold up to Carnegie Hall standards?

Don't get me wrong, I prefer well-produced and professional recordings with very high musical standards. And there are places on this record where I cringe. But I'm not throwing my copy in the trash. This is a reasonable period-piece, a record of the early efforts of some fine musicians like Lance Dickerson, Bruce Barlow, Bill Kirchen, and Cody himself.

Vern Wall · Post by **Vern Wall** » 23 May 2005 9:45 pm

Something I have noticed is that steel guitar players are performers, but not necessarily musicians. They talk endlessly about tunings and intonations, but the music is just a matter of "licks". Every other instrument has a vast pool of influence from various countries, styles, artists, and the sciences. Steel guitar has only the Hawaiian and western histories, and is only loosely influenced by electronics. Every other instrument has been the subject of intense study to determine the best materials, the best placement of parts, etc. The choice of materials for a steel guitar is not considered very important, just a matter of personal preference. And all the technology is fifty or more years old.

The steeler is like the drummer: a bit of a character in a world by himself. There is no standard sound for his instrument, every detail is a personal choice based on what he thinks sounds good, which depends very much on his personality and musical tastes. Every steel guitar is a custom instrument, suited only to the person playing it. One never hears of a classical musician playing steel guitar, or a steel guitar playing with an orchestra. There is no cross fertilization like there is for other instruments, no experimenting with borrowed themes, no display of talent in different styles. Steelers do not play L'Art Du Violon, although I have heard it on almost every other instrument.

Is there a future for this instrument? I think it will continue to be popular, even if only in a cultish way, as it is now. It will be played and listened to because some people like the music identified with it, whether blues, Hawaiian, western, or whatever. It will be played and listened to just because some people like its unique crying sound. And maybe some day some genius will take it into a new genre, as Segovia did for the acoustic guitar.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 23 May 2005 11:19 pm

Something I have noticed is that steel guitar players are performers, but not necessarily musicians. They talk endlessly about tunings and intonations, but the music is just a matter of "licks".

Nice blanket generalization!

This may be what you have experienced in your own little piece of the world, but it sure isn't what I've experienced in mine!

Sure it can apply to a certain percentage of musicians of any instrument. But to say "steel guitar players are...."

You've got nerve.

Not musicians? Lick Players?

I'll just forget the rest of what I'm thinking and leave it at this:

Speak for yourself.

Vern Wall · Post by **Vern Wall** » 23 May 2005 11:24 pm

Well Jim I'm sorry if I touched a nerve, but others have voiced similar concerns in this thread so I don't think I have said anything out of line.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 24 May 2005 1:50 am

Stu... Are you sure Jimmy Day played for Cody? I used to follow them pretty close in those days and I don't remember him playing with them. Of, course, there's a lot of things I don't remember about back then.

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 24 May 2005 2:03 am

Mr. Wall, because you clearly need to educate yourself before you embarrass yourself any further, buy and study the following CD's:

"Stravinsky: Firebird Suite" - Mike Perlowin
"Jazz by Jernigan" - Doug Jernigan
"3now4" - Dave Easley
"Calcutta Slide Guitar" - Debashish Bhattacharya

The first three are available here on the forum: http://steelguitarmusic.com/music.html, the last at any source like Amazon.com.

When you've come to an understanding of even a fraction of the geneses of the "licks" on these, you will have rendered yourself incapable of saying things like:

Every other instrument has a vast pool of influence from various countries, styles, artists, and the sciences. Steel guitar has only the Hawaiian and western histories, and is only loosely influenced by electronics.

One never hears of a classical musician playing steel guitar, or a steel guitar playing with an orchestra. There is no cross fertilization like there is for other instruments, no experimenting with borrowed themes, no display of talent in different styles.

There's plenty more examples to prove these ideas to be wrong; soon enough, you might be able to post intelligently without needing the disclaimer,

I am an average non-musician

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 May 2005 4:04 am

If you listen to Buddy Emmons Or Paul Franklin play calssical numbers, or Doug Jernigan and Buddy grab BeBop licks and run with them you will realize the two larger quotes above are way off the mark.

Yes there are a lot of steelers who like their particular nitch.

But that can easily be said for the majority of guitarists, piano players, fiddlers etc.
Far from all play in all generes available to their instruments.

I will personally try and cross polinate any style to another to at least see how it works together.
I knopw there are others here in the foru8m like that too.

Vern, you missed the mark with those comments.
Go buy Dave M.s list, then get back to us.
Also get Paul Franklins 2 cd solo album.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 24 May 2005 5:10 am

What, discension in the ranks? I guess that's what this forum is for.

Perhaps Vern is pointing to the fact that the pedal steel, in its relative infancy, lacks the backlog of repertoire from which to draw that piano and lute have.
Steel players are a breed apart; most musicians in a contemporary ensemble have some understanding of the other instruments with the exception of the steel. Thus the steeler is out there on his own, to an extent.

Give it another 50 years and see what develops. The music will evolve. Steel is not a flash in the pan.

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 24 May 2005 7:30 am

The Vernster speaks heap big truth!
In fact it’s probably one of the most well-thought and written posts I’ve seen here in a long time (if he develops a sense of humor Eric may have to step down).

His observations are given legitimacy by the very examples offered as refutation. To point up the same tired arguments from Firebird to Jernigan is tantamount to admitting defeat. I’m not dissing those efforts BTW.

If he needs his thingy thwacked, it’s because he’s drifting off topic.
And that “crying sound” he referred to was likely me listening to that BAAAD steel playing.

And the poor defenses offered about ‘everybody being out and there being no center of pitch’ is a red herring. Just listen to “Cover Of The Rolling Stone” by Doctor Hook. I’ve read that this may have been one of the most drug-crazed recordings in music history and you can sure tell but the music is fine. Everything’s in tune.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 May 2005 7:50 am

Doug's version of Anthropology is neither tired nor defeated.

Vern Wall · Post by **Vern Wall** » 24 May 2005 7:50 am

Mr. Mason,

Thank you for the advice, and I will get those CDs.

After mulling this over, I see that I was in fact out of line to post such a strongly worded opinion while I'm still the new guy on the board. And, as you so adroitly pointed out, I don't have any experience in the subject. I ask you all to forgive my lapse of manners.

I realize now that I was feeling nervous when I composed that. You see, it's not the first time I have run across this topic on this and other forums. There seems to be some sort of collective guilty conscience, to the effect that "nobody loves our instrument and it's all our fault". A magazine I read recently blamed players for allowing the instrument to be associated mostly with certain annoying types of music. This makes me wonder if I have selected the wrong instrument to learn. Assuming I want some appreciation, which I do, should I look for something more socially acceptable?

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 24 May 2005 7:54 am

Yeah, try accordian or tuba.

This is part and parcel of the problem (although nothing could've helped in the case of the thread's subject).[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 24 May 2005 at 08:55 AM.]

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 24 May 2005 7:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...quote, "I played a lot better when I was stoned"....unquote...
The above is true ONLY if you don't listen to the playback the next day!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm tempted to go with Gene on this when considering the issue in general. However, and that's an observation that I have done myself, not on steel yet, but on bass and guitar.
If you, like all of us will have tried at some occasions, find yourself in an environment where the sound/mix REALLY stinks (for whatever reason), it's much easier to feel good about what you're doing when your own impression is somehow sweetened by a couple 'a reefers.

When you enjoy the sound as at least acceptable even when it in reality stinks, your motivation will rise, enabling to play much better than you would have done when subjected to the sonic havoc clean. Because of that you will feel much better, play better, make a more relaxed impression on the audience etc., which in turn will divert the audiences focus on the audible impression of the concert.

Just my two cents here. I'm not in the habit of playing intoxicated on a regular basis.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

[This message was edited by Klaus Caprani on 24 May 2005 at 08:57 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 24 May 2005 9:19 am

Vern, I don't think there is anything out of line about your post, even though I disagree with its main premise, which is that steel players aren't really 'musicians'. For example, this statement:

"There is no standard sound for his instrument, every detail is a personal choice based on what he thinks sounds good, which depends very much on his personality and musical tastes. Every steel guitar is a custom instrument, suited only to the person playing it."

could be made as well about electric guitar also. I don't think it's really true about either. There are more-or-less standard setups on both, but there is a very large variation in the pallette of both steel and electric guitar sounds, depending on the choice of guitar, pickups, effects, amp, tuning/setup, and playing approach/technique. The difference is that non-amplified guitar is a much older instrument with a longer history to be drawn from, whereas pedal steel really is newer and there are a lot more "technical issues" with it. The player operates it through a mechanism which provides advantages, but also has limitations. Every instrument has both advantages and limitations. To me, being a 'musician' means learning how to extract the advantages and work around the limitations, as much as possible.

Marty, I'm not saying that Creeper's out-of-pitchness was caused by others' tuning issues, just that it's hardly the only tuning issue there. I agree that the pitch issues on the slow tunes also make me cringe at times and detract from them. But I do somewhat take issue with your original blanket statement:

"Almost everything I've heard from that genre/era SUX!"

Maybe you've only heard the bad stuff. IMO, the steel playing of Sneaky Pete and Al Perkins with FBB is generally fine, pitch-wise. Frankly, the most serious pitch issues with that band (and there are some) lie elsewhere, IMO. I'm not saying anybody should like or dislike this stuff. But people who like it should be expected to take sharp issue with such blanket dissing.

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 24 May 2005 9:38 am

Sometimes the truth hurts,so I feel certain that Commander Cody cried and sobbed all the way to the bank. This thread could lead to another tangent... what if the steel player is the only member of the band who is IN TUNE? Does that mean that he is really out?? Dave Gardner once said,"If the whole world is wrong,then right your own self,beloved!"
Frought for thought.
~~W.C.~~

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 24 May 2005 9:59 am

Vern no problem ; extrapolate from your base of knowlege all you want,
That way you will likely then discover new information
to mofify your opinions... possibly.

Marty is one to stirr the pot for that sake alone.
But i haven't heard him post any clips to prove HE is doing something to add to the steels inlfuences...
Step up and be counted dude.
or forever moan into the darkness.

Cage and Klienow did some killer stuff back in those days in that genere.

I think Marty didn''t LIKE those days
maybe felt left out, or NEVER wanted to be included... who knows. Hypotheticals..

In any case as in any genre at any time there are some gems,
and some clams often on the same albums from the same people.

Sometimes the gems make the OTHER cuts come back into blurry focus decades later,
and subject to 20/20 hindsight.

It's SOOOO much easier to look back and say...
hey that wasn't as good as today.
or that best of breed performance on another session...
When we wasn't there under THOSE conditions
to do the work....

Most CLASSIC recorded performances were cases where they GOT LUCKY that night,
even when the general level was quite high anyway.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 24 May 2005 at 11:03 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 24 May 2005 11:07 am