Trouble w/ chops on two instuments??

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 9 May 2005 4:11 am

I have my steel chops up lately.. from merely excellent

up to ferocious!

.. Throughout my lifetime of playing guitar and steel, I have found it VERY difficult to keep the chops level "up" on both at the same time..

Invariably, if I work out a lot on steel, the guitar chops suffer BIG time..and the opposite is true also.

For many years I have bee working with one of central NY's best known and best paid bands, BUT I was a rock lead guitarist/singer.... only about 4 songs a night on steel, none of them really country.

My guitar and vocal chops were up to a satisfactory level, but my steel playing sucked lemons. Now that I have left the band [for a plethora of reasons, many of them moral]I have been working hard on steel to where I am pretty happy with my steel playing,but a guitar now feels like a club with a spike in it. Who KNOWS about my vocal chops??...They may be non existent by now. I'll bet my voice sounds like a possum/18 wheeler interaction.

Just wondering if anyone else has a similar problem.. I have dealt with this as long as I have been a musician, and it aggravates me. Just seem to struggle keeping chops at a good level on both my instruments.
Played banjo years ago, but then Everything went to hell chops wise and I sold it to concentrate on just 2 instruments.. It seems I am not one of those guys that can pick up any stringed instrument and wail... I need to work on them one at a time.Anyone else notice this?? bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 09 May 2005 at 05:34 AM.]

Glyn Bone · Post by **Glyn Bone** » 9 May 2005 5:01 am

Hi Bob,
Have you tried playing them seperately ? you might just find it easier that way !!

Glyndwr

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 9 May 2005 5:54 am

Chops?

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 9 May 2005 6:23 am

Charlie.. I take the "chops?" reply to mean that you may be unfamiliar with the term as it relates to musicians.. It is a slang term really... Many guitarists call thier instrument thier"axe"... I do. When you have good "chops" it just means you are adept at utilizing your "axe".. bob

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 9 May 2005 6:41 am

Bob I have the same trouble. Except I'm a relative rookie on both. But which ever guitar I spend the most time with definately sounds better. Lately I've been working on steel almost exclusively and now by lead playing has bit the dust. Guess thats just the way it is.

Rick

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 9 May 2005 6:52 am

I don't have any trouble with being a multi-instrumentalist. Maybe I'm just lucky, different brains function different ways.

Maybe it's because I look at my different instruments (PSG, Guitar, Mando, Keys, Reso)in terms of music theory, not just licks. Playing different instruments has actually helped my understanding of the others.

Of course if an instrument has not been played for a while, due to me working with another, my chops become rusty. A half hour of playing scales on it refreshes the reflexes.

I do find it necessary to have the same pedal/KL setup on my different Steels.
This fact makes me believe that "brain memory" and "muscle memory" behave very different. [This message was edited by Joey Ace on 09 May 2005 at 10:37 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 9 May 2005 6:59 am

I find that playing guitar with frets, my intonation suffers slightly on steel. I suppose it's that way for mandolin/fiddle, but playing both all the time would probably even it ot some.

EJL

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 May 2005 7:17 am

I play guitar, banjo and steel also. I do notice the same problem, but I've been playing guitar so long (late 60s) that guitar chops don't suffer as much and come back more quickly. I'm playing steel most all the time the last year or two, but the banjo takes the hit a lot. Add to that the fact that the bluegrass stuff is pretty fast, so it takes a while to bring it back to a reasonable level.

At this point, I'm using all three in the band I'm in, so I just have to take the banjo out a couple of times a week. Probably not gonna develop a lot like that, but at least I can tread water. It doesn't take a lot, maybe just a half hour twice a week. What I'm really working on is steel, and keep one set up all the time at home, another packed away for gigs.

I also thought about dumping banjo as a distraction, but I really like the flowing bluegrass stuff, and nothing else really gives that feel. And, frankly, I think I owe my having the guts to start steel on already having developed the basic fingerpicking skills on banjo. I think they go pretty well together as a skill set.

Tom Stolaski · Post by **Tom Stolaski** » 9 May 2005 8:11 am

The good thing about playing more than one instrument is that it is posible to transpose ideas from one instrument to another. Playing a little piano and bass in the old days has helped my steel playing. Guitar and banjo has also helped. I spend a little time on many instruments to get ideas for the "main instrument" - my pedal steel guitar.

Adrienne Clasky · Post by **Adrienne Clasky** » 9 May 2005 8:32 am

Maybe giving away your Carter would be the solution. (Hey, I'm trying to be helpful!)

Seriously, I've heard Jerry Garcia stopped playing steel because he said it hurt his guitar playing. Of course, people around the forum say he never could play steel, so I suppose he made the right choice. For me, piano helps steel playing, but I can really see how guitar would conflict. They are so similar I'd imagine your muscle memory would become confused.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 May 2005 8:47 am

Tom, I think you're right about each instrument helping the others, mentally. Certain things are easier on each instrument, which sort of channels me in that direction for a while. But once a sound gets planted in my head, I look for ways to do it on the other instruments. They might not be so obvious, but they're often there.

For me, this is also a great 'rut-buster' - just switch instruments for a while to get some fresh ideas. I think the physical differences can be overcome.

Another thing - I can't play sax, but I often listen to sax players for melodic ideas. I think, overall, sax players have that developed more widely than others. I also listen heavily to piano players for harmonic ideas - again I think the really good pianists have the most developed sense there. This is about getting musical ideas and figuring out how to translate them to the fingers.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 9 May 2005 9:02 am

When I was playing in clubs 4-6 nights a week playing a about a 60/40 guitar to steel ratio,PLUS practicing at LEAST once a week with my band,this was not a big problem.. I was able to maintain a satisfactory "heat" level on both guitar and steel.. It is much more of a problem today when I am not playing near as much... Its getting to be kind of a drag sitting at home not playing... the chops are headin' south

bob

Graham Griffith · Post by **Graham Griffith** » 9 May 2005 11:19 am

A recent hernia operation threw me onto dobro for obvious reasons. This lifted the ante incredibly as it was at least two gigs per week. Also it was on my ten stringer tuned to Eharp tuning (which is radically different to PSG). I now feel like I can call myself an Eharp player whereas before it was always easier to just play PSG. I now split the gigs and play exclusively on one or the other ... no swapping during the gig.

I'm still not up the PSG chops but I'll get there. Also ... what a joy ... playing-wise and not having to cart an amp or PSG!!!

Graham

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 9 May 2005 12:21 pm

I've doubled on guitar and steel since about 73, and threw in the fiddle too in '80. Depending on the band, I might play almost all guitar and a few on steel & fiddle, or almost all steel with a little guitar or fiddle, any imaginable combination. For a year or so I played only fiddle 5 nights a week.

What I've noticed is basically the same as Bob says, whatever I play most of improves and the others suffer, at least until I've played them a while. Even in bands where I played pretty much 50/50 guitar and steel, then I felt like I was equally awkward on both, never quite warming up on them. If I played a whole set on guitar, then when I'd switch to steel I'd feel out of it until playing a set or close to it on it.

For a few years I played 95% steel and only a couple on regular guitar, and then my steel playing advanced in leaps and bounds, and I found my guitar playing lost a lot, but I didn't care too much since I was real into the steel and felt "everybody plays guitar anyway" and I found that the guitar ability came back quickly.

I still have the same situation, if I play 4 or 5 songs on either one then switch, I feel "cold" on the other until I've done several songs to warm up.

The only guy I've ever seen who switches back and forth with seemingly no effort or being "cold" on either one is Buzz Evans.

In about '85 I stopped playing steel and fiddle to concentrate on guitar, I even sold my steel. I thought I should concentrate on the one that I was most likely be the best on, instead of spreading myself thin on 3 instruments and not gaining much on any of them. I think it may have helped me advance on the guitar, but it sure didn't do much good for my steel playing.

After 13 years, and then getting back into steel, I've found that I've lost a lot of right-hand picking dexterity, and in fact lost the ability I had to play "on automatic", where I didn't have to think what I was going to do or where it was on the steel. I still haven't recovered that. I have found that I've gained in some other areas such as taste, but I lament having lost some of the other skills on steel.

It seems that the best way to avoid being rusty on either one is to just keep practicing them both.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 9 May 2005 12:45 pm

I play a few instruments for a living. I always look at my calender and see what I have to play that night or in the next few days. I will spend maybe an hour or so practicing what the job calls for and NOT just practicing the instrument. I don't have any problems going between them. Also I always get to the gig early and do some warm up stuff there. Seems to only take 30 or 40 mins. to get the instrument under my skin again. Another thing I do is to keep a check on the different instruments. Don't ever think you can close a case on a guitar or bass or harmonica or whatever and just go to the gig and whip it out and play it. I will check them out a day ahead of time to make sure the action is right, strings are decent, everything plays OK. Don't like to get to the gig and find a surprise.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 9 May 2005 2:50 pm

Bob, my experience has been way different. Since taking up steel a year and a half ago, I rarely touch my Tele at home. I try to practice steel every day. My 6 string playing has gotten better all this last year, a result I think of the brain connecting everything together. My steel progress has ben slow(welcome to the club!), but steady. Playing both has helped both. JimP

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 9 May 2005 6:21 pm

Laying off for a year or so my chops have become thumps. How did I get this rubber hammer in my hand?

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 9 May 2005 8:13 pm

Maybe I was looking at this question the wrong way.

Bill, if I understand you correctly it sounds like you're talking about a job that calls for playing one instrument and you work on that instrument for that gig.... I was thinking of the question of playing more than one instrument at the same gig. I guess this question could mean either way.

If I know what instrument I'm going to play, I do as Bill said and concentrate on that instrument for that gig, if it's more than one instrument I work on the material for whatever the instruments are, if I have the benefit of knowing what the material will be. There have been many times I was called at the last minute to fill-in for someone and I didn't know which songs they'd play at all, let alone which instrument I'd play them on, until I got there.

Still, I'm better at playing only one instrument per gig. When I play more than one, the switching back and forth doesn't let me warm-up as well as if I only play one, or at least several songs on each one before switching. It's switching every song or two that really is tough (for me).[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 09 May 2005 at 09:31 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 9 May 2005 8:25 pm

I interpreted the original question as playing more than one instrument at all, not just during the same gig. But that's a good point - for me, it is tougher switching during a gig - especially going from steel/banjo (thumbpick + fingerpicks) to guitar (flatpick + fingerpicks). I need to warm up on all 3 before the gig, but I usually feel 'all-thumbs' for a minute when I switch to/from guitar anyway. The physical motion is very different. Yes, it's tough switching every song or two, but I've had to do that lots.

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 9 May 2005 9:30 pm

I remember seeing Gary Morse play with Yoakam several years back. If I remember correctly, I saw him play Pedal, lap steel, dobro, banjo, and guitar all in one show. He mostly focused on pedal steel, but still. Sheesh. Does that mean he was getting paid 5 times scale for that gig?

I'm doing just fine myself with steel and bass. The learning curves for both instruments are very steep for me still, so I'm getting new stuff every day. For me, learning steel is more of a series of leaps rather than a smooth, gradual thing. Something will just click in my head and I'll wonder to myself, "Why couldn't I play that yesterday?"

I'll agree with Joey. They're all just notes. Finding out how to make them work, instead of just learning licks, has helped me immensely.

-MG

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 9 May 2005 11:01 pm

I find it is not mental muscle memory,
but not using certain musles is the issue.
Use it or lose it applies.

I play upright bass and electric bass,
but they use very different muscle groups,
while some are the same, I don't just jump from one to the other as fast as some might assume.. even if they are BOTH basses.

I play mandolin and upright bass alternately some gigs...
After playing the giant bass for and hour, I still get amazed that my hand goes pear shaped from that little mandolin in one tune.
Again differnt muscles that had not been warmed up earlier.

Switching to an acoustic guitar for a manouche tune from the upright ,
is also problematic some nights.

Electric bass to guitar is not as bad, but chords still use much different muscles.Easier to play guitar and then pick up the electric bass.

There is no other instrument played 1st that prepares you to play the upright bass.
2 hours of jazz on acoustic guitar... pick up the bass. AUUGHHH! It's like starting form scratch.

My next to last multi instrument night in Thailand was tele, elec bass, and then drums.
Not too painfull, but the drums had been awhile.

The last night was 19" lapsteel, fretless electric bass, back and forth.
Very different mindset and technique.

But that night got me hired for electric 6 string bass,
doubling on PSG and mandolin for the next year+,

so I gues the small problems I saw for technique during the switchs was not an issue for the listeners.

I think a regular warm up regime should have a cycle of your instruments.
50% on your main gigging tool
then a decent interval depending on difficulty on the others.
The more difficult, gets a bit more time.

When you have more time, then give each a regular search for problems time.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 10 May 2005 1:02 am

I agree that you need to warm up specific muscle & brain groups to play specific instruments, and I certainly lose some of the "autopilot" skills I have/had on electric guitar when I don't play it for at least 45 minutes to an hour every day. Since I have yet to develop that feeling on steel I would assume (hope?) that it's the same.

BUT: I think that if I hadn't been playing guitar and slide for 30+ years I would have been totally lost when starting on steel, and I don't feel that way at all - learning to play guitar has at least taught me how to approach learning; AND, my guitar playing has improved in certain unexpected ways since I've been playing steel. I use my middle and ring fingers much more with the flatpick now, in a much less random way, and I am playing up and down the neck a lot more than I used to, instead of staying in a box or position. I'm coming to see how important this way of seeing the neck was to Hendrix and Mark Knopfler, and how Jeff Beck, Billy Gibbons and Steve Morse (among others) used this to create the effect of "trading licks" with themselves.

I have to think it's like anything else, you get good and stay good at what you put your time into. I've been accumulating some recording gear the past year or so, but until I turn it on and open the manuals it just sits there. It's probably safe to say that the 80's heavy metal guitarists who were especially gifted at cool stage moves and "guitar face" spent a lot of time in front of the mirror.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 May 2005 2:19 am

I too play a few different Instruments and for decades doubled on Steel and Tele. Like many here I never really thought about any CHOPS issues, until I joined the band I am currently with. Then the chops issues showed it's ugly face. Does stuck in a BOX come to mind ?

I found my Steel chops didn't really match the level of the band..now that was an issue..for me personally.

I put down the Tele' 6 or 8 months ago and have been basically spending all my time on Steel in an attempt to turn up the wick.

I have found that in order to turn up the wick and move beyond the level you are at, you may need to concentrate on ONE Instrument and burn the oil in that camp only for a while....

This has been good for me..

I am way more natural on the 6 string as that is the Intrument I have been playing for over 40 years.. hopefully in the next 40 years I can reach that same level of comfort on the Steel !

remember that old phrase

jack of all trades, master of none..
only we can decide it apply's to us personally..

In business it's very easy to get to 85% good efficiency, a bit harder to get to 90% , real difficult to get to 95% and virtually impossible to get to 100% ...

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 May 2005 at 05:55 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 10 May 2005 5:08 am

Bob,
No, chops is a familiar word; I've been playing piano, bass, guitar, and some lap steel for decades. As I use these only for recording at home (I'm now firmly a professional amateur), it's a question of working one instrument at a time, having to recall any chops I ever had to lay down a part, then switch. As many recount, multi-instrumentalism is a balancing act. Thus my favorite phrase (that I should have completed) is: Chops? Who needs them?
(Until I listen to Mark Knopfler....)
Charlie

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 10 May 2005 5:13 am

I must add, responding to Joey Ace' reply: as a trained bodyworker, I can say there is such a thing as muscle memory (loss of muscle function being called 'sensory-motor amnesia'). The two work together, of course, but muscle memory is a fact. The brain can forget, the fingers can forget.

The mystery is, concerning chops, which one governs one's ability to play fluently?