Gibsons for Hawaiian style

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 24 Jul 2005 8:01 am

Through pictures over the years, I've seen Hawaiian steel guitarists use Magnatones, Fenders, and Richenbachers, mostly. I wonder if Gibson Console Grands were ever popular among Hawaiian players...meaning, did it give "that Hawaiian sound" we always talk about, to the ear of Hawaiian players?

I see the Console Grands more in pics with country style players. Was there a reason for this, or did it just end up that way?

Thanks for any input!

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 24 Jul 2005 10:58 am

Jeff, most of us hawa players of that era could not afford a congrand. CC

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 24 Jul 2005 5:13 pm

...were (Gibson steels) ever popular among Hawaiian players...meaning, did it give "that Hawaiian sound" we always talk about, to the ear of Hawaiian players?

Jeff, I think it is safe to say that Gibsons were never popular among Hawaiian steel players.

When I lived in Hawaii 1961-1975, Ricenbackers were the most popular among the non-professional locals, followed by the Fenders. However, among the professionals steel players, Fenders were more prevalent.

In twenty years of going to Hawaiian Steel guitar conventions (more than 55 conventions), I did not see that many Gibsons played. Why? I do not know. I have seen quite a few Gibsons for sale at these conventions. Why? I do not know.

I do not believe that it is the instrument per se, because the person's that I have heard playing Gibson's certainly had a Hawaii style and made it sound Hawaiian.

I would like to hear some of our Hawaiian SGF buddies opinions about this? Derrick and Jeff, where are you?

I believe that this is an interesting question.

Aloha,
Don[This message was edited by Don Kona Woods on 24 July 2005 at 06:14 PM.]

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 24 Jul 2005 7:34 pm

Ron Simpson has a big collection of Gibson steels (EH series). He has always gotten a nice Hawaiian sound out of them.

Although he was playing a Bakelite Rick at last week's Aloha Int'l convention.

Ron?

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 24 July 2005 at 08:35 PM.]

Derrick Mau · Post by **Derrick Mau** » 25 Jul 2005 2:41 am

Here's Arthur Kaua with a Gibson console.

Don, you'd be hard pressed to find any Gibson steels for sale here in Hawaii, especially the consoles. I've seen a couple of EH-150's at one shop only because a collector had deceided to part with some of his collection, other than that, they are rarely seen.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 25 Jul 2005 8:52 am

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 25 Jul 2005 11:16 am

Derrick,

Do you think they are rarely seen because they are highly coveted, or not all that popular among Hawaiian musicians?

I've have a Bunny Brown album with Arthur Kaua playing one and it sounds good to me. It just dawned on me that I never see Gibsons in the pics of Hawaiian players and wondered if there was a reason or just coincidence.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 25 Jul 2005 12:34 pm

In the 30s amd 40s at least Gibson dealers in the northern Indiana area were like Studebaker dealers. They would'nt trade. They had a price and that was it.It was often said of Stude dealers that they had rather sell one car and make $1000 than sell ten and make $100 each. CC

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 25 Jul 2005 1:08 pm

Derrick,

Thanks for your picture post. Very interesting.

That picture was taken a long time ago. I would say in the 1940's. Would that be correct or what years did Kaua play. The only electrical instrument is the Hawaiian steel. It seems like I have seen his name on certain old Hawaiian arrangements or is that another Kaua?

In the steel guitar conventions, I can remember only 2 Gibson consoles being sold. Most of the Gibsons I saw were single necks - 6, 8, etc strings.

I probably have heard Art Kaua play, but can't remember it or his style. I like to hear alot of these old timers play that authentic old Hawaiian style.

Aloha for now,
Don[This message was edited by Don Kona Woods on 25 July 2005 at 02:09 PM.]

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 25 Jul 2005 2:24 pm

Bunny Brown and Arthur were playing in 1978 at a hotel in Hilo. I can't remember the name. Arthur was playing the Gibson and Shot had just given him a s10 sho bud 5x4 and he asked me what to do with it. I showed him some things but I think he was totally unimpressed w/pedals. I think this was the same yr that Shot and his gang played bluegrass on Waikiki beach and drew a huge crowd. He had given David Kekii and one or two others shobuds but I went to Hawaii for about 15 straight yrs and never saw them being used. I was told by an old friend I was visiting in Waianae that Davids widow who lived in Waianae had the Bud. I could never catch her at home however. CC

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 25 Jul 2005 3:35 pm

I found some pics of 4 different Gibson D-8s, and thought I'd post them here for everyone's enjoyment. Hopefully, someone can comment on any differences in tone between them. Since they are all different models and made at different times, I'm sure they probably have their own sound, similar to how the Fender Stringmasters vary from the Dual Pro and Custom.

I'm using Gruhn's Guide to Vintage Guitars as my reference, so I hope I've pinned these correctly. You'll have to click the links to see the pics. Otherwise, I would have had to resize them smaller to fit the thread and it could have cut down the detail.

Here's the first photo. pic1The pic titled this one as a 1938 model, but according to the guide, Console Grands weren't introduced until 1939. This one has the bound Rosewood fingerboards with V ends, and Charlie Christian pickups.

In 1948, this style came along. pic2 But I think this one is probably a 1953 or later model (4 legs came out around 1953, and this one has 4 legs). They were discontinued by 1967.

Next is a "Consolette" (mde of African Korina wood). pic3 It looks like this model was only around for a short period (1952-1957). They had whiete P-90 PickUps. From the guide, a Console C 530 appeared in about the time this one phased out, which was similar except for the wood and pickups.

Lastly is the CG 520, with a 4-8-4 pick up pole configuration. pic4 It has a 4 way tone selector switch which I have a close up of. pic5 I like the black fretboard and the way the tuners were arranged. The model was introduced in 1956 and discontinued by 1967. I'm most curious to hear this one. It looks the coolest (IMHO). (Although, I've learned from a few bad girlfriend experiences that looks aren't everything!

).

Anyone have any experiences comparing any of these models?

Thanks for any contributions to the thread!

Derrick Mau · Post by **Derrick Mau** » 25 Jul 2005 3:59 pm

Don,
There is no date on the vinyl album with Arthur's picture. I'm pretty sure that most of their recordings were done from the early to mid 60's.

Jeff,
Since there was no computers or E-Bay to buy items from the mainland back then, the local musicians in Hawaii were limited to what the local music dealers stocked. And since Fender's and Rickenbackers were the popular brands; that's what the music stores carried.

Ron Simpson · Post by **Ron Simpson** » 25 Jul 2005 9:19 pm

Aloha,

This is a very interesting topic which has puzzled me for quite some time. The post from CC about list price for the guitars rang a bell about a recent article about current restrictions Gibson has put in place regarding catalog sales. "The Gibson Story" by Julius Belson does make mention of dealer territory restrictions during the early years, and that their purchase of Epiphone in '57 allowed them to get around this. A similar stance on pricing could certainly be a factor.
A look at the steel guitars offered by Gibson from 1935 until production ceased in the late 60s suggests that it took a while to finalize their design. First came the aluminum bodied model in '35. The EH-150/100 came next in '36 with hollow maple bodies with separate top, back, sides and neck. 1939 saw the introduction of the EH-185/275 models still with hollow bodies and a metal substructure that formed the headstock and continued to the bridge mounting plate. I speculate that this was an effort to improve sustain. The real winner for 1939 in my estimation was the low priced EH-125. This guitar was made from solid mahogony from headstock to tail, and combines the warmth of fine wood with the sustain needed for a slow Hawaiian song. This design was revisited in the postwar BR-6 and BR-4. The fashionable fifties saw a slew of new models in a variety of colors that rivaled the auto industry. It seems that most of these two toned instruments were constructed of Michigan maple, and have a brighter sound to them. The exceptions are the Korina bodied Skylark, a mid 50s Ultratone in mahagony and the last new steel guitar design introduced by Gibson in the 1966 catalog, the second version of the Century model also of mahagony.
Of course none of this really answers the question of why we don't see Gibsons being used by many or any early Hawaiian groups. Perhaps the answer lies in the cutting edge technology of the Rickenbacher frypan or even the National Tri-Cone. All we can do at this point is speculate.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 26 Jul 2005 2:48 am

In my post above I mispelled Davids last name should be kelii. I have 3 lps by Bunny and Arthur, the latest cut in 1977. cc

Blake Hawkins · Post by **Blake Hawkins** » 26 Jul 2005 5:51 am

Jeff,
I currently play a Gibson CG-520. Mine has the 4-8-4 pickups but not the two switches shown in your picture.

The pickup is a humbucker and has a very complex switching arrangement.

I was disappointed in the tone when I first got it, but with some adjustments on my Peavey Nashville 400 it works OK. I also use a 1953 Fender Deluxe amp with it.

Three of the 4 tone switch positions are largely useless. The only full range position is "Chime." The "Normal" position gives a sound like early Noel Boggs recordings.
This guitar is mostly used for Western Swing and Country.
I have A6 on the bottom and E13 (with highG#)
on the top.
If you would like an in depth discussion of the CG-520, e mail me and I'll supply additional details rather than take up space here.
In the Gibson steels I have played over the years I have seen large variations in the tone even between instruments of the same model.
A few years ago, I was at the ISGC and early in the morning I passed by Freeman Cowgar's booth. He had a Gibson Ultratone that he'd obtained for a collector friend and asked me to play it. I was wiped out by the sound.
It was one of the best steels I'd heard
but it wasn't for sale.
Later in the year, I saw an Ultratone for sale over in Cape Canaveral and went over to purchase it. What a surprise! When I played it the sound wasn't even close to the other.
Needless to say, I didn't take it.

Blake

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 26 Jul 2005 10:02 am

C.C.,

Can we hear a couple of cuts from the LP album with Art and Bunny? Perhaps earlier version and then the l977 version.

Aloha,
Don

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 26 Jul 2005 10:11 am

Don I sure wish I had some smart so I could post it for all of you. If someone with smart volunteers to post I can send them a cassette pronto. CC

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 26 Jul 2005 1:01 pm

Here's a cut from a 1970 album of Bunny Brown's Hilo Hawaiians. It's Lehua Records SLCD 7004. Arthur Kaua is playing steel.

A'Oia

Bill Creller · Post by **Bill Creller** » 26 Jul 2005 6:23 pm

That was a nice cut Jeff. I like the sound of his guitar too. He seemed to be a very good musician.

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 26 Jul 2005 9:49 pm

Thanks Jeff for the nice recording. I am supposing that Art is playing the Gibson console in this recording.

That is some good talent down there in Hilo but they were unfamiliar to me. But as John Auna from the Big Isle often said about the players there, "We are all out in the bushes."

Are there any examples of earlier recordings by Art Kaua?

Derrick, can you identify the players in the photo beside Art Kaua?

Aloha,
Don

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 26 Jul 2005 11:17 pm

I have 2 other LPs with the Hilo Hawaiians that I'll dig out tomorrow. One is from their "early" years.

Derrick can correct me if I'm wrong, but in his photo from left to right, there's Bunny Brown (g), Kihei Brown (u), Arthur Kaua (sg), Buddy Brown (u), and Mona Kalima (b).

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 10 Sep 2005 6:43 pm

Don, I finally got these up...Sorry for the delay...

The first one is from the album "Honeymoon in Hawaii", their first record, from the days of the picture that Derrick posted above. I would estimate mid to late 60s.

Hilo Hawaiians - Aloha Oe

The second one is from the album "Dreams of Old Hawaii", when they were called the Waiakea Hawaiians, playing at the Waiakea Resort Village. Bunny Brown and Arthur Kaua are the only same "original" members. The song is the beautiful hymn, Kanaka Wai Wai.

Waiakea Hawaiians [This message was edited by Jeff Strouse on 10 September 2005 at 07:44 PM.]

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 10 Sep 2005 10:56 pm

Thanks Jeff,
Better late than never. IMO

Hawaiian music is always pleasant.
The Waiakea Hawaiians had a good blend.

Thanks again for putting the two pieces on.

Aloha,
Don

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 11 Sep 2005 2:18 am

Hey there "C.C. Johnson".......... Apparently GIBSON is today, what it was back in the days of Studebaker, if you can beleive that.
I just purchased $146.00 worth of Gibson guitar strings (in borken sets) from a music store in San Antonio. It's understand that in this day and age, GIBSON will not sell their "strings" to a music store UNLESS they stock a long line of Gibson guitars and/or Gibson products.
It must be great to be THAT INDEPENDENT!!

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 11 Sep 2005 4:59 am

Ry Cooder recorded a version of 'Kanaka Wai Wai' on his 1976 LP 'Chicken Skin Music'. He did it in a medley with the Blind Alfred Reed song 'Always Lift Him Up'.

Here is the tune (middle section only).

Kanaka Wai Wai

Chicken Skin Music is one of Ry's best albums IMHO. This is the album that has Gabbby Pahinui and Atta Isaacs on the two cuts, Yellow Roses and Chloe. These two tunes inspired a new generation of haole baby boomer steel guitarists. I know it did me!

------------------
Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

CEO, CIO, CFO - UkeTone Records
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
Board of Directors Hawaiian Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 11 September 2005 at 06:00 AM.]