Is YOUR PLAYING predictable?

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 29 Jul 2004 3:02 pm

Me too.

EJL

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 29 Jul 2004 7:30 pm

I have a Lap Steel that I like to play some Hawiian style on.
I like to try to play Jerry Byrd's work note for note, or take a shot at stringing together Jerry Byrd quotes, to make intro's, fills, solo's, and endings.
Sometimes I mess up though, and I've gotten in the bad habit of making a significantly audible groan that alerts the audience and band members that I've just made a "No-No"

.
If someone tells me to "Take it again", I just try to string the JB quotes together in a different order, untill I mess up again.
Since reading this thread, I'm thinking maybe I should devote some time to trying to create some "new stuff". Maybe all this "Idle Worship" will only get me so far, and someday I'll have to come up with an original idea.
Naaaahhh.
It works with all the pedal licks I play... Why change now?!

I like to put the bass on 10 and the treble on 2, to get that moan that only one brand has.

I hope to play on the Opry someday!
Who wouldn't!

Disclaimer:
Any similarity to local steel men living or dead is purely coincidental.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 29 Jul 2004 9:55 pm

Tommy Roten · Post by **Tommy Roten** » 30 Jul 2004 5:20 am

When I sit at home practising, I come up with new licks that sound cool, but as soon as I get up on stage with my band, I fall back on the same licks that I've played on 200 gigs before. But when I get home, they come again...

<a href="http://www.tommy-steel.com"<www.tommy-steel.com</a>

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 30 Jul 2004 7:05 am

Probably the only thing predictable about my playing is that I'll show, set, and be tuned up 30 minutes before 'showtime'. I try to keep the kick offs about the same, but sometimes I'll vary them according to what I feel. The lead rides are mine, and I play what I feel. However I try to keep the turnarounds the same, for the singer's benefit, and the tags are ususally from perhaps 15 or 20 standards that I use. Playing with a band as long as I have with this one, however, does not present a problem because the guys usually know what I'm gonna' do, and they make it 'fit'. I was taught to play what the music says to me and I do just that. Of course when recording I have to put a lot of it in the glove box and go with what the folks paying the bills want. Love it, good thread.

fred

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 30 Jul 2004 8:25 am

Great input guys.

Tommy Roten..diddo! that happens to me all he time. I worked on various bebop scales I think for a month, every day!. I do a gig once a week. It was as if I never practiced at all when I got to the gig for all that time. After a while a few notes creeped into my playing on the good nights. Every time I start a new project it seems like I swallowed some dynimite blew myself apart musically then slowly gather the pieces back together. I guess that is why the process takes so long for something to sink in before making it your "own".

Gotta go to Australia this morning. I'll see if I can pick up this post in Sydney!

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 30 Jul 2004 10:27 am

Wayne, don't get lost

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 30 Jul 2004 11:03 pm

My playing is not in the least predictable, by design. If I'm bored with what I am playing, I might as well be writing software (it pays a lot better). This delights most of the bands I play with, and totally infuriates some. I was playing in a Hank Williams tribute band, and it drove them crazy that I wouldn't just play (or attempt to play) what was on the original record. So they got somebody else to do the gig, and we're all happy now.

Which brings me to a related topic. I know it drives me crazy when bands play (or attempt to play) the song exactly like the original. Frankly, I don't see the point in that. If you want to hear the original, stay home and listen to the record. Or if you are a singer and want this, just put some karaoke tracks together. If I hear a group of musicians playing a song, I want to hear what they bring to the table. For example, who would want to hear Ray Charles sing Hey Good Looking with the original arrangement?

One way I avoid playing cliches or licks is to play the lap steel. I don't know any licks on the lap steel, so I have to invent something on the spur of the moment.

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www.tyack.com

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 31 Jul 2004 12:59 am

For example, who would want to hear Ray Charles sing Hey Good Looking with the original arrangement?

I'd be up for that, though sadly it's not possible, as Ray got "on the bus" but you can bet the musicians he hired could have.

When did doing cover tunes become a sin? Or copping or repeating licks for that matter?

Do crowds turn up their noses when Merle's band does the stock intro tags to "Working Man" or Mamma Tried? I think not.

Would he hire a guy that couldn't play them?

You tell me..

Anger,

Envy,

Gluttony,

Greed,

Lust,

Pride,

and

Vanity.

(My personal favorite.)

Had a GREAT time tonight playing some really OLD cover tunes. Some of them we made up arrangements for to fit the instrumentation, and I tried to do as many tags and original fills as I could remember.

The guitar player and drummer did the true to life intro to "Stop the World and let me off" by bouncing an open A chord on a guitar with a drumstick like the original record( as relayed to me by Mr Brightman like they did in the original recording). I did the instrumental note for shrill plate-reverbed note. It somehow made me feel more alive and competent, if only for a fleeting moment..

If I remember right, it was kind of a challenge. Though not for everybody I suppose.

Now my son, go and sin no more..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 31 July 2004 at 02:01 AM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 31 Jul 2004 2:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Do crowds turn up their noses when Merle's band does the stock intro tags to "Working Man" or Mamma Tried? I think not.

Would he hire a guy that couldn't play them? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The answer is no, and no.

Which is the reason that, as much as I love Merle Haggard and his music, I would never take a gig with the man. Because the audience wants to hear the original parts, period. As shown by the fact that they applaud at the begining of the solo, rather than after it. And after I spent the first month or so getting the parts exactly right, I would be fighting them. And nobody plays well when you are fighting the music. I spent way too much time doing this kind of thing (playing the road and the opry with folks like Jean Sheppard, Dotty West, Donna Fargo, Charlie Louvin, etc) and it wasn't good for my playing.

Now I know a lot of fantastic musicians who do 'cover music', in the country, jazz, rock fields, and I recognize that there is a huge amount of talent required to do it right. Hey, on those rare occasions when I get hired to do an actual country gig (as in doing Ray Price shuffles) I *love* copping as much of the original turnarounds or solos as I can remember (after all, I learned to play pedal steel by stealing as much as I could from Buddy and Jimmy on these records).

But the bands I love to listen to (and those I love to play with) are those where the players interpret the music according to how they feel it. Should Charlie Parker have messed with the arrangement of 'Back Home in Indiana' to make 'Donna Lee'? (ditto every jazz player who has interpreted a standard). What about that great Ray Price band in the early 60s with Day and/or Emmons? They certainly messed with the classic 50s Ray Price sound to produce something new and exciting. I also remember a pretty amazing night in a country club in Nashville in the mid 70s when a young Paul Franklin plays a brilliant McCoy Tyner influenced solo on the C6th neck on 'Rockytop'. But when those musicians were playing those songs, they were creating, they were doing something new.

I don't think it's a sin to play covers or do the original solos or fills. I do it myself all the time. For example, I play in a band with a guitar and banjo legend named Danny Barnes (Bad Livers) doing classic country material. I usually go as close as I can to the original turnaround and solo. But then in this particular band there are maybe 10 verses worth of solos, so we typically go pretty far afield of the original. A few months ago I did a series of gigs with a band which covered a couple of AC/DC and Black Sabbath songs, and I was tickled to try to reproduce the original parts (no guitar player in the band).

But the issue for me is the external mandated playing of a specific solo or turnaround. When good musicians get together and decide to cop the original arrangement and parts for a song, that's great. When a singer/manager/producer/club owner requires a musician to cop a specific part, that's when I lose interest in being a part of the music.

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www.tyack.com
[This message was edited by Dan Tyack on 31 July 2004 at 03:13 AM.]

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 31 Jul 2004 8:40 am

I predict...I'm gonna have good days and bad days.

The good days are because now I've been playing long enough to call myself somewhat of a veteran. I've aquired some of the knowledge and experience that I got from years spent learning and refining my overall grasp of music and the instruments that I play. Because of this, I'm fortunate to get to play with many like minded musicians who always inspire me. On the good days, I'm always reminded that there is a higher power that gave us music in the first place.

The bad days are when I see things from a cynical and cloudy standpoint, where nothing
seems to sound right to my ears. Sometimes it's hard just to find the reason that you do this in the first place. Those are the days when everything I play feels like it's no more than auto-pilot drivel. Then there's the looming specter of arthritis or hearing loss or other horrible prospects that seem to come with advancing age.

Overall, I still do it for the predictable good days.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 31 Jul 2004 9:56 am

Mr T.

Good heartedly speaking, it sounds like there are two Dans

(I liked your posts Dan. They explained a lot of how I feel about using creativity in my playing, and performance.)

I think live playing runs the gamut, and It's great to be able to call up either the "old licks", or get spurred on by a guitar player, or another musician in the band and indeed "go into new frontiers". Myself, I'd rather work with a band that takes the time to work out things in a "predictable manner", than those that just send out a set list, and go out willy nilly and thrash it all together. Ideally, with one that encourages some structure, but doesnt glare at you collectively when you play a Solo From Mars™ when it's "your turn". Hell, it might come from something you remembered from WAY back, or something you just got the itch to play.

A lot of us would have given our eye teeth to play on the road with Dottie, Jeannie, et al, but I know from the years on the 80s that I did in road bands, albiet none as distinguished, was mostly negative because of the sleeping quarters, eating elephant ears, and canned food out of the can. Then, a lot of the music was just an irritation to get to a day off to go to a local river, or another long drive..

I doubt if it was that hard on your playing

Mainly I think the thrust of the original post was that the poster doesn't like what the steel players here locally are playing, characterizing what he heard as "repetative pedal smashing".

Knowing him personally, I'm putting forth that in the twenty five years I've known him, when he's come out to see me, there was always something about my playing, my guitar, or the band that he didn't like. Now we're hearing about it on a worldwide publication.

I for one, can type too..

Maybe we here locally could get a collection up and move him up to Seattle,( I liked the gigs I used to do at Montana's in the 80s)
and see what he thinks of youse guys..

OR, he can post some examples or suggestions as to what he would like us to play to be more in line with his specific expectations.

I've heard the bands he's played with over the last 25 years, and I don't really know what his complaint is. I didn't hear a lot of improvisation. I could only read so much into the periods of silence..

I played last night at a great "alt' country" venue with a brand new band that di "retro" stuff. Tonite I'm playing a private get together at a golf course in Molalla in my regular band. It's gonna pay my monthly cellular bill. (503)209 9012.

Next weekend, the 6-7, I'm playing at the much vilified, haven for the ungenteel, Jubitz Ponderosa Lounge. off exit 307. Follow the Diesel signs, I'll pay your cover if you promise not to burn me on the World Wide Web, and I'll be glad to "improvise" or not use my pedals for as long as you want. They won't fire me. It's the best paying venue in town, and I can play whatever I want. I usually play a mixture of stuff without dragging the spotlight onto myself while the bandleader is trying to sing a song.

Mostly, I'm just enjoying my dabbling in my favorite sins. Musical or otherwise.

And getting paid for it.

I'm booked at jobs I like for once, every weekend til Xmas, and god only knows what new amp settings, licks, or pedal stomps I'll use.

I can't even predict that.

As always, any resemblance of any arm chair icon, living or undead, performing or not, is purely incidental.

All is Vanity. Greed is replacing Lust for me personally..

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 31 July 2004 at 11:01 AM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 31 Jul 2004 10:23 am

If I get to play at least 3 solos from Mars in a gig, I've been successful.

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www.tyack.com

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 31 Jul 2004 10:32 am

How much time do I spend ( behind the steel) creating new stuff.
Almost all of it.

I have leraned licks from other people. but only to have them as part of my bag of tricks.
And there are some great licks to be had from fine players and fine people.

So If I DON'T sound like everybodies favorite steelers... tough tacos.

We have just added a singing version of Ashokan Farewell to an album, and I am debating doing a steel part.
But it will be C6, no chance I will try E9, Lloyds version is definitive.
And we don't need another Lloyd![This message was edited by David L. Donald on 31 July 2004 at 11:35 AM.]

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 31 Jul 2004 11:05 am

Yes.

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Drew's Website

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 31 Jul 2004 4:37 pm

Being relatively new to the pedal steel guitar, I'd have to say MY playing is TOTALLY unpredictable. Not my intention, just my misfortune

Pehaps I should work on "predictable" steel licks, rather than whimsical retorts, indecipherable parables, or inside jokes, here on the Forum.
Or not.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 31 Jul 2004 6:14 pm

I doubt if it was that hard on your playing

Trust me, playing the happiest freakin' girl in the freaking USA night after night will put some serious bad juju on your playing. It's taken me years to undo that karma.

(not to mix religious metaphors)

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 31 Jul 2004 9:02 pm

I guess when you get down to it my playing is not predictable unless the music needs a certain thing.

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Bob
intonation help

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 31 Jul 2004 9:37 pm

This is a thought provoking topic and a good one!

Predicatable? What is predicatable?

As for my playing probably so to an extent, but others, yes, also I think to an extent. "Creatures of habit," that is what I heard Jimy Crawford term us steelers once. Truth in that statement, you bet!

Yet, I think we all want or desire to search for that right note, right lick, right song, am I right?

We all love steel guitar, lest we not be her, right?

My playing predictable well yes, probably, but I am STEEL SEARCHING? Yes, all the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Learning is eternal.

Woody

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 31 Jul 2004 9:42 pm

Please excuse the previous typos! WOW! This is a thought provoking topic and a good one!

Predicatable? What is predicatable?

As for my playing probably so to an extent, but others, yes, also I think to an extent. "Creatures of habit," that is what I heard Jimmy Crawford term us steelers once. Truth in that statement, you bet!

Yet, I think we all want or desire to search for that right note, right lick, right song, am I right?

We all love steel guitar, lest we not be here, right?

My playing predictable well yes, probably, but I am STEEL SEARCHING? Yes, all the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I believe that learning is eternal.

Woody

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 1 Aug 2004 5:28 am

Well..I am enjoying reading responses on this topic. No matter where it started. It certainly is a serious topic for me. What is really cool is that I am approximately 8,000 miles from the last post I added, and about a day later here in Sydney. But in my 16 hour flight I managed to re-read Jamey Abersol's book "getting it together". Great book. Wow,if this doesn't open your mind to musical non-predictablity nothing will. And I wonder how many of us would be more creative, less predictable and having a great time playing music at least when the gig didn't require us having to play signiture licks on the "money neck". a lot of the players we have been influenced by started out 40+ years ago on a strait steel, playing off sheet music from a Oahu music course. With all this great music to listen to these days it inspires me to think of all the great music we have within ourselves if we just strive to set it free.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 1 Aug 2004 9:05 am

Hey there John Steele: Sorry if my reference to Jerry Byrd offended you in any way......after all, that was NOT my intention. My post was meant to get some answers about a "key question" in steel guitar playing.......in other words, I'd hoped to open the door to what I believed might be a worthy topic since it is an area that often is abused, knowingly or unwittingly, by some players. I was interested how others of you, looked AT THIS POINT.
I was not fully aware, until now, just how many steel players in this forum had such thin skins, HUGE EGOS, and tend to believe that because others are talking, they certainly must be talking about them specifically. WHEW!

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 1 Aug 2004 9:14 am

Roger Rettig: I find your comments to be much in line with my own thinking. We all have certain "signature sounds" and licks or runs or favorites that we might fall back on whenever the need arises........and this is as it should be. No harm done.
Your point "the lick mentality is a musical cul-de-sac" is exactly what I was attempting to address but you did a much better job of describing it than did I. THANKS to YOU!
Simply stated going to play a gig with memorized licks all strung together in the hope it will make "Music"......and then to use it in virtually every song throughout the evening is selling one's self short.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 1 Aug 2004 9:26 am

Appreciate YOUR fine response...TONY PRIOR.

Jerry Byrd once said: (Oooops! There I mentioned that guys' name again, sorry about that.) Hope I didn't offend too many of you.
Certainly not my attempt.

But Jerry did say..........if you, as a musician, ever reach a point where you're totally happy with what you're playing, day to day, you likely will NEVER IMPROVE or discover your very true potential. Not an exact quote, but I believe it fairly gives the essence of his thought. It made sense to me. There are some pickers I've met down thro' the years that never improved much beyond their third or fourth year of learning to play. Same picking or barring mistakes; same faulty phrasing; lousey back-up; steadfastly playing out of tune; rushing or dragging throughout their "solo" part. Now that is what I call "predictable playing"

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 1 Aug 2004 9:32 am

Mark Van Allen.... Your comments are right on the money. Great points and explained exceptionally well, IMHO.
Gary Carpenter from down in Texas, displays alot of "class" in his playing.........never repeats the same tired old lick. Quite unpredictable!
It makes for great listening pleasure which is what the truly "great ones" long ago discovered.........and that's why we admire them so very much....thanks Mr. Emmons, John H. and the many others like you.