Forcing yourself to play less...

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 30 Jun 2004 6:48 am

Hello,

I don't mean spending less time playing/practicing of course. I was listening to some mixes of an album I am working on with a band, and was appalled at how I had overplayed on a few sections. I remember when I was recording it feeling energized and inspired and all, and the track is in tune and phrased, but there's just too much of it. Do you have any tricks for controlling the impulse to play too much?

I should note that this particular band is instrumental, thus I am not playing in the holes. Apparently my tendency was to try to fill up the space, which probably wasn't the right thing to do. Maybe I should just put the bar down more often!

Thanks for reading my post and for any advice you may have.

Kevin Chriss · Post by **Kevin Chriss** » 30 Jun 2004 8:19 am

Sure, I have a lead guitarist that will beat me up if I overplay!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 30 Jun 2004 8:28 am

Maybe I should just put the bar down more often!

Yup, that's the answer. As soon as you finish a solo, end it by putting your bar DOWN! Then, just lean back in your packaseat with your arms folded across your chest and enjoy listening to the next guy's solo, without even thinking about what you could be doing ON TOP of it!

Lord knows, I need to take more of my own advice, and this only applies assuming you have some other instrument (e.g., rhythm guitar or piano) comping the changes, so you don't need to play "rhythm steel".

One player who has impressed me tremendously on this point is Tom Morrell, who plays exactly this way and so do the rest of the soloists in his band. If it's not their turn to solo or fill, they are O.U.T.[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 30 June 2004 at 09:31 AM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 30 Jun 2004 8:30 am

"...the artist never gets tired of hearing himself." ... a producer commenting on the problem with having more recording time available on cd's than there was on vinyl.

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 30 Jun 2004 9:08 am

Don't worry Gerald they will take care of you in the mix down.

Roger

John Knight · Post by **John Knight** » 30 Jun 2004 9:38 am

The hardest thing for me to learn and get a feel for is the overall sound. As lead players we are all just one part of a bigger mix and sound. Get a handle on that and what your part is in the big mix everyone will be happy pickers.

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D 10 Thomas with 8&6, '61'D-10 Sho-Bud 8&3
S12 Knight 6&4
Nashville 400 and Profex II
81' Fender Twin JBL's
Asleep at the Steel

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 30 Jun 2004 10:15 am

Great post Gerald! This is something I've struggled with, too. I have to keep reminding myself to "play the song", not just the guitar. On the occassions when I get it right, the few notes I choose to play shine out and have better emotive quality, than if I had filled all the space available. One thing I do is to back off the volume pedal completely, if I catch myself overplaying. I can still follow the changes silently with the bar, and pick my spots by applying volume. Sometimes it is good to just lay the bar down, but in a live performance, this leaves you with nothing to occupy your hands. Mostly I think it's an ear thing and learning to listen to the overall mix.

Ben Slaughter · Post by **Ben Slaughter** » 30 Jun 2004 11:17 am

Sing harmony, put the mic in a position where you have to look up to get to it, and look away from your guitar. Give you something else to think about. Shouldn't be playing fancy licks while someone's singing a phrase anyway, right? A whole note chord, sure, but you don't want to step all over everyone else, that's the guitar player's job.

Mr. Jeff Newman had an article about this in the Steel Guitarist Mag #1 issue. (Which is available for purchase on this forum, click the "Magazines" link at the upper right).

The art of country music is knowing when NOT to play. (I heard that somewhere)

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Ben
Zum D10, NV400, TubeFex, POD, G&L Guitars, etc, etc.
[This message was edited by Ben Slaughter on 30 June 2004 at 12:19 PM.]

Ed Byerly · Post by **Ed Byerly** » 30 Jun 2004 11:18 am

With a 4 pc. band, laying out altogether really leaves a lot to be desired, however, nice full chords (played at a low volume) will give the more than enough fill. You would be taking a keyboard player's job (hopefully)or the place of a rythm guitar. Listen to a band without a steel & see what is being played in the background while the lead guitar or fiddle is playing, etc. Experiment (no train wrecks of course). Some folks get it, but others don't. Bless my wife, but if I ask her how it all sounds, she'll tell me that she can hear me about 1/2 of the time, but the rest of the time I must not be loud enough. I just smile and say thank you! Ed

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Carter S-12, Nashville & Vegas 400, Digitech Quad.

Ed Byerly
Wild in Northwest Ohio

Bob Storti · Post by **Bob Storti** » 30 Jun 2004 11:28 am

Here are some of the reasons I like to put the bar down and lay out of sections:

1 - Strings last longer; less breakage.

2 - More time for drinking.

3 - More time for girl watching.

4 - More time for making faces at the drummer.

5 - And most importantly, it's more musical.

Too much of any solo instrument is not a good thing. Remember the two Golden Rules of gigging:

1) Less is More.
2) You get paid by the Night, not by the Note!

Bob

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 30 Jun 2004 1:35 pm

Like Scott said ---- and by the way---you should hear him "sing along" while playing "Night Life" wow !!! I bet Ray Charles smiles down now when he hears him doing it !!

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 30 Jun 2004 1:37 pm

An example of "over-playing" might be more visible if you listen to a RAPPER do his thing. They're talking SOOOOOOOOO Much, that they often have very little time to take in a breath. Great example of "over playing".

Bob Wood · Post by **Bob Wood** » 30 Jun 2004 8:19 pm

Gerald,

Have you tried just doing some rhythmic padding with three strings (triads) at a lower volume than what you would do with the fills? Sometimes just laying down the bar and looking like a bump on a log doesn't cut it. I sat in on a Jeff Newman seminar one time when he was showing us how to play rhythm and you know what? It works! Try playing some triads every other beat, or every four beats.

Bob

Tore Blestrud · Post by **Tore Blestrud** » 30 Jun 2004 9:20 pm

Great topic. What helps me is playing alot with different (and as good as possible) bands. They'll give you feedback on what you are doing. Overplaying will not get you hired again. As you get more experienced you'll hopefully know when to play and not. In the studio I'm ofthen asked to play a lot, and the mixdown will remove most of it....
http://www.geocities.com/tblestrud/index.html

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 30 Jun 2004 9:45 pm

Learn to play rhythm parts. They're actually just as challenging as lead parts, but they don't interfere with anything. Try playing low chords in sync with the rhythm guitarist or accordianist, for example. Done right, it makes the song sound richer, not busier.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 30 June 2004 at 10:46 PM.]

Mark Krutke · Post by **Mark Krutke** » 30 Jun 2004 9:56 pm

Good point Bob.

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Paul King · Post by **Paul King** » 1 Jul 2004 4:23 am

We have all probably been guilty of over playing. I read a statement made by Jeff Newman once when he said he gets paid more for not playing than he does playing. It might have been someone else but it sure sounds like Newman. It does put a burr in my pack-a-seat when I play with others who play constantly. I have always felt it was simple, if it not your time to play just don't play.

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 1 Jul 2004 6:12 am

Cool ideas all, everybody, thanks for replying. I had a rehearsal last night with just a guitar player and tried some of your suggestions. Funny how much more professional it sounds to play more simply and not play at all. I am singing backup for this guy too, and if there's a better way to force yourself to play less than singing and playing, I don't know what it is. Pretty fun to just play "rhythm steel" and then fills while singing.

I think Greg Leisz is probably the master of this approach, which probably explains why he gets such great gigs.

Doug Ferguson · Post by **Doug Ferguson** » 1 Jul 2004 8:45 am

I think the best compliment you can get as a steel player is to be told you don't play enough. I've played in two bands since I started playing steel. A 5 piece, with 2 guitars, bass and drums and me. I've listened to some recordings of us performing and yuck. I never liked what I heard because I always overplayed, trying to give us more fullness or something. I was being told I didn't play enough then too but I think as a whole, we just kind of stunk as a band. The 6 piece band I played in had 2 guitars, keyboards, bass, drums and me. One of the guitars always played rhythm while the other had lead, or both played rhythm while me or the keyboayd had leads. I sat out a lot. But, the recordings I heard of us were real nice and I always anticipated my next fill or lead part while listening, which is probably what those people who told me I needed to play more were doing... I can only hope they didn't mean "I needed to practice more"

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Fergy, MSA Classic D12

Whip Lashaway · Post by **Whip Lashaway** » 1 Jul 2004 12:50 pm

Bobby Lee--Ditto man. I've played in bands that called for me to sit on my hands occasionally. I've also played for bands that got irritated when I stopped playing. With TruSouth I do a little of both. Sometimes the band leader just wants me to create a low dronning sound behind the rest of the band. Some of the songs he says" Hey man this is all you". I think a mature player will know when to get after it and when to sit back and listen. It's just a matter of time folks, we'll all get there evenually!!!! Whip

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Whip Lashaway
Sierra E9/B6 12 string
Sierra E9/B6 14 string
78' Emmons D10 P/P

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 1 Jul 2004 2:14 pm

A lot of times I play rhythm chops on the upbeat, just to keep the beat sharp.

Drew

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Drew's Website

Rich Weiss · Post by **Rich Weiss** » 1 Jul 2004 2:46 pm

It's kind of a psychological thing. When you play too much you're really saying, 'look at me.' Only lead singers can say that.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 1 Jul 2004 4:01 pm

I suppose for some people, once a year is about enough.. Silence being Golden and all...

EJL

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 1 Jul 2004 5:28 pm

Attention to form is important, and I hate overplaying. To me the most frustrating thing is going into a studio and being told to "play all the way through, and we'll keep what we want".
Last time, when I heard the finished product it was wall-to-wall steel. Yuk.
-John

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