Chordal Dysfunction.. Ouch!!

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Dec 2003 3:19 pm

Bobby Lee,

It's unbelievable that I've made two errors in one short reply. Please note that I've added the F tone to the second chord. The 5 tones are needed for special effect. Once again those notes are, C,F,A,G,E. Many steel guitarists prefer single 10 instruments. The C pitch is the bottom note, and the Bb is the bottom of the other frame. - (Bb,C#,E,A.) - I haven't tried scrambling the notes. Thanks for helping to probe a little deeper, and for noticing my errors.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 20 December 2003 at 06:54 AM.]

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 19 Dec 2003 3:41 pm

Or if you have a full tone raise on 7th string you can play the same closed voicing at 1st fret
<pre>
F#--------------
Eb--------------
G#--1#----1-----
E---1b----1-----
B---1#----1-----
G#--------------
F#--1##---1##---
E---------------
D---------------
B---------------
</pre>
Note: Half Apedal for the A C# E Bb voicing

Bengt

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Dec 2003 4:43 pm

The range of the E9th at any fret is slightly less than 2 octaves. If the notes C,F,A,G,E are desired in order of ascending pitch, that limit is exceeded. Those notes are, however, available on the C6th neck, which has a greater range.

The interval distance from the low C to the high E in your voicing is 2 1/3 octaves, beyond the range of the 10 string E9th.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Dec 2003 5:41 pm

Bill, the chord you are refering to that is voiced A,E,C#,Bb, which is played before the F chord, is a C13b9 chord without the root. This is actually fairly commonly orchestrated and a very pretty (though a little old-fashioned IMHO) extended dominant 7th harmony that is also one of the signature C6 harmonies. On C6, it is played at the 4th fret on consecutive strings 2,3,4,5, using pedals 5,6. And like b0b said, on the E9 tuning, it can be easily played at the C7 position at the 8th fret on strings 5,6,8,9 using the A,F pedals.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 19 December 2003 at 05:50 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 19 Dec 2003 7:01 pm

Bobby Lee,

If a steel is tuned to D9th chromatic, "C13b9th" can be found at the open tuning, (no bar), but it requires a wide grip of 5 notes. I know that you will easily reason, that the C would be at the 9th string, the F would be at the raised 7th string, A at the 5th string, G at the raised 3rd string, and lastly the E at the 1st string. Wouldn't it be fair to assume, that should you switch keys, and play in the key of G, it is then possible to play as indicated, only the notes have changed to D,G,B,A,F#. Thanks for your interesting display of steel guitar savvy.

I can't thank Jeff L., and Bengt E. enough, for their professional input. I look forward to further studies, hoping to learn as I go.

Bill H.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 19 Dec 2003 8:32 pm

Bill, you're very welcome. Anytime you'd like to work on a harmony arrangement (actually, a RE-harmonization) for a tune, especially a jazz arrangement, put out a topic. I consider it a learning experience for myself as well since it gives me the opportunity to think an arrangement out in a serious way. Otherwise, if I just do it for myself, I take too many short cuts and skip over the tough parts. It's a big help to have a real goal. Happy Holidays to you and your family.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 20 Dec 2003 1:51 am

Jeff L.

There are always situations in naming chords properly, and I will spend some time delving into further studies which tend to resolve into a bit of logic. Certain same tone patterns can represent chords ranging from 6th, 11th, and 13th, chords for example. Is this a fair assumption on my part?

Jeff, moving on to an additional unrelated song selection, do you have a chordal arrangement for "AMONG MY SOUVENIRS" ? The bridge of the beautiful song calls for a series of one beat, quick change chords that go beyond triads. I'm so impressed with your interest in chord theory, that I can't resist making this request. Happy Holidays!

Bill H.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 20 Dec 2003 2:06 am

Bill H.
Thanks for starting this tread. Learned quite a bit about the steel tryin to figure out where to find that voicing.

And for C F A G E..... no need to detune the guitar.
<pre>
F#-----------
Eb--1--------
G#-----------
E---1C---1---
B--------1---
G#--1----1---
F#-----------
E---1----1---
D------------
B---1----1---
</pre>

I used the Cpedal to get a nice symmetry of strings for the C F A G E notes. Sounds really nice if you play one note at a time and let them all ring before playing the F chord at the end. I think the same idea can be applied other places as well.

The E at 2nd string can be played as is or as a harmonic at 13th fret while the other notes are still ringing. Then 2 1/3 octave is within the reach of the E9 neck

And even cooler: If you have the PFped/lever that raise 1&7 F#-G# & 2 to E on the guitar you can resolve all the ringing notes to a F-chord by releasing C pedal and raise the 2nd string a halftone.

merry Xmas

Bengt Erlandsen[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 20 December 2003 at 04:45 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 20 Dec 2003 5:05 am

Bengt E.,

I am very pleased, after reading your reply, stating, that after sleuthing briefly through various note possibilities,you've hit on to something useful. I wanted to point out that the first aforementioned applicable chord, should be played before the C,F,A,G,E, chord. I'm "inquisitive" about locating the note sequences, in this order, on the standard E9th setup: From the bottom - ( Bb,C#, E, C.) The low note Bb, is the hang-up note, unless I'm incorrect in assuming so. Playing out of the 5th fret, seems to be the proper location to tie the notes together. Thanks...

Bill H.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 20 Dec 2003 6:36 am

Every time I find a new way of playing a voicing on the steel I am very pleased

thanks for helping in that direction.
Any more problem voicings and I'll go for a new search to hopefully find it within a standard 3+5 setup on the E9
The Bb C# E C voicing would be available on open strings 10 9 8 5 (w a B-Bb lower on 10 & 5) C-pedal & lower 2&9 - C#.

I hope I understood all voicings correctly. If I spell out the notes of a chord/voicing I always start w the lowest note.
Anyway a C13b9 to a F chord is very easy on my S12extE9
strings 12 9 6 5 4 w Aped and F-lever( I only raise 8&4 to F, 12th string stays unchanged)
then the same strings
12 9 6 5 4 w A+B and 9th str lowered to C#

<pre>
C13b9 F
F#----------
Eb----------
G#----------
E---8#---8--
B---8##--8##
G#--8----8#-
F#----------
E-----------
D---8----8b-
B-----------
G#----------
E---8----8--
</pre>

Bengt[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 20 December 2003 at 07:09 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 20 Dec 2003 8:47 am

Bengt E.,

I once had a perfect augmented knee lever for the 5th half tone raise. I was pretty sure that I would regret removing it someday. Well, the day has come. I need that accurate change to be in place, to facilitate accuracy in playing 4 note chords. For quite some time, the 7th string possibilities have haunted my slumber. I will be bringing it under scrutiny soon to add the extra changes. By all means, please know that I appreciate your help.

Bill H.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 20 Dec 2003 11:05 am

Bill-I have played "Blue Christmas" and "Tea for Two "with full chords for every melody note. I figured that was the way I was supposed to play all my songs.

My good friend Jack Blanchette, (who was a great guitarist) used to say "There goes ole Al again grabbing a handful of chords"

But, many have told me, "to keep it simple stupid" and I just couldn't do it very well. I've been a little sorry about that......al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 20 Dec 2003 2:45 pm

There are always situations in naming chords properly, and I will spend some time delving into further studies which tend to resolve into a bit of logic

With respect to knowing what chord is spelled out by a bunch of notes, you have to know the function of the chord. In the case of the A-E-C#-Bb, the reason I knew the correct name was C13b9 was based on you telling me that it was the chord that resolved to tonic F. This meant it was a C7 chord of some sort, based on my assumption that the root would be C, the dominant note of the F scale. Assuming a C7 chord, it was just a matter of looking at the notes, which formed a fairly traditional C13b9 voicing. Like you said, there is a certain amount of analysis and study that can be done to figure these things out, but in many cases like this, the most basic assumptions are the correct ones. I'll try to get to listen to "Among My Souvenirs" over the weekend.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 20 Dec 2003 2:52 pm

Also, with respect to the C-F-A-E-G, if that chord is played after the C13b9, and before the F tonic, then it could be an F-based chord reinforcing the tonic maybe one beat in advance. In that case, it would be an Fmaj9 chord, also an easy C6 chord played at the 5th fret with pedal 7, although the notes would be voiced differently.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 20 December 2003 at 03:18 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 20 Dec 2003 3:57 pm

Al M.,

Al, you've taken me by surprise. Honestly, "TEA FOR TWO", who would think that others would have had arrangements, and actually played through the melody lines, using proper chords. This is great news. Is there any chance at all that you would be willing to reveal your arrangement? If not in its entirety, then just a sampling, perhaps a few lines, showing what, where, and when, you use specific chords. I play the song in G#, or Ab, whichever you prefer in naming chords. Could you refer to the key that you like the most? This is an ideal song for making comparisons, due to the rich chordal changes required to bring out the melody. Thanks for letting me know that you're "out there", and for elaborating further on the subject of proper chord usages.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 25 December 2003 at 07:03 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 20 Dec 2003 8:29 pm

Al, I would love to see your changes too. Maybe we can play around with them a bit and see what we can come up with. You're one of the very few who have seriously played this stuff in real orchestral settings.

------------------
Jeff's Jazz
[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 20 December 2003 at 08:30 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 21 Dec 2003 3:44 am

I was reading through the posts on this forum, including the voluminous comments on chord knowledge, when a thought came to mind. For some reason I thought that, just maybe, the most progressive chord related activity, would be, to promptly come to terms with problematic chord theory, by locating someone who is willing to share their expertise. If they are prepared to resolve a complex issue, where chordal dysfunction has invariably disrupted melody lines, much benefit can be realized.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 21 December 2003 at 10:22 AM.] [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 21 December 2003 at 12:25 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Dec 2003 4:55 am

Bill the reason I keep studying is because I don't understand everything I want to.

And that's the same reason I advocate it.

Jeff L. thinks theory circles around me.
For which I am grateful, because we are in contact and I learn things.

When I am not sure about a grouping of notes, I write them out and look at each note as a possible root and spell them all out.

My manouche band has a Tea For Two arrangement, starts as a bass and guitar slow drag blues, adds two guitars and a double tempo. for the head, faster still for two solos, and then octave unisons with two guitars for a fast head out.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 21 December 2003 at 05:10 AM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 21 Dec 2003 7:28 am

David D.,

I do not wish to be crude by requesting more information from you, about the chords used in the relatively minimal playing time of "TEA FOR TWO". It would be of great interest to me, if you could place the chord changes over the words of the song. It would be a real treat, to make comparisons, of chordal interpretations. Thanks...

Bill H.

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 21 Dec 2003 1:34 pm

David D.,

I should have mentioned that there is a world of difference in single note melody, and chord melody. My arrangement of "TEA FOR TWO" consists of 4 and 5 string grab chord melody. I think we may be on a totally different wave length, like "apples and oranges". In other words, I'm speaking of no accompaniment. Juat a steel guitarist, and his instrument, in a favorite room, playing chord melody.

Bill H.[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 22 December 2003 at 03:19 AM.][This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 25 December 2003 at 01:54 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 24 Dec 2003 10:03 pm

Tea For Two

[Bbm7 , Eb7 ,][Bbm7 , Eb7 ,]
[AbM7 , Db7 ,][Cm7 , Bdim7 ,]
[Bbm7 , Eb7 ,][Bbm7 , Eb7 ,]
[AbM7 , Bbm7 ,][Cm7 , DbM7 ,]
[Dm7 , G7 ,][Dm7 , G7 ,]
[CM7 , F7 ,][Em7 , A7 ,]
[Dm7 , G7 ,][Dm7 , G7 ,]
[CM7 , , ,][Bbm7 , Eb7 ,]
[Bbm7 , Eb7 ,][Bbm7 , Eb7 ,]
[AbM7 , Db7 ,][Cm7 , Bdim7 ,]
[Bbm7 , Eb7 ,][Bbm7 , Eb7 ,]
[Cm7b5 , , ,][F7b9 , , ,]
[Bbm7 , F7 ,][Gb7 , F7 ,]
[Adim7 , Bbm7 ,][DbmM7 , Gb7 ,]
[Ab/C , Bdim7 ,][Bbm7 , Eb7 , ]
[AbM7 , , , ][AbM7 , , ,]

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Dec 2003 3:06 am

Jeff L.,

If my interpretations of your chord listings are correct, they will send me packing, and require a brief visit back to "class study". I'm having a little difficulty accepting the total substitution of minor 7th chords, and the absence of a single minor chord. If this is the final word on chord arrangement, which may have been accepted widely, by the vast majority of reliable musicians, I will have some work to do. The only comment, that I would like to make, is, that... the wide grip (4 and 5) strings grabs, effectively bring out the prerequisite positioning, of 4 tone chords, such as dim 7th and major 7th inversions. I feel that attention should be focused on, shying away from 4 tone chords, while substituting triads, where chordal instruction clearly indicates a missing tone.

Bill H. [This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 25 December 2003 at 06:21 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Dec 2003 7:31 am

Bill, we aren't singing it. it
Is a jazz manouche version.
But here are the chords we use

[ Bbm7 / Eb7 / | Bbm7 / Eb7 / | Abmaj7 / Bbm7 / | Cm7 / Bdim/ |Bbm7 / Eb7 / | Bbm7 / Eb7 / | Abmaj7 / / / | / / / /|

| Dm7 / G7 / | Dm7 / G7 / |Cmaj7 / Dm7 / | Em7 / Ebdim / | Dm7 / G7 / | Dm7 / G7 / | C7 / / / | Eb7 / / / |

| Dm7 / G7 / | Dm7 / G7 / |Cmaj7 / Dm7 / | Em7 / Ebdim / | Dm7 / G7 / | Dm7 / G7 / | Cm7b5 / / / | F9b / / / |

| Bbm / Cm7b5 / | Bbm / F7 / | Bbm6 / / / | Dbm6 / / / | Ab6 / Bdim / |Bbm7 / Eb7 / | Ab6 / / / | / / / /]

Manouche surely is jazz, but it has a slightly altered sense of harmoninization.
Sometimes more complicated, sometimes less.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 25 December 2003 at 01:25 PM.]

Bill Hankey · Post by **Bill Hankey** » 25 Dec 2003 8:44 am

David D,

I would guess that all that remains is the chance to hear your "T 4 Two" arrangement at close range, where the full impact of your expertise can be enjoyed by others. Steel guitar shows have provided the opportunity for the artist to share their artistry to attendees, whether or not they play the steel guitar. Surprisingly, there are those who do not play the instrument, but their fondness for the instrument is quite obvious, as they marvel at the bright tones, found in no other recorded music. It has been shown, that the steel guitar can call up fond memories, and lift the spirits to new plateaus, by renewing youthful dreams of succeeding in achieving personal goals. Not once, have I regretted trying to reach an acceptable level of playing the steel guitar. The rewards are based on the time spent with the instrument.

Bill H.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Dec 2003 1:27 pm

Bill we haven't recorded this one yet.
I also am just playing upright on it.
But I imagine it's interesting on steel too.
We are due for another session.